I Want to Understand Why Gas Prices are So Damned High
 

How come they're so high?

For 8 years we heard it was all George Bush's fault.

Now he's been gone for 4 years (many would say 6) and they are higher than ever.

What gives? I just don't understand. Can someonne edumacate me?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A..._5vBe45-GKSXkn

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~nas34/images/donkey2.gif

All you need to know!

Pretty much what I thought in a nutshell. I guess there's no need to delve into specifics.

LOL.

Now THIS is a deep rabbit hole. Unfortunately it is not so easily explained by pointing the finger at one or the other of our up and out standing political parties.

I'd like to suggest to everyone that there is no shortage of oil. Read it again. There is NO SHORTAGE of oil. There is less now than there was 100 years ago of course, but supply has adequately paced demand and will continue to do so. There is plenty of untapped oil in the world when the liberals decide they need it.

And no, drilling more North American Oil isn't going to lower the price of a gallon of gas enough to make a difference. Who Dat Cat can relax. LOL

When you ask an 'industry expert', he or she will counter will all sorts of complications. And it is accurate to say there are more than a handful of variables that determine both the price of a barrel of oil and the price for a gallon of gasoline.

Here's the rub. Oil is a globally-traded commodity. It doesn't matter that the United States in fact EXPORTS a LOT of oil. It doesn't matter, in fact, that the United States IMPORTS MOST of it's oil from Canada. Oh yes. That is true. We get MOST of our oil from Canada. Our Next biggest? Mexico. Thaaaaats, rite.

Long range tankers have NO WHERE do drop oil in the United States with the lone exception of Louisiana. Yep. That's it. Smaller vessels bring it in from all over the world...but far less from the middle east than one might have been led to believe.

But that's really neither here nor there. The fact is the commodity is a global one and so, when Opec decides to have a tantrum everyone suffers, although not as much as Opec might wish. In fact Opec has FAR less control over the price of a gallon of gas than most believe. The power lies far from Iraq.

Did you know that when an oil company refines its gasoline, that the margin for profit for the oil company is, give or take, 80 cents a gallon? Bet most of you didn't know that. The media is stupid, or at least ignorant. It is expensive to locate and drill and transport and refine the stuff. Oil companies make a LOT of money. They spend a lot too...

Did you know that between federal and state taxes you're paying anywhere from 20 to 50 cents a gallon - maybe more, at the pump? Did you know it costs more to refine "summer" gas than fall and winter gas? Did you even know there was such a thing? "Summer" gas is refined to burn cleaner. Cleaner burning gas costs more to create. This is one of the reasons gas in California is more expensive than, say, Arkansas. Emission control out here is, well, out of control, but that's only semi-related.

So, we are all familiar with the real estate bubble. Something very similar happens with commodities. It's all a bet really. Speculators have created a gas 'bubble'. In fact many speculators involved in real estate a few years ago moved to the oil industry. You betcha Betsy...

Now you can blame the weak dollar, or Saudi Arabia who may very well want to cut its production as a means to make more money so it can squash a potential uprising or reward its people to prevent one all together. Yes, demand is higher in the summer and so prices typically (although not always because of a thousand other factors) rise accordingly.

There is also the issue of refineries. They are located in places where it is easy to get the oil to them, and of course these places are prone to mother nature's wrath from time to time, and when any one of them has to shut down because of a failure or a needed fix or upgrade then, well, that doesn't help. Being physically close to one is also beneficial if only in small amounts. This too is part of California's problem, and Hawaii's, and Alaska's, and so on.

But adding more refineries won't fix Wall Street, and Wall Street boys and girls is why you are currently paying 4 bucks a gallon and I'm in California paying 4.35 for freaking mid-grade.

Oh and that oil we get from Canada? It is uber-expensive to refine. Texas Intermediate, Dubai Crude, Brent Crude...all different. TI is the benchmark, but refining one is different than refining another. This all matters.

At the end of the day you can rightfully point your finger to any number of factors that in some way or other contribute to the increase or decrease in a gallon of gas. Remember though that speculators - the smarts ones - make money going up and going down. While many of the other factors that determine gas prices are in essence 'fixed', and by fixed I mean there are justifiable reasons for them, it is the Wall Street speculators who make the most difference. The fuel that pushes economies all over the world is subject to the many times knee-jerk reaction of Wall Street.

Should it be regulated? Absolutely. Is there a politician alive today with a pair big enough to do anything about it? Nope. Sorry.

The administration openly admitted this week that they are not seeking
to lower gas prices. High gas prices, they hope, will encourage
Americans to use alternative fuels. They're not even attempting to
hide this agenda. This doesnt come from anyone's editorial, this is
hard news this week.

I paid 3.81 today.

$4.09 Super Unleaded for me today!

I want to understand why gas prices are so darn high.
 

Ok, this is where I'm at ..... I hear a lot about why gas prices are high and continue to climb, but it's all from politicians and/or talk radio. Who can you trust? So, when I see in another thread saintfan offering a point of view I've never had available to me before, I want to hear it. SkyMike too, or anybody else from Texas and/or familiar with the oil industry.

I understand supply & demand and how increasing supply hypothetically would lower gas prices ..... except lately, that hasn't been happening. I understand the strength of the USDollar influences oil prices.

Then I hear gas prices remain high because there's a bottleneck at the refineries ..... we don't have to capacity to refine the fuel fast enough and need to build more. This pipeline broke, the Iranians are threatening the Straits of Hormus, the Saudis have cut back on production ..... it's always something. Who do you believe?

I don't understand oil. I'm familiar with the Strategic Oil Reserves, sweet crude, the fact we import most our oil from Canada, we're supposedly sitting on enough oil to last for generations and the fact that the internal combustion engine is the cheapest, most effective & ecomical way to do business.

But I don't understand why gas prices are so damn high.

Yeah, never mind there's no infrastructure to allow the general public access to alternative fuels. It's like putting the cart before the horse.

Just saw $3.99 for Regular Unleaded last night in my neck of the woods ... that's up .10/.15 in just the past few days.

Upon further review, I see it's already been addressed in a previous thread, http://blackandgold.com/ee/41978-i-w...mned-high.html.

In my opinion Wall Street (actually the New York Stock Exchange, NASDAQ, etc) is broken. Once upon a time (a phrase used to begin many a fairy tale) Wall Street was created as a place for businesses to raise capital. If you had a new idea for a business or needed to expand your business you sold a piece of the company as stock to private investors. Investors bought and sold stock in companies based upon their long-term perfornace, market trends, etc.

For nearly 200 years this worked really well.

Today, the whole system looks more like Vegas-east where money is bet not invested. Day traders buy and sell, flipping stocks so fast that the actual performance of a company is often not the issue at all. You make short term bets on stock, commonidites, etc and if you're a big enough player your bet moves the market. In short the game is fixed.

So, when traders, hedge fund managers, etc take positions on oil they have no intent on ever taking delivery. They are only betting the price will go up or down. This creates a false "demand" driving the price up or down and the traders win. Unfortunatley, for every winner there is also a looser and in this case it is us, the consumers.

Will the problem get fixed, highly unlikely. Wall Street money actually fixes two games. First, the trading process itself, as described above. Second, a chunk of the "profits" from the trades flow back to Washington in the form of campaign contributions, in short, protection money.

If you have a problem with low blood pressure I suggest reading Throw Them All Out by Peter Schweizer.

They pay well over 6 bucks a gallon in Europe. The 'lucky' folks in some places in Europe are paying just under 6 bucks a gallon.

It's $3.59 here in Nawlins. I did a little math. I basically work 2 full days for free every month. Between driving 73 miles a day, 5 sometimes 6 days a week, and $2.00 toll for the same said days. What you gonna do, there are bills to pay.

Across the river, Canadians are paying approx. $1.30CAN per litre, they also use an Imperial Gallon which is 4.5 litres/gallon as opposed to the US Gallon which is 3.78 litres/gallon. That translates into about $5.85 gallon. They've always had pretty high gas prices compared to us, but they get more gas per their gallon.

Read more: Windsor area gas prices predicted to hit $1.47

yeah ... for sure... although there have been a couple of new refineries come online recently, there are too many older ones that need updating.. and we need some new ones too just to keep up with demand.

We pay about $8 per gallon in Sweden right now. Our taxes on gas are really high. But I went trough college for free and don't pay much for healthcare so I'm pretty happy about it.

Taxes will be that high here eventually.

As high as a female giraffes' female part!

It would sound better if I could type it the way you say it.

... of course, we'll somehow miss the boat on the 'free college education' and 'discounted healthcare' while any new, additional taxes will be applied directly to bailing out another 'too big to fail' company, another Wall Street crisis or some other misguided Congressional bull**** ...

ask that Idiot George W (I'm an Idiot) Bush. Born in New Haven Ct.

OK, Professor Oil, now I know I am dealing with someone with at least a cursory knowledge of the subject. Not bad. So, you are saying that Obama ISN'T the cause of high gas prices? Huh. I guess you are going to tell me he ISN'T a Muslim and that evolution is, scientifically speaking, fact. OK, maybe that's going too far.

As to the role of speculators, they only magnify the speed and size of the price movement, but not the direction. As your Econ 101 professor taught you, when demand outstrips supply.....price will go where? That's right, it will go up. Where have gasoline prices gone over the last 40 years?

Shame on you SaintFan for not telling these good people the truth. We are headed for higher and higher gasoline prices because consumption of oil is outstripping supply.

But, there are three main areas that you did not cover, which I have outlined here:

1. Peak Oil Happened in 2008

For all of you who know that oil is a finite natural resource, meet me at the next paragraph. For those of you who believe in biblical-based oil, please see this article and I'll pray for you.

In 2008, the world consumed 5.3 million barrels more oil than it produced. That was a shortfall equal to the daily oil production of Kuwait and Iraq combined. By 2035, the projected shortfall will be 12.1 million barrels per day -- which is more than all the oil produced by Saudi Arabia per day.

Here is a short video about peak oil that is clear and well produced. It was made by an investment company, Casey Research, who really doesn't care whether the world is running out of oil or not, they just want to sell their research to clients who are willing to pay for it.

Peak Oil News explains the issue.

Here is the Wikipedia reference for Peak Oil.

In 1956 M. King Hubbert, a geologist for Shell Oil, predicted the peaking of US Oil production would occur in the late 1960s.
Although derided by most in the industry he was correct. He was the first to assert that oil discovery, and therefore production, would follow a bell shaped curve over its life. After his success in forecasting the US peak, this analysis became known as the Hubbert's Peak.

The amount of oil discovered in the US has dropped since the late 1930s. 40 years later, US oil production had peaked, and has fallen ever since.

World discovery of oil peaked in the 1960s, and has declined since then. If the 40 year cycle seen in the US holds true for world oil production, that puts global peak oil production, right about now; after which oil becomes less available, and more expensive.

2. Oil Subsidies and Tax Loopholes for Oil Companies ( see documentation here )

In 2010, total oil, gas and coal subsidies to fossil fuel Big Energy was $15 BILLION. That's billion with a "B". Below are just a few of the tax credits and subsidies that these companies took advantage of. At the same time, ExxonMobil, in 2010 -- made $30.46 billion in profit!@!@#%^! That is just pure PROFIT.

If you are worried about the U.S. federal debt, call your US representatives and demand that these tax loopholes and subsidies to Big Fossil Fuel be CLOSED immediately.

Here are the tax credits for fossil fuel Big Energy:

Severance Tax Exemptions for Crude Oil
Development Credit for Certain Producers
Exclusion of Low-Volume Oil & Gas Wells

Income support
Exception from Passive Loss Limitation

Support for capital formation
Expensing of Exploration and Development Costs
Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion
Temporary Expensing of Equipment for Refining
Aid to Small Refiners for EPA Capital Costs
Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit
Sales Tax Exemption for Oil & Gas Equipment
Qualified Capital Expenditure Credit
Alternative Credit for Exploration

Support for knowledge creation
Amortization of Geological Expenditure

Yes, there are politicians who fight Wall Street. Obama is one of them. But, that is a different topic.


3. Global Warming and Climate Change and why Big Fossil Fuel Companies need to pay for it

For those of you who believe that global warming is a hoax, please keep your head placed firmly up your @ss.

For the rest of you, there is a library amount of science that documents Global Warming and Climate Change. If you don't believe science, then, I wouldn't get on an airplane which uses the science of physics, chemistry, metallurgy and aerodynamics (among others) to make sure your plane stays in the sky.

If you need documentation of the fact of Global Warming, see these articles, the first of which impacts New Orleanians directly:

Rising Sea Levels Seen as Threat to Coastal U.S..

Global Warming from Wikipedia

The government of the Maldives just held a Cabinet Meeting underwater to highlight the dangers of climate change.

Oh I'm no professor oil, but as I have stated I know a great deal about it from personal experience and from talking to people who DO know a great deal about it. First hand. What I know wasn't filtered by a political party, a web site editor, or for the sake of all this is holy the NY Times. I could give a frogs fat green ass whether or not Obama is a Muslim. As for evolution, my view is actually extremely simple. It's my view and none of your business though. I only have those conversations with reasonable people.


Well, we have a revelation! Oil costs more now than it did 30 years ago! WOW! So does soda pop. Oh my GOD we're running out of Soda Pop! And Toothpaste! And Rubbers! Run for the hills. Interesting huh? The fundamental problem with you is that you believe demand is higher than supply. It is not. Believe whatever you wish - Stay on your current course of thinking and continue to be wrong. Fine by me.

Nope. You can lead a horse to water...etc. That's what the liberal media wants you to believe. Congratulations! You're a member of the club! There is plenty of oil in the world and you yourself said as much in the "Condon" thread. You'd do better to pick a side and stick with it. That's what Pelosi does.

I did speak to it. Certainly there is less now than before. There will be less tomorrow than there is today. This has precisely nothing to do with what you're playing at the pump. Not a single thing. That is what we (some of us anyway) are discussing. Get on point will you?

You can copy and paste with the best of them. Word to the wise: Quote that stuff when you do. You know you fully understand a topic when you can put it in your own words. Know what I mean? The point you continue to fail to grasp (willingly I suspect) is that peak oil, supply and demand, all that crap, has NOTHING to do with why oil prices have increased dramatically over the last month. Let me try and drill this point home (pardon the pun). NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Let that sink in and see if you can get back on topic.


And herein lies the real agenda. You hate oil companies. I mean, I knew this before we got started, but here it is in the open. Let me ask, do you hate ALL corporations? I bet not. At the very least I bet you don't spend any time blaming them for all the worlds problems. See the "Condon" thread for your homework assignment. It is enough to say in a single post in a single thread "I LOATHE BIG OIL COMPANIES". We get it. You can save a little face that way and many people will agree with you. But when you embark on a mission to pin the price of a gallon of gas on the mean old oil companies you have a dig WAY deeper it seems than you are willing to do.

No. In fact it IS the topic. That you don't get it is unfortunate.

And here's the motivation for your big oil hate. This is nothing new. You subscribe to a theory (and I'm sorry to tell you it's nothing more than that) wherein you are able to blame some big corporation for some possible worst case scenario. You need a fight. This is common among liberals - young ones especially. Most grow up and grow out of it. Some never see the light. They're the ones trying to ban toys from happy meals.


And do we really need to have the 'global warming' battle? Let me tell you how that will end. You will copy and paste a million articles from every source you can find (and there are many) and claim that this proves your point. You will have to copy and paste because you don't have the education to look at all the data it takes to make an intelligent assumption, and even if you did all you would be able to do is assume. This is all the scientists you're quoting are doing. I might be inclined to do the same, meeting every article with one that counters its point. This will go on and on and eventually the topic will be closed and you will have failed to prove a damn thing. Instead I will simply say "Prove it". Do it right now. Don't quote a theory. PROVE IT. You can't. Nobody can. Believe as you wish and sleep will at night, because your opinion of global warming doesn't affect me in any way. Matter of fact, I'd be willing to be my carbon footprint is less than yours. But who cares? The plant is going to be here when we die. It will be here for my kids and for their kids. The only problem I see is that my kids and their kids are going to have to pay for the liberal policies you support that are not sustainable. Let's just agree not to do that okay?

Back to topic - next time my ex bro-in-law or my father-in-law or my grandpa is in town, if you're interested, I'd be more than happy to set up a little meeting. Each works or worked in the oil industry as I've stated. Do you want to hear it from the horses mouth, or would you prefer to stay in the matrix? You can read this too if you'd like. http://money.howstuffworks.com/oil-s...gas-price1.htm You want the red pill or the blue one? Up to you little lady.

First, the point I am making is entirely unrelated to the increase in the price of gasoline over the last month. It is ludicrous to try to understand this problem from that microscopic perspective. But, if it helps, I agree with you about the repercussions of Wall Street speculation with respect to it being a partial influence on the price of oil, and that oil is a world-market commodity.

You are still trying to mislead the people here about world oil supply. That is shameful. The FACT that the world is running out of oil should be obvious, since we are now trying to dig it out of shale and even Canadian tar sands -- both of which are dramatically more expensive to recover and refine than Brent Blend or WTI. This leads me to question whether you are an oil company shill or simply ill-informed.

While you indict my political beliefs and factual analysis -- you didn't even try to debate the information I quoted. And, yes, I quoted the information because I don't try to make up the facts. We pay people, called scientists, to try to find as best they can, what works most of the time. That is what science and scientific research DOES. It is not perfect because we don't live in a world where perfection happens very often.

What you HAVE proved to me is this, you are a card carrying member of the "Facts Are Optional" Party. For you, anecdotal evidence and what your gut tells you is good enough. So, if I were you, I wouldn't go to a doctor or stand on the edge of a tall building ( science doesn't know how gravity actually works either, but your own assumptions might tell you that you can fly ). Perhaps you didn't get the memo, but, without science, we would not have put a man on the moon. Or are you a moon landing denier, too?

I have a question for you: Are you aware that under the Bush Administration American scientists were threatened with being fired ( and some of them were fired and black-balled ) if they published research which showed that global warming is caused by the CO2 producing activities of humans?

Have you seen video of the air pollution in China and Thailand? This is what happens when you have no EPA. The EPA depends on science to determine why air pollution happens and how many Americans will die, each year, depending on how filthy we allow the air to become. It also uses science to help determine how to clean up the air and prevent further air pollution. Do you notice that LA has much better air than it did in the 1970s? There is absolutely no debate here. It really doesn't matter what your gut tells you or what "assumptions" you've made. It didn't happen by magic.

Left un-policed, Big Oil will argue that 150,000 deaths per year, due to heart disease (yes, heart disease is exacerbated by air pollution), lung cancer, COPD, asthma and emphysema is a small price to pay for American jobs. But, the REAL QUESTION IS what do you say SaintFan? Because these are the questions that are incumbent upon us as individual Americans to answer. Is your and your families' health & quality of life more important than Big Oil's profits? Shall we allow Big Oil ONLY to influence energy policy? Or will we decide what our own priorities are, as Americans, and as human beings, who need to breathe clean air?

I don't hate corporations, I simply understand their raison d'etre, which simply is this: to make a profit. They have no other reason to exist. But, human beings care about MUCH MORE than that. We care about our children and their health, and our own health. We care about safety, and beauty, and truth and fairness and justice and peace. So, I merely accept the fact that corporations and human beings often have competing interests. They lobby for what they need and want -- and we lobby for what we need and want.

So, yes, SaintFan, we DESPERATELY need to have the GLOBAL WARMING discussion. There is no point in battling about it. It is happening, right now. Just tune your TV away from FAUX News. There is vitally important information out there -- all you need to do is look at it with an open mind. The sea level is rising. Global temperatures are rising. US weather is causing more damage in inflation-adjusted dollars than at any other time in history -- but you would have to actually read some technical articles to know this. Since you have children, do it for them.

Try living in the UK,$9.99 a gallon.

Oil companies get bazillions in subsidies annually of tax money.

Ever year. EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

That is corporate welfare. That is socialism at its worst, the corporate variety.

Bail outs? Phffft. Subsidies have been going on SINCE 1913 people.

Wake up. The lobbyists are kicking our asse$.

You'd have to be pretty phuckin stupid to think a republican't will ever save you from a democrap, or visa versa. Get real, por favor.

Oil makes the world go round, honey.

Make up all the imaginary white collar capitalist bogeymen you want.

For every one of your straw men, there are 1,000 "good" people who have JOBS because of Oil. Everything you use is made of OIL. Everything you need is transported by OIL.

If you can catch a ride to work on a unicorn, knock yourself out. Maybe you can fill your tank with rainbows.

But if you screw Oil, you screw all of us, and yourself...

.... as your Anointed One is about to learn.

-- now go back to your indoctrination sources and come tell us some more of your amazing "facts."

I am going to exit stage left. I don't have conversations with most people about religion because most people simply believe what they believe and aren't very interested in WHY someone else believes what THEY believe.

I'm different. I enjoy learning about why someone believes a certain thing. Oh I used to argue it with venom, but I got a little older, a little wiser, and learned that it is far more interesting to openly debate such a topic with someone than it is to get into a flat-footed argument with them.

As for the price of oil and further a gallon of gas, there is no point in me arguing with someone who isn't willing to accept facts. There is no point in me arguing with someone who, to bolster their point, quotes Wikipedia and uber-liberal Op Ed nonsense. I cannot have a discussion, and I cannot hope to teach or explain. It is true that some people cannot be helped. This is true of the ultra-conservative as well as the ultra-liberal in the political arena, just so we're clear.

I do want to speak about the attempt to insinuate that I am purposefully misleading people about peak oil. I am doing no such thing. This is a sad tactic that is being used here by someone who is trying to win an argument with old statistics and no experience in the field AS WELL AS no 1st or even 2nd hand insight. The only knowledge you have of that which you preach is from Government sites and other's who's political agenda is easily exposed with little or no effort. If you're comfortable with that then fine by me. I prefer real information as opposed to piling on to some agenda because I like the sound of their catch phrase.

This discussion was (before it became bastardized) about why gas prices are so high. It was asserted by my primary foe in this debate that Peak Oil was all anyone needed to know. It is MY asserting that Peak Oil has precisely nothing to do with why gas prices are all over the place OR why we are about to break pricing records across the country at the pump. NOT ONE SINGLE THING DOES PEAK OIL HAVE TO DO WITH IT. It was later stated by my counter in this discussion that domestic drilling was the answer, but this came after my challenger blasted another poster for calling out Pelosi for her disdain for increased domestic drilling. Clearly you can't figure out whether to scratch your watch or wind your ass, so why waste any more of my time trying to get you educated when you're just here for the fight?

I have stated that there is no shortage of oil. There isn't. I stand by that statement because of a number of things I know, but mostly because (a) API is certain (and they are the pros) there are as of yet undiscovered resources, and in fact every now and then this proves to be true and is easily observed by anyone who's paying attention and (b) I happen to know two people who specifically drill for oil for their living. They went to school for it. They are working in the industry every day. They have access to information none of this hogwash being posted here as evidence of a point has. THOSE people tell me its a farce. It's a scare tactic. It's all by design. I have other friends and relatives who do or have done everything from pipeline work in refineries and the middle east to off shore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, The North Sea, South America, and other places all over the world. I believe these men because they have no dog in the race. I believe them because they have perspective. I believe them because I've frequently listened to them counter the scare tactics the Politicians put forth - aimed at people JUST LIKE YOU. Sadly it works, but it's like the Jedi mind trick. It only works on the weak minded.

Now, Who_Dat_Cat, let me tell you a little something about me personally. I don't watch 'faux' news as you call it. I don't watch CNN. I watch local news on KRON 4 and ONLY because I want to know what the weather is going to do and because I think Justine is HOT and sometimes to learn about the latest violent death that you also don't believe happens here in the Bay Area. That's it. You have mistaken me for a extreme conservative, and I can assure you I am not. I watch PBS with my kids and I listen to NPR every morning. But where I get most of the information that shapes my opinion on things is by talking to people who know more about them than I do. I've had professors who tried to settle me in to their agenda - their view of the world. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm smart enough to see that coming. It's too bad that you and others like you are not. I have been extremely fortunate to have grown up on a military base and to have worked in jobs that have allowed me to get to know and to learn from people all over the world. So when I want to know how the Russians felt about American during the cold war I talk to some Russians. When I want to know what India thinks about America in the middle east I go ask an Indian. If I wanted to know what an uber-liberal thought about something I could just ask you. You, on the other hand, look to politically-laced government propaganda and Liberal Op Ed pieces written by legal professionals who found ultra-left-wing broadcasting entities.

Network TV is another great place for the liberal agenda. No, your agenda is not new to me. If you never spoke another word to me I'm fairly certain I could peg your stance on just about anything, because all I'd have to do is turn on the CBS, NBC, or ABC news casts. On the other hand, you make far too many assumptions to have any hope of responding in kind. You, if I may be so blunt, are indoctrinated - completely and irreversibly I'm afraid. That's fine. Lot's of people are. It's sad, but you are fed the liberal agenda and you swallow it whole just as many people are fed the conservative agenda and swallow that whole.

I'll finish now, but before I go I'll just add this one thing: There is exactly ZERO factual evidence that proves Global Warming. In fact many of the predictions made by these scientists you speak of have failed to materialize and in some cases are even reversed. I'm not saying we shouldn't protect the environment. That's a worthy effort to be sure. I teach my kids to recycle. I teach my kids about conservation. I teach my kids about respecting forests and the wildlife that lives there. Matter of fact, there are a pair of endangered owls living on a construction site that MY KIDS reported to the Brentwood Press a few weeks ago. Look it up if you don't believe me.

No. You don't know a damn thing about me lady except what I have offered to you directly. And you don't know a damn thing about oil either. But that's okay. As an old Italian lady once told me, "It takes all kinds to make a world." Wise words indeed.

So, you only believe industry sources ...... OK, here is OPEC's World Oil Outlook for 2011.

In OPEC's World Oil Outlook for 2011, page 72, Figure 1.25 shows the drop off of OPEC crude oil supply starting in the 70s and going to 2035. They say it very clearly: "OPEC crude share in total world oil supply: 1973 51%, 2010 34%, 2035 36%", while, this report shows that demand will grow in the future, OPEC producing nations will only supply 36% of world oil supply in 2035. The chart also shows that "other sources of oil" will replace OPEC crude.

If OPEC had the oil to sell, tell me SaintFan, why would OPEC be projecting that "other sources of oil" will fill the gap in oil supply in 2035? Don't you think that OPEC would want to sell 51% of oil, instead of 36%, to meet demand, if they could? I think they would.

As I mentioned above, we are now beginning to extract oil from other, dramatically more expensive, fossil fuel sources, such as shale and oil sands. OPEC's report discusses it in detail, and uses these "other sources" to replace the loss from OPEC crude sources. They state, on page 69, in pertinent part: "...increases in conventional supply from the Caspian and Brazil, as well as steady increases in biofuels, oil sands and shale oil will more than compensate for expected decreases in mature regions." These other sources and their development will increase prices for gas due to the higher cost of development of these unconventional sources when compared to cost of production in "mature regions". These mature regions are where the oil reservoirs are being emptied. So, SaintFan, you appear to be the one listening to unreliable sources. But, I know you have a problem with scientific sources which you define as "leftist propaganda". But, tell me SaintFan, how is OPEC's report "left-wing propaganda"?

BTW, OPEC's report is based on science and compilation of facts and uses statistical modeling to come up with these numbers and projections. They are not quotes from your ex-brother in law, or other "people you know" who work in the oil industry.

And, interestingly, this report from OPEC, mentions global warming and climate change and takes it into consideration in their projections.

And, Danno, it makes no sense to feel sad about the energy predicament we are in .... but you can do something about it. First, get educated about this issue and then work hard to reduce your fossil fuel consumption, and reduce your carbon footprint. Then you can support subsidies for energy development of non-carbon-based energy sources.

....and fill your tank with rainbows...

"get educated".... lol.
get real.

Just announce a 3p per litre increase in the uk.

I apologize, but I really think you're stupid. You've created this argument, so far from the original topic, I guess, because you wanted a fight? NOTHING TO DO WITH GAS PRICES...ZERO...but I'll address your latest nonsensical post.

First: You won't believe anything "Big Oil" tells you about, well, "Big Oil", but you WILL be more than happy to quote left wing propaganda. And yes, you have - it's documented, so let's please not bait and switch. You were busted. Accept it and move on. If you want to prove your point then prove it, but don't deflect because your sources suck. It makes you look foolish.

Now, so you won't buy in to what Exxon or Conoco or Shell tells you, but you will believe OPEC? You won't hear it when I tell you what people I know who work in the business tell me, but you'll believe so much so some uber-liberal lawyer who's history is so much about making a buck off people like you that he is transparent - someone without a lick of sense on the topic of discussion - you buy his crap and use it as evidence? You'd actually read and believe that rhetoric over some people who actually work in the industry - not the execs but ground-level people with decades of experience. You won't believe them? You are severely broken my dear. Pills might help...or in your case maybe we're talking about too many pills already. Hell I don't know. You're all over the map...

Anyway, I'm curious. Evidence of what, exactly? What is it, specifically, that you're trying to prove with all this crap, because I'm not so sure anymore?

Initially we were talking about why Gas is so high. I've yet to see you say anything intelligent about that. The ONLY thing I've seen from you on the subject is that domestic drilling wouldn't help...oh, and then you said it would, but you don't have any proof...of either, really.

Now, you've used this issue of high gas prices to broadcast your "Peak Oil/Global Warming" agenda, a typical liberal-extremist tactic, and, unfortunately, I and other's have played along. The truth is I enjoy it, so let's continue.

Let's look at what OPEC says. OPEC says we don't have as much oil as we used to have and thus our percentage of the worlds oil will diminish.

Now, you post this as some sort of evidence and call me out as if to say, "THERE Saintfan. SEE. I TOLD YOU SO". But you didn't tell me a damn thing. In fact you supported what I've been saying from the very beginning you're just too stupid to know it. Of COURSE their mature wells are going to run out. What a brilliant person you are for pointing that out.
Hmmm, there's this great big hole in the ground, and its got all the gooey stuff in it, and I'm going start removing all the gooey stuff with the expectation that I will never be able to empty the hole.
You are SOME rocket scientist, which is a good thing, because you still don't know a damn thing about oil. In spite of all I've told you and all you've read, you are still too dumb to see past your own agenda.

You see, there are plenty as of yet undiscovered, traditional oil resources around the globe. This says nothing about natural gas and other resources which are really off topic, but since you can't seem to find or stay on a single topic (sigh) I'll play along...again...

In fact, if you've read the WHOLE OPEC Report as opposed to zooming straight to the part that interested you - the part that you thought might help you save some face - you would have read this little nugget right here:

I'm posting this particular part because...uh...

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO BEAT INTO YOUR SILLY LITTLE BRAIN. Let's try it again...only this time I'll ONLY quote a SINGLE sentence from your source of 'evidence' so as to keep it...well...I mean I just can't dumb this down any more:

There will be no shortage of oil for the foreseeable future.

So, according to your 'trusted' source, which I'd like to point out to the group is freaking OPEC, that as far as they can see (this is the foreseeable future) there will be no shortage. No shortage means, I think we can all agree, that supply will pace demand.

That's what I've been saying is it not? Have I not been clear and directly to that point? That's what the people I've told you about have been saying. It would seem my sources - those with decades of experience - kinda more or less have a clue huh? How old are you? If you're under 30 then maybe you just haven't had your awakening. If you're over 40 then kill yourself now because you don't have an excuse to be this effing stupid on this or any other topic that truly interests you. Please do NOT reproduce.

Now, since the initial debate - before you turned it into a liberal preach about "peak oil" - was about the price of gas, I'm going to quote your source of information again as it pertains to the initial topic:

Were you trying to tell me something about "ECON 101"? Didn't I tell you the price for a gallon of gas has as much to do with speculation (and probably more) than anything else, all factors considered as much as is possible? Isn't that pretty much what I said? Didn't you tell me it was all about supply and demand and that speculation had little or nothing to do with it? We need a qualifier I think. Tell me, how much is 2+2? If you're answer isn't 4 then I'm just not sure what to tell you. Maybe the answer is 5 on your planet, but here on Earth, the answer is 4. FOUR.

Why, I do believe that's pretty much what I said. Let's all move along...slowly, so Who_Dat_Cat can keep up...

Now, let me address this part of your rant:
In fact what OPEC says right out of the gate is this:
In other words, we have all this data here, and we've done our best, but the truth is we really don't know. If you real the WHOLE report, you'll see frequently that assumptions are made and in fact are acknowledged. What you want to represent as some end all document (1) really isn't anything of the sort and (2) actually supports just about everything I've been saying, as much as it can be proved, because there IS plenty of assumption going on. The different between you and me is I'm listening to people who have a clue and you're listening to people with an agenda - or misrepresenting data at every turn.

Regardless, I think we've learned something here today. I think we've learned that even OPEC says supply of oil will pace demand. I think we've leaned that even OPEC says that speculation is largely responsible for prices. WDC, what I hope you've learned is that I'm not trying to 'spin' anything. I hope you can recognize that I'm simply not going to believe the world is flat, or that the sky is falling, or that we're all going to die just because some politician or political organization or even API or OPEC say so. I want proof. I want substantial evidence, and when that's not possible I want the opinions of qualified people, and I want to hear those qualified people agree, because when they don't agree, I smell an agenda. You understand?

Now please, if you want to discuss whether or not we're all going to die because we're running out of oil then start that thread. If you want to discuss global warming (not theoretical carbon omissions from an OPEC report, because most rational people are going to destroy any argument you make about global warming if that's the best you can do) then start that thread.

THIS thread was supposed to be about why gas prices are so high. I'm fairly certain you aren't qualified to opine on the subject - no, at this point I'm 100% certain you are not qualified, but knock yourself out if you'd like, but take your liberal agenda on Peak Oil to its own thread were you can get schooled yet again if you'd like.

Oh, and have a nice day.

There's way more than your fair share of CO2 emanating from this discussion. I can feel the Global Warming just from this. It's your fault it's 85 degrees in Chicago today. Can you contribute $500 to BnG to offset your carbon footprint?

In all seriousness .... :rolleyes: Haven't you all had enough yet?

:violin: :dance:

I never tire of the truth. :mrgreen:

I don't believe that everything have to be transported by oil, less of all humans. Electric cars are getting rally good. I'd love to have a Chevy Volt or a hybrid like Toyota prius. Sure there will be oil for maybe 30-40 more years but if we all coninue driving like we do today and add that most everybody in India and China will gonna want a car there just will not be enough oil. IMHO the oil that is left is more needed for makine plastics etc than for powering motorcars.

You make a good point, but electric vehicles are not yet a viable option for the everyday consumer. I worked on the Volt platform and the rest of GM's alternative fuel vehicles and they're not as economical/reliable as GM would have you believe.

There has been a lot of pressure from the current Administration on the car companies to rush this technology to market, the result being an inferior, overpriced, under-engineered product. I'd rather have a golf cart then a Volt, seriously, or at least a Nissan Leaf.

From my point of view, the entire fuel infrastructure of a region/country is going to have to be uprgraded to allow for efficient, cost effective refueling of alternative fuel vehicles, regardless of what alternative fuel they may use (hydrogen, natural gas, electric), before this method of transportation is ever going to catch on.

Myself, personally ... I don't mind taking a bus or using mass-transit and love cities like WashDC, Tokyo, Rome, et... where you can get around basically without having to own a vehicle, but most people want their cars and until it's affordable and convenient, alternative fuel vehicles are for those with the money wanting to make a statement.

Raising fuel prices as a means to encourage people to use alternative energy sources, which I feel is what they're basically doing now, when they are not economically available to the masses does the exact opposite. As fuel prices rise, I see people just spending a larger portion of their budgets on fuel and cutting back on more and more on other necessities.

It's getting rough out here.

Coming to a town near you.

Face it... your dollar won't by anything anymore. Wait till they try to pay off the 15 trillion debt with inflated dollars. The system will crash worse than 2008. Once the world wakes up and believe me they will, and stop taking the dollar, the federal reserve is going to add zeros to certain peoples bank accounts (called printing money only easier) and own the rest of the country.

I agree that alternative sources should be developed and implemented, but have you seen what they do to the environment mining for the materials to make batteries for electric cars? Those sites look like moonscapes, and the batteries themselves only last (we think) about three years. Those discarded batteries become hazardous waste. It still takes oil to build them. Perhaps there is a net gain in CO2 emissions from people driving their gas-powered cars, but I'm not sure it would be substantial enough all things considered.

And those battery manufactures will be getting all kinds of subsidies from the government just like oil companies. They already are.

Lithium is the way this will go, and mining for lithium - or anything else for that matter - is brutal on the environment...brutal...period...not up for debate.

Nearly half the world's supply that we are aware of is in South America. The new "middle east"? Who knows? As is the case with any other natural resource, the supply of lithium is not endless. I guess my point is that electric cars sooth the liberal agenda as it relates to those big 'ol bad 'ol mean 'ol oil companies, but they aren't the end all be all either. Many if not all of the problems with the oil industry will migrate to lithium or whatever else is derived because the root cause for those issues will not have been changed. There ARE ramifications, and they are not petty.

I ride a motorcycle and have considered the 'electric' options, but they're too heavy, don't go fast enough, and don't last long enough on a charge...

It's not as easy as some want to believe.

And China is buying all all resources of Lithium it can !!!