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Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

this is a discussion within the NFL Community Forum; Originally Posted by saintfan I was on such a jury. This guy beat the holy hell out of this other guy, but we did not award damages because they couldn't PROVE it...not beyond a reasonable doubt. Out system protect the ...

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Old 04-13-2010, 03:51 PM   #61
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by saintfan View Post
I was on such a jury. This guy beat the holy hell out of this other guy, but we did not award damages because they couldn't PROVE it...not beyond a reasonable doubt. Out system protect the innocent, and yes, it does allow guilty people to skate sometimes, but should anyone here ever be falsely accused (see falconhater) they'll be damned happy they're in an American court and not a Turkish one.
... don't believe the hype.

... and speaking of Turkish courts, personally, I've never been to one , and while it may be true that if you are accused of something you'd be damned happy you'd be tried in a US court, when someone does you wrong, and you are accusing someone who did something to you but somehow he gets off the hook on a technicality, then the Turkish court don't sound so bad
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:09 PM   #62
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper View Post
... don't believe the hype.

... and speaking of Turkish courts, personally, I've never been to one , and while it may be true that if you are accused of something you'd be damned happy you'd be tried in a US court, when someone does you wrong, and you are accusing someone who did something to you but somehow he gets off the hook on a technicality, then the Turkish court don't sound so bad
Unless you consider whether you'd have had and grounds to begin with in said Turkish court.

There is no perfect system, but none comes closer than ours.

Last edited by saintfan; 04-13-2010 at 04:30 PM..
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:11 PM   #63
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by saintfan View Post
If that were the case - and nobody here can say intelligently one way or the other - then what does that say about the 'little lady' who accepted (so graciously) the check - you know, the one that filed the initial charges? Hmmmm....
hmmmmmmmmm. very true just like all the big wigs got where they are
lie cheat and steal, ala madoff, enron exec's k. lay and all the multi gonzillionaires. if anyone out of these thousands of people are cheat free
please mail my jack asap
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:17 PM   #64
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper View Post
er.. no. Being found not guilty does not mean the prosecutor was wrong, nor does it mean we "know" you are innocent. "Found not guiity as charged" is NOT just language. There is a whole bunch of legal reasons behind that specific language, but I don't think this is the forum to discuss this.
lol.....i know you read my whole post b/c you are one of the people that complains about me not reading your whole posts

i said it means either the prosecutor was wrong OR they didnt provide enough evidence

i also said later in the post that a not guilty verdict means there is no reason to believe you are not innocent......obviously not proof but the evidence doesnt show enough to prove you are guilty

Originally Posted by SAINT_MICHAEL View Post
Not guilty does not mean we know you are innocent. Not guilty means the prosecution has not proven guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

There have been trials where jury members have stated after the case that they believe a defendant committed the crime they were accused of, but the prosecution did not do a good enough job of overcoming the definition of reasonable doubt. Therefore they had to find not guilty (Tobias is right...they do not say you are innocent).

There have also been cases where a defendant was found guilty, but the verdict was overturned on appeal because of mishandling or misrepresentation of evidence during the case. This can happen on a judge’s ruling and have nothing to do with a jury hearing the facts of a case. In neither one of these instances is the defendant innocent. But because of legal definitions they cannot be found guilty.

This also goes into why we have civil and criminal courts in our system. Civil courts do not have the same stringent requirements as criminal courts do. This is why a certain white bronco driving ex-NFL player was found not guilty in a legal trial, but in a civil trial was forced to pay millions in compensatory and punitive damages to the suvivors of two murder victims.
few examples doesnt eliminate the basis for the rulings.....a not guilty ruling means you are not guilty of the crime.....yes there are a few examples as is the case with ANYTHING that are different.....but its a good rule to follow that if you are not guilty you probably did not do the crime you are being charged with

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Old 04-13-2010, 04:24 PM   #65
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

I was framed
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:27 PM   #66
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by strato View Post
I was framed
YouTube- Chris Knight - Framed
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:28 PM   #67
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by st thomas View Post
hmmmmmmmmm. very true just like all the big wigs got where they are
lie cheat and steal, ala madoff, enron exec's k. lay and all the multi gonzillionaires. if anyone out of these thousands of people are cheat free
please mail my jack asap
Not sure what that has to do with anything I said...but umm...ok...
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:44 PM   #68
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by saintfan View Post
I was on such a jury. This guy beat the holy hell out of this other guy, but we did not award damages because they couldn't PROVE it...not beyond a reasonable doubt. Out system protect the innocent, and yes, it does allow guilty people to skate sometimes, but should anyone here ever be falsely accused (see falconhater) they'll be damned happy they're in an American court and not a Turkish one.
the system works.....it has worked for years and thats why whenever there is a change, people make a big deal about it

now criminals who are serving life sentences can get out early.....the death penalty is being harrassed.....and even laws are being bent to persuade a judge/jury that a person is guilty until proven innocent

the fact is that there are very few instances where the guilty man walks free and the overwhelming majority of cases are correct because our judicial system is set up so perfectly

as this applies to this case......it doesnt matter what ben did or if he did anything because there wasnt any proof....so the blame falls back on the women who alleged the crime

even if ben made unwanted advances....he is innocent of the crime of rape

"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:59 PM   #69
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by CantonLegend View Post
the system works.....it has worked for years and thats why whenever there is a change, people make a big deal about it

now criminals who are serving life sentences can get out early.....the death penalty is being harrassed.....and even laws are being bent to persuade a judge/jury that a person is guilty until proven innocent

the fact is that there are very few instances where the guilty man walks free and the overwhelming majority of cases are correct because our judicial system is set up so perfectly

as this applies to this case......it doesnt matter what ben did or if he did anything because there wasnt any proof....so the blame falls back on the women who alleged the crime

even if ben made unwanted advances....he is innocent of the crime of rape
Now Imma hafta rep you...damn...LOL
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Old 04-13-2010, 06:44 PM   #70
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by CantonLegend View Post
now criminals who are serving life sentences can get out early.....the death penalty is being harrassed.....and even laws are being bent to persuade a judge/jury that a person is guilty until proven innocent
What are you trying to say with this statement? It seems to contradict itself. The first two points indicate laws are getting less stringent by eliminating the DP and reducing sentences. Yet the third statement would mean they are getting tougher by "persuading" juries to prosecute innocent people. What is your point and what does it have to do with this?

Originally Posted by CantonLegend View Post
the fact is that there are very few instances where the guilty man walks free and the overwhelming majority of cases are correct because our judicial system is set up so perfectly
First of all you have no idea the factuality of this statement. Go to your local jail and ask how many inmates in there are innocent. I bet it's a pretty high number. If 5 percent of them are telling the truth, then it can add up to a lot of people. I'm not saying any system is better than ours, but to say definitely that someone did or did not commit a crime even based on the outcome of a jury trial (or even worse a judge trial) is blind. Our own system realized this when they put in the appeal process. It allows for the chance to review a verdict because so very often it is wrong.

Second of all we aren't talking about a situation where a person was found Not Guilty. No trial was had due to a lack of evidence. So it is his word against hers. Not enough for a prosecuting DA to waste his/her resources on. This is very similar to the thousands of robberies, muggings, car thefts, and yes rapes that happen every day in this county and go unsolved or unreported. Unsolved crimes happen all the time in our perfectly set up judicial system. I guess you are fortunate enough to never have been a victim of a crime and experienced this first hand. But I would bet there are far more crimes committed in this country that go unpunished than cases where the legal system gets it right from arrest to prosecution to sentencing.

Originally Posted by CantonLegend View Post
as this applies to this case......it doesnt matter what ben did or if he did anything because there wasnt any proof....so the blame falls back on the women who alleged the crime
Blame falls back on the woman? What blame?

Originally Posted by CantonLegend View Post
even if ben made unwanted advances....he is innocent of the crime of rape
Of course he is, because the legal system always gets it right and the bad guys always get what's coming to them

I'm not saying that he did assault the girl because I wasn't there. But I'm guessing you weren't either. So you saying he positively did not assault her because the DA decided that there wasn't enough to charge him on is a total guess on your part even if you don't want to admit it. Tell me this, if nothing happened as you claim, then why didn't the police file charges against her for filing a false police report?
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