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Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

this is a discussion within the NFL Community Forum; Originally Posted by SAINT_MICHAEL What are you trying to say with this statement? It seems to contradict itself. The first two points indicate laws are getting less stringent by eliminating the DP and reducing sentences. Yet the third statement would ...

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Old 04-13-2010, 07:29 PM   #71
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by SAINT_MICHAEL View Post
What are you trying to say with this statement? It seems to contradict itself. The first two points indicate laws are getting less stringent by eliminating the DP and reducing sentences. Yet the third statement would mean they are getting tougher by "persuading" juries to prosecute innocent people. What is your point and what does it have to do with this?



First of all you have no idea the factuality of this statement. Go to your local jail and ask how many inmates in there are innocent. I bet it's a pretty high number. If 5 percent of them are telling the truth, then it can add up to a lot of people. I'm not saying any system is better than ours, but to say definitely that someone did or did not commit a crime even based on the outcome of a jury trial (or even worse a judge trial) is blind. Our own system realized this when they put in the appeal process. It allows for the chance to review a verdict because so very often it is wrong.

Second of all we aren't talking about a situation where a person was found Not Guilty. No trial was had due to a lack of evidence. So it is his word against hers. Not enough for a prosecuting DA to waste his/her resources on. This is very similar to the thousands of robberies, muggings, car thefts, and yes rapes that happen every day in this county and go unsolved or unreported. Unsolved crimes happen all the time in our perfectly set up judicial system. I guess you are fortunate enough to never have been a victim of a crime and experienced this first hand. But I would bet there are far more crimes committed in this country that go unpunished than cases where the legal system gets it right from arrest to prosecution to sentencing.



Blame falls back on the woman? What blame?



Of course he is, because the legal system always gets it right and the bad guys always get what's coming to them

I'm not saying that he did assault the girl because I wasn't there. But I'm guessing you weren't either. So you saying he positively did not assault her because the DA decided that there wasn't enough to charge him on is a total guess on your part even if you don't want to admit it. Tell me this, if nothing happened as you claim, then why didn't the police file charges against her for filing a false police report?
Well then allow me to ask you this: Of the total number of people that have been convicted of a crime and are in jail and otherwise alive, how many of them are innocent? You cannot make the "Very often it is wrong" claim any more than Canton can make the very often it is right claim.

In fact, Canton, based on the number of overturned convictions related to those that aren't, is in a much better place to make his assertion than you are yours.

The TRUTH (and any number you find will back this up) is that the majority of people in jail are rightfully there. Our system works, which is not to say it doesn't make mistakes, and Ben's situation if proof of the former, not the latter.

Ben is innocent because there is insufficient evidence to show otherwise. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY BY THE GRACE OF GOD! The prosecutor is aware of this. Why aren't you?

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Old 04-13-2010, 08:43 PM   #72
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by saintfan View Post
Well then allow me to ask you this: Of the total number of people that have been convicted of a crime and are in jail and otherwise alive, how many of them are innocent? You cannot make the "Very often it is wrong" claim any more than Canton can make the very often it is right claim.

In fact, Canton, based on the number of overturned convictions related to those that aren't, is in a much better place to make his assertion than you are yours.
Really? Well, I am no lawyer, but a quick google lookup found this:

Law.com Charts: State by State Comparison

and this:

68 Percent Error Rate Found in Death Case Study

Now I did not write these so there may be some falsehood to them, but I feel confident in saying that a court decision being overturned on appeal is hardly a rare occurrence. Again, this is why they have an appeal process in the first place; they new they would be needed because screw-ups would happen. If you add into this the number of people let free because of DNA evidence after the fact (There have been 252 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States since 1989), I feel “so often wrong" is a fair assessment. When we are talking about the seriousness of being on trial, a 1 % rate of error or overturn on appeal should be considered too high IMO. I’m guessing you would too if you were on trial yourself or seeking the conviction of the person that raped your mother/sister/daughter.


Originally Posted by saintfan View Post
The TRUTH (and any number you find will back this up) is that the majority of people in jail are rightfully there. Our system works, which is not to say it doesn't make mistakes, and Ben's situation if proof of the former, not the latter.
I'd agree that the majority of the people in jail are guilty of a crime. But my point was more about the people that commit crimes and do not go to jail either because 1) they were not caught or 2) they were caught by could not be proven guilty. Disagree if you want, but I'm not naive enough to believe that just because a person isn't brought to trial for a crime, it means they 100% for sure did not commit the crime. No person was found guilty or ever tried for the murder of JonBenét Patricia Ramsey. That sure doesn't mean no crime was committed. Ben’s situation proves nothing. All we can do is speculate.

Originally Posted by saintfan View Post
Ben is innocent because there is insufficient evidence to show otherwise. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY BY THE GRACE OF GOD! The prosecutor is aware of this. Why aren't you?
Because I keep my eyes open I guess. And so does the prosecutor. Ben was not charged for the crime of sexual assault in the eyes of the law. That is not the same as innocent. If it was, then the police would not have made that snide comment about prosecuting morals. They would have said, “We are convinced that Mr. Roethlisberger was guilty of no wrongdoing and we are happy to completely clear him of all charges. We are contemplating legal action against the woman who has falsely accused him”. But no, that didn’t happen. Who knows how he will be tried by the EYES OF GOD?

I'll go back to my previous example because it fits, people are aware of it, and it is easy. OJ was found not guilty of the murders. Yet strangely enough the LAPD (and the prosecutor whom you mention above) did not say "Gee, that guy was found not guilty. We must have had the wrong guy after all. We'd better go out and catch the real killer." Why not, because they felt they had the right guy to begin with. Because he wasn't found guilty, should they have re-opened the investigation following other leads? Of course not. It would have been a waste of time and money. Our perfect system had another glitch.

So to sum up you are obviously going to believe what you want to. But I believe there are enough mistakes in our legal system, both against the innocent and for the guilty, that it is foolhardy to blindly believe someone's guilt because one lawyer was more persuasive in court than another or someone's innocence because a DA realizes it is a waste of taxpayers money to pursue a case he cannot win against the kind of high dollar legal team that Roth. would buy.
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:12 PM   #73
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

You dont want to get the death penalty here in Texas....cause your ass is a goner...it depends where your at to..I bet Big Benji would have been jailbait here ...

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Old 04-13-2010, 11:40 PM   #74
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by SAINT_MICHAEL View Post
What are you trying to say with this statement? It seems to contradict itself. The first two points indicate laws are getting less stringent by eliminating the DP and reducing sentences. Yet the third statement would mean they are getting tougher by "persuading" juries to prosecute innocent people. What is your point and what does it have to do with this?
i was saying that the system works.....those were a few changes that are happening slowly across the country and they are big deals because the system works well....it has worked for so long that these changes are BIG stories in the news

First of all you have no idea the factuality of this statement. Go to your local jail and ask how many inmates in there are innocent. I bet it's a pretty high number. If 5 percent of them are telling the truth, then it can add up to a lot of people.
you have no idea how many people i know that work in a jail. my cousin is in summit county SWAT and works at the prison during the week. my next door neighbor works in a jail and my brother is going to school to be a cop and has interned(or whatever they call it) at a jail for a significant amount of time

there are very few places in the world more dangerous than a jail or prison because the people there are....wait for it......CRIMINALS

Second of all we aren't talking about a situation where a person was found Not Guilty. No trial was had due to a lack of evidence. So it is his word against hers. Not enough for a prosecuting DA to waste his/her resources on. This is very similar to the thousands of robberies, muggings, car thefts, and yes rapes that happen every day in this county and go unsolved or unreported.
this statement proves without a doubt that you are bias in this debate......you believe ben did the crime as you compared it to other generic crimes where a party is obviously guilty but doesnt get caught or charged

Unsolved crimes happen all the time in our perfectly set up judicial system.
im going to let you in on a little secret because i like you......the judicial system is not the one that goes out and collects criminals....the judicial system is just the one that convicts criminals

the executive branch is the one that enforces the laws and is responsible for keeping the streets clean


I guess you are fortunate enough to never have been a victim of a crime and experienced this first hand. But I would bet there are far more crimes committed in this country that go unpunished than cases where the legal system gets it right from arrest to prosecution to sentencing.
no but i have close family members that have been the victims of crimes and i dont wish to share those because they are personal but believe me, i know exactly what it means to get the short straw

Of course he is, because the legal system always gets it right and the bad guys always get what's coming to them
i said already that there are a few mistakes as is the case with anything but the system works very well and has worked well for nearly 3 centuries

I'm not saying that he did assault the girl because I wasn't there. But I'm guessing you weren't either. So you saying he positively did not assault her because the DA decided that there wasn't enough to charge him on is a total guess on your part even if you don't want to admit it. Tell me this, if nothing happened as you claim, then why didn't the police file charges against her for filing a false police report?
i said, i believe ben did something......but i dont believe it was rape......he may have made unwanted advances and he may have forced himself on her but obviously there wasnt enough evidence....not blood....not DNA....not video.....not anything that says ben did anything significantly wrong to deserve the guilty sentence of rape

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Old 04-14-2010, 12:12 AM   #75
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by CantonLegend View Post
lol.....i know you read my whole post b/c you are one of the people that complains about me not reading your whole posts

i said it means either the prosecutor was wrong OR they didnt provide enough evidence

i also said later in the post that a not guilty verdict means there is no reason to believe you are not innocent......obviously not proof but the evidence doesnt show enough to prove you are guilty



few examples doesnt eliminate the basis for the rulings.....a not guilty ruling means you are not guilty of the crime.....yes there are a few examples as is the case with ANYTHING that are different.....but its a good rule to follow that if you are not guilty you probably did not do the crime you are being charged with

I did read your entire post...

Law is all about the language. There's a big difference between being innocent, not enough evidence to charge, not guilty, and not guilty as charged.

.. that's all I am saying
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:22 AM   #76
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by saintfan View Post

Ben is innocent because there is insufficient evidence to show otherwise. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY BY THE GRACE OF GOD! The prosecutor is aware of this. Why aren't you?
It doesn't work that way. Insufficient evidence to bring to trial does NOT equate to innocence by no one's grace. Ask John Gotti. Well, you can't, he's dead... but the point is, how many times was Gotti prosecuted and found not guilty? How many times do you think federal prosecutors wanted to bring Gotti to trial but they didn't have enough evidence to do so? Did that mean Gotti was "innocent"? Don't think so.

As for Big Ben, well, is he really free of all blame for this last incident? Well, I don't know. Surely this being his 3rd incident of the kind does give me some doubt as to his "innocence"...

There is no perfect system, but none comes closer than ours.
... again, don't believe the hype.

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Old 04-14-2010, 08:52 AM   #77
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

....talk about bad tennis.


Did anyone notice that Ben has quit football and joined the Tony Hawk/Pantera Skate or Die World Tour???



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Old 04-14-2010, 12:36 PM   #78
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper View Post
It doesn't work that way. Insufficient evidence to bring to trial does NOT equate to innocence by no one's grace. Ask John Gotti. Well, you can't, he's dead... but the point is, how many times was Gotti prosecuted and found not guilty? How many times do you think federal prosecutors wanted to bring Gotti to trial but they didn't have enough evidence to do so? Did that mean Gotti was "innocent"? Don't think so.

As for Big Ben, well, is he really free of all blame for this last incident? Well, I don't know. Surely this being his 3rd incident of the kind does give me some doubt as to his "innocence"...

... again, don't believe the hype.
Oh it does work that way. If we're talking semantics ( and it appears as though we are ), neither I nor you KNOW if Ben is "Innocent" of rape or picking his nose, but in the eyes of the law, in this case, he is not guilty because they didn't have enough to charge him and so guess what? Innocent. Same as Capone, or Gotti, or anyone else...UNTIL such time as there is enough evidence to convict and that evidence is presented in such a way that a conviction is achieved. A person is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. Period. That doesn't mean they didn't do the crime.

Is OJ a murderer? Guess that depends on which side of the semantics argument you wanna be on.

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Old 04-14-2010, 12:52 PM   #79
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by SAINT_MICHAEL View Post
Really? Well, I am no lawyer, but a quick google lookup found this:

Law.com Charts: State by State Comparison

and this:

68 Percent Error Rate Found in Death Case Study

Now I did not write these so there may be some falsehood to them, but I feel confident in saying that a court decision being overturned on appeal is hardly a rare occurrence. Again, this is why they have an appeal process in the first place; they new they would be needed because screw-ups would happen. If you add into this the number of people let free because of DNA evidence after the fact (There have been 252 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States since 1989), I feel “so often wrong" is a fair assessment. When we are talking about the seriousness of being on trial, a 1 % rate of error or overturn on appeal should be considered too high IMO. I’m guessing you would too if you were on trial yourself or seeking the conviction of the person that raped your mother/sister/daughter.




I'd agree that the majority of the people in jail are guilty of a crime. But my point was more about the people that commit crimes and do not go to jail either because 1) they were not caught or 2) they were caught by could not be proven guilty. Disagree if you want, but I'm not naive enough to believe that just because a person isn't brought to trial for a crime, it means they 100% for sure did not commit the crime. No person was found guilty or ever tried for the murder of JonBenét Patricia Ramsey. That sure doesn't mean no crime was committed. Ben’s situation proves nothing. All we can do is speculate.



Because I keep my eyes open I guess. And so does the prosecutor. Ben was not charged for the crime of sexual assault in the eyes of the law. That is not the same as innocent. If it was, then the police would not have made that snide comment about prosecuting morals. They would have said, “We are convinced that Mr. Roethlisberger was guilty of no wrongdoing and we are happy to completely clear him of all charges. We are contemplating legal action against the woman who has falsely accused him”. But no, that didn’t happen. Who knows how he will be tried by the EYES OF GOD?

I'll go back to my previous example because it fits, people are aware of it, and it is easy. OJ was found not guilty of the murders. Yet strangely enough the LAPD (and the prosecutor whom you mention above) did not say "Gee, that guy was found not guilty. We must have had the wrong guy after all. We'd better go out and catch the real killer." Why not, because they felt they had the right guy to begin with. Because he wasn't found guilty, should they have re-opened the investigation following other leads? Of course not. It would have been a waste of time and money. Our perfect system had another glitch.

So to sum up you are obviously going to believe what you want to. But I believe there are enough mistakes in our legal system, both against the innocent and for the guilty, that it is foolhardy to blindly believe someone's guilt because one lawyer was more persuasive in court than another or someone's innocence because a DA realizes it is a waste of taxpayers money to pursue a case he cannot win against the kind of high dollar legal team that Roth. would buy.
Have you ever committed a crime? Probably. Are you in jail? Me neither.

You speak of 'blind belief', and understand where you're coming from, and I don't think I'm believing anything blindly. I AM saying there was not enough evidence to take Ben to trial. I cannot make the assumptions you are willing to make: specifically that the DA in this case doesn't want to go up against Ben's amazing legal team. You don't know that. You can't know that.

As for cases being overturned, most aren't. Now, if you want to talk about how many capital punishments cases are overturned, then you should start another thread. In most cases the punishment was reduced because of error, but the convicted individual remains convicted, likely because he was guilty.

You reference 'our perfect system'. So far, you're the only person here that's referenced it as 'perfect'. At least I know I haven't said it was perfect. Also, nobody here has indicated that just because someone isn't tried means they "100%" didn't commit a crime. I can never no. Neither can you. What's your point exactly? That Ben is guilty because we all know he did it?

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Old 04-14-2010, 02:32 PM   #80
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Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

Originally Posted by saintfan View Post
Oh it does work that way. If we're talking semantics ( and it appears as though we are ), neither I nor you KNOW if Ben is "Innocent" of rape or picking his nose, but in the eyes of the law, in this case, he is not guilty because they didn't have enough to charge him and so guess what? Innocent. Same as Capone, or Gotti, or anyone else...UNTIL such time as there is enough evidence to convict and that evidence is presented in such a way that a conviction is achieved. A person is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. Period. That doesn't mean they didn't do the crime.

Is OJ a murderer? Guess that depends on which side of the semantics argument you wanna be on.

I am going to stop, but before I do, I will just tell you this: language is everything in law. Semantics in law are a ***** . Presumption of innocence and not enough evidence to charge do not equate to being "innocent"..

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation".

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