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lumm0x 02-06-2003 01:31 PM

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Hey buddy...don\'t beat around the bush.

BuffordT 02-06-2003 02:48 PM

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Ahh, wee wee. But how can we possibly fight when we have dropped our rifles and are now running from you?

The biggest joke of WWII was when we let DeGalle (I think?) \"lead\" the liberation into Paris. What a bunch of candy a$$ queens. I think we should have divided up their country too, just for being subserviant wussies!!


WhoDat 02-06-2003 04:47 PM

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Ah, the American propoganda machine has worked well on you guys. Two things to consider:

1. Gator is right for comparing the current situation to WWII. One can reasonably argue that the US government has no greater responsibility than it has to its citizens. Is Iraq a threat? As a nation, minimally. But there are a lot of groups that operate there who are. More importantly, the weapons being made there are very very scary. In the wrong hands they could kill a lot of people. For that reason I am inclined to support action against Iraq.

However, any action is no good unless the military is free to do its job. Sometimes that involves doing things that are unpleasant in order to find certain people, weapons, etc. Unfortunately, the American public at large is not willing to allow the army to do the things it needs to do. It wants our men to act humanely in a situation that is inheriently not. For that reason, hands will be tied and the type of victory that keeps this threat from becoming a threat again is not obtainable. That makes me question any action against Iraq.

2. One has to consider the hypocracy in all of this. Here we are, citizens of the greatest military power in the world, with probably the most advanced weapons program in the world, in a nation that has the second largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, and probably a whole lot more biological and chemical weapons than any of us know about, threatening a much smaller weaker country with a war that we would initiate for doing the same thing this country has done for the last 50+ years. Nobody sees this as a bit hypocritical? To parlay it back over to sports, that\'s like the Bucs wanting the league to sanction the Bengals for selecting the best defensive end in the draft.

WhoDat 02-06-2003 06:24 PM

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Sure Gator, I hear what you\'re saying, and I would agree that the American government\'s primary purpose, above all else, is to protect its citizens. I think saying that Irag must fall to secure this country\'s future is a bit over the top, but I generally agree with action against Iraq.

Still, America is Rome. No matter what happens it will fall one day. What\'s important is that other nations don\'t kick us when we\'re down when that day comes. Sure we\'re on top now, so it\'s easy to say that those who oppose American ideals and ways of life will either toe the line or pay the price. But is that the way you want things to go when China is the world\'s super power?

BuffordT 02-06-2003 06:25 PM

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I\'ll have to have to somewhat agree with Whodat on a few different but similar points.

On and on you hear about the Iraqis gassing the Kurds. How?
With U.S. helicpoters and chemicals provided by U.S. companies!
We are lead to believe that this madman is hellbent on destroying American, when he was our ally in the Iran-Iraq war. Granted, that was probably the \"lesser\" of two evils.

I think the current situation boils down to this: Saddam tried to off George Bush, Sr. on a trip to the gulf - now it\'s time for payback.

Iraq is considered by many to be the start of mankind - it may very well be the start of the end. Read your bible folks, it\'s all there.

billyh1026 02-06-2003 07:08 PM

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A short story.....
I have some bricks in my back yard shed.
This guy down the block around the corner has some bricks in his back yard shed.
He keeps calling me a jerk when he see\'s me.
This retoric continues until one day a brick is thrown thru a window in my car at night in my driveway.
I have a pretty damn good idea who did it.
I go to his house. Confront him. He says, with a huge smirk on his face, that he has no idea who did it. But I leave after my wife tells me we should go call the police and they\'ll handle it.
I call the police.
The police take my statement and tell me if it happens again to call them and they\'ll come back out. Do their best to help. And try to catch the person who did it....\"yes, even if it is that guy down the street that you say probably did it....but you have no proof.\"
This happens again with a brick a few nights later.
My neighbors daughter, whom I trust to babysit my children, tells me that she saw the man\'s kids doing it that night.
I go over and kick the snot out of the man and his kids and bulldoze his house.
My lesson....I should\'ve beat the piss out of him the first time his kids broke my window and I went to his house. I\'m just finishing what my wife stopped when I was there earlier to protect my family.

I do this and get away with it because:
a. I\'m big
b. I\'m mean when provoked
c. I have a lot of machinery
d. I\'m still young
e. I\'m very wealthy

Cast of characters:
Neighbor played by Iraq
Police played by U.N.
Wife played by Colin Powell
Bricks Played by Weapons of mass destruction
Bulldozer Played by U.S. weapons in the Middle East

and starring

Me played by The U.S.A.

Annnnnnnnnnnd the best reason to wipe out Saddam...he tried to kill a sitting president in 93\'. Clinton just didn\'t have the gonads to do it so Dubbya Jr. has to clean up over there.

Anyone who tries to snuff out a U.S. Pres has to go.

p.s. we should\'ve hung a left at Berlin years ago....

WhoDat 02-06-2003 07:41 PM

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How exactly did Iraq \"cast the first stone?\" (or brock in your story). They attacked Kuwait. That\'s like attacking some guy in a different neighborhood that you don\'t really know or care about. As a result, you go bulldoze your neighbor\'s house.

nocloning 02-07-2003 07:08 AM

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What has Saddam done lately that make him a threat to U.S. citizens? He can hardly target the US, the missile with the llongest range goes about 1200 km.
Saddam houses terrorists? Nearly all commentators agree that this was the weakest point of Powell\'s speech. They are in an area not controlled by Saddam, it\'s only a few. And I think the US should nuke London first (hey, they arrested the most El Qaida members, did they not?), continue with Hamburg (where Atta and other pilots came from) and finish with Saudi-Arabia (from where El Qaeda is/was mostly funded). It is a well known fact that El Qaeda despises Saddam and even offered to send Mudjahedin to free Kuwait when he invaded it. They see him as a secular. It\'s probably the same the other way around. Saddam also had a little disgreement with religious leaders (that\'s why there is a no-fly zone in the South, not just the kurdish North).
A war is not suitable to destroy a weapons program if there is one. We can basically be sure he\'s not trying to get the A-bomb (maybe if he would he would be left alone, see N. Korea) and the B- and C-programs were pretty much gutted by the weapons inspectors. Even if they try and hide something from the inspectors that means they can\'t go on producing any ****. I don\'t know exactly what the ratio was but the weapons inspectors destroyed more weapons and laboratories than the war, at least 10 times more.
I have a problem with historical references a la WWII. Saddam is no Hitler. He is a threat (I think he isn\'t cause he has too many internal problems) only to the direct neighbours.
Reasons I see for a war and if I buy them:
Protecting US citizens: No.
Oil: No. The preparations for war with a high oil price are hurting the US economy. The US won\'t need Iraqi oil for the next 70 years and it\'s likely Saddam will be dead by then.
Bringing Democracy to the country: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (and so on).
Personal revenge: Yes.
Justifying the insane budget deficit: Maybe.
Trying to get people\'s mind off the state of the economy: Maybe.
Trying to get people\'s mind off the tax cuts for the richest 5% of the country: Maybe.

Reverting to an old bad joke: The ash-tray of your car is full. The American government says: OK, let\'s buy a new car. A solution to the problem. A very expensive one. An insane one. But a solution. The French and Germans say: \"Mhm, why not just empty the ash-tray?\" Rumsfeld says: \"Hey, that\'s what Cuba or Libya would do! But not us. We\'re getting a new car!\" Germans say: \"OK, we know we can\'t stop you, but that doesn\'t mean that we pay for the tires. If you wanna be stupid, go ahead. We came up with a better solution, you don\'t want it - fine.\" (Bush drives the car into a lake)

Sad part is: Tens of thousands of Iraqis will die. I personally don\'t believe that an American life is valued any higher than an Arabs.

saintfan 02-07-2003 09:16 AM

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I almost didn\'t join this thread, but I just can\'t help but say a few things. We can all remember when Saddam invaded Kuwait. How many of us remember the terrible, terrible things his army did to those people? No one else in the world had the balls to step in, so we did. Did we do it for oil? Among other things, sure, you betcha we did. We also did it because we\'re not so blind that we didn\'t see Saddam attempting to take Saudi Arabia next. When this man took over in Iraq many decades ago he had people killed for thinking differently than he did. He is a brutal, evil man who has been thumbing his nose at the UN since Desert Storm. His army has been shooting missles at our planes almost daily since Desert Storm. Britan\'s too.

Is Iraq, as a nation, really a threat to the United States or the rest of the world? Depends on how you look at it. They have no military really, at least none that could challenge the US, but chemical weapons and fear go a long way. The biggest threat Saddam poses to not only the US but to the rest of the world is the environmental and economic hazards he has at his disposal. Had Saddam been successul in Kuwait and moved into Saudi-Arabi he would have held 20% of the globe\'s oil. He could have destroyed many Nation\'s economies and believe me he would have. Don\'t think for one second that wasn\'t his plan.

I saw an interview with a history professor in Iraq where she stated the \"US got what it deserved on September 11th\". This is a statement of blind, uneducated hatred fueled by the lies and misrepresentations of the Leader of the country in which she lives, and she\'s teaching it to children. She will NEVER be provided with the truth because Saddam won\'t allow it. Those people are raised to hate the United States (the Great Satan). Most of those kids screaming in the streets and burning flags have no real concept of what the United States really is or what we really represent.

As for Americans not tolerating certain things from our Military, well, I wish that wasn\'t true but I believe it is. It\'s unfortunate. It was gorilla warfare that won us our freedom but we\'ve forgotten that it seems. Lately it seems we\'re all so interested in being politically correct. For me, Sept 11th was the last freakin straw when it comes to all these radical Muslems terrorizing the globe. For me that was the event that caused me to lose a certain level of humanity when it comes to all the senseless brutalism thats been going on in the middle east long enough.

The Japaneese commander in charge of the Raid on Pearl Harbor new what he had done. He woke a sleeping Giant. The people of my Grandpa\'s generation went for blood, and they got it. They set a chip squarely on their shoulder and went into WWII with a single, united purpose. We are a nation of good, but deep down we know how to be bad when bad is what is required. Truman didn\'t wanna drop the bombs, but he had to and he knew it. Our boys or theirs is what it came down to. It\'s been a while, but we\'ll find that again. Let Saddam use chemicals on our boys, and see how fast the American people forget to be nice. We\'ve been too nice for too long anyway.

Hey Gator, do you remember when we bombed Libya back in the 80\'s? Well, the French wouldn\'t let us use their air space to get there , so we \"accidentally\" bombed their embasy when we got there. Oooooops...gotta love Reagan for that one eh? :D

JOESAM2002 02-07-2003 12:23 PM

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My take on all this is. Who do you trust? Do we trust our leaders? Do we trust the U.N.? Or do we trust Saddam? Some one said Saddam poses no threat to the United States. What scares the hell out of me is, if he has access to weapons of mass destruction. Who will he sell them to? Maybe not Al Qaida, but maybe so. Then there are other terrorist organizations out there who would love to strike a blow on us or our allies. We have to get this guy out of power. You cannot trust him to do anythjing he says except that he will use what he has to stay in power. He proved that when he used nerve gas on his own people. He also used it against Iran in their war with him. This man is a power monger and that\'s all that makes him tick.

When the U.N. passed it\'s resolution after the Gulf war, they said disarm now or suffer the consequinces. It\'s time that he puts up or shuts up. It\'s also time for all nations that love their freedom to take action against this fanatic. If not, well look for him to use these weapons again against us or someone we are allied with.

[Edited on 7/2/2003 by JOESAM2002]


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