saintfan

You recognize the same corporations that contribute to Conservatives also contribute to Liberals? Granted is lesser amounts. This is because, as I'm sure you know, Republicans are far friendlier to business. For me it's less about Democrats than it is about Obama. It can be said that much of the Democratic base is also bought and paid for - not by corporations, but instead by big Government. It's a valid statement and one I'm certain with which you disagree. None the less factual however.

Obama's stumping 4 years ago insinuated he was going to improve the global perception of America. Had this changed in any way that you can indicate? My assessment is no. The middle east is as unstable now as it has ever been in my lifetime, and Obama has certainly not improved, well, anything. Since I believe that whole area has been mishandled by every administration since Ronald Reagan I will not assess Obama any more harshly than the others, but where others has mishandled that region for any number of misunderstandings about how wars are won, Obama has a clear agenda. That's the difference, and that's why his actions there (or lack of them) worry me greatly. You call it "Republican Rhetoric." The fact is he did apologize, and if you understand his history you will understand why he did so.

"Clinton left a surplus." That's the common lament. And it's true. He did. I commend him for it and in many ways I have openly stated my support for Bill, and I have done so retroactively. Nevertheless, while the spends on "two unfunded wars" were a product of the failure of many administrations, Clinton's included. Of course we'd be in the economic mess we're in had they never happened, and this is a fact of your belief that befuddles me. I say this because even the media, unwilling as it may be, has to and certainly has acknowledged the root of the financial crisis. It has many layers. Every administration since Jimmy Carter has had every opportunity to correct it. Each has failed. That you blame Bush and "the two unfunded wars" for it is blatantly short-sighted. Horribly. Inexcusably.

It was always about passing the debt to our children - but you're focused on the back and forth political ramblings of those who are intent on blaming once side or the other. Fact is under Bush spending went crazy - due to the looming economic meltdown, and many Conservatives were against it then. They continue to be against it now. Who gets credit for stimulus success or blame for its failure is a matter of whether you're listening to Fox or Comedy Central. Let me ask you, how many times has the Government bailed out GM? You say it's necessary. I say at some point it becomes irresponsible. The Affordable Health Care program permanently increases spending. Government outlay programs are higher under Obama than they have been since 1946. Bush was bad. Obama is worse. That's just plain math that has no political spin.

This is accurate. This is also nothing new. This is not a tactic exclusive to the Republicans. This is American politics 098. Are you offended that they're trying to do it, or are you offended because they were clear in their intent? You say the Republicans are 'more to blame'. For what, exactly? Increased spending? The division of our Nation? Tax increases? Tax Cuts? American global perception? The state of the middle east? What, precisely are they 'more to blame' for?

I wonder what you have to say about the Democrats who have failed to offer their support for the President's proposals. There are many, you know? You view this as a Republican conspiracy. The truth is there are many on the other side who are unwilling to 'follow along'. The Democrat-Led Senate killed every Republican offer AND Obama's offer. But sure. This is a one-sided conspiracy. No sir it is not. It is the product of a country more divided now than it has ever been, or certainly at least as divided as it has ever been, and yet you find primary fault on the right.

We actually agree here. Unfortunately it is easy to find common ground on this issue so neither you nor I can get much credit for reaching out to the other. It is challenging to determine, at the end of the day, which party spends more than the other. The point is moot because neither can claim immunity.

According to George Washington, the biggest difference between the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution was money. Of course the Government has to have money to operate. Here's the rub: There is nothing, anywhere, even now, that gives the Government the right to tax your wages. Nothing. Not in the Constitution. Not in the 16th Amendment. Nadda. And so while the argument for and against this program or that one rage on, the bigger picture is missed. This is Fundamental. This is key to any discussion you will ever have with me or with anyone else who truly supports the Constitution. It is this very manipulation of the people by big Government that American's must overcome. Now, this is not to say I am against welfare programs. I am not. I am absolutely 100% against how they came to be. It's a lie. It is a manifestation of a progressive willingness to toss aside the Constitution and a conservative willingness to accept it. Obama's Affordable Health Care will generate about 6 billion in revenue. Of course it's against the law. When we talk about revenue, we must also consider how the Government obtains this revenue.

But you feel the Democrats have been less dishonest than the Republicans, less reliant on rhetoric than the Republicans, less likely to rely on soundbites, and less lacking in substance. Truly? Obama has all but mastered these things sir. If there is any piece of evidence I might point to as an indictment of you, this is it. The Democrats have attacked Romney from every conceivable angle - some of them just plain silly. And yes, so too have the Republicans. I agree that the Republicans have only themselves to blame. There is a great opportunity to expose Obama for what he truly is, and Conservatives have dropped the ball. Then again, speaking the truth doesn't play so well in American politics, but that's not on the politicians, that's on us. You and me.
Seriously. Romney and Ryan are hardly the lone perpetrators of the "say anything to get elected" crowd. All one need do is pick an election, any election, at any level, to get a ear full of empty promises. Obama masterfully made the lower-class to believe he was going to right all the wrongs with which society burdened them. He was going to improve foreign relations. He was going to bring the country together. He was going to be "our" president too - the ones who didn't vote for him. Half the poor black people who only voted once in their life are not coming back to the polls in November. Ask them why. American global perception is worse now than every before. Why? The country is more divided than ever. Why? How many 'across the isle' politicians voted for the Affordable Health Care act? How many bridges have been gaped versus those which have been damaged or ultimately even destroyed by this Administration's unwillingness to do more than shove its agenda down the throat of half the country? Why?

Agreed, to a point at least. But which party is more responsible? Lobbyists are necessary. Corrupt ones are not. I submit to you that democrat and republican legislation is 'purchased' equally. I also submit that our system is not broken. It is, in fact, quite brilliant, only that it has been corrupted by those who place their agenda above it. There is ample evidence to support this - to demonstrate how our system has been undermined, both by backers of big business and backers of big government.

This act is an abomination. Its end goal was to turn health care over to the Government - another form of revenue - the goal of those who support big government. It turns a choice into a tax. It steals liberty from us all. It does nothing to solve real issues. It was forced upon half the country by the other half. It is unconstitutional at its core. It was a deal with the devil. There are certain aspects of it that have value, however to obtain these things Obama struck a deal with the insurance companies. We have the issue with this "tax" on Americans - and we also have this issue where this does nothing to correct the root problems with out health care system. Any 'evidence' that it will actually do anything positive is speculative, and most in the health care industry oppose it. Have you talked with any of them about it? Shouldn't we have spend our energies fixed the problem rather than turning a broken system into yet another Government program. I will give them credit tho. There IS a complete section on fraud and abuse, even though nobody abuses programs such as these, they decided to cover themselves in the unlikely event...

And trickle up does? This is Obama's view in a nutshell. He was born to parents with huge chips on their shoulders. His father was a drunk and wife beater who actually married his mother while married to his first wife still in Kenya raising his first two kids. His mother was an activist with a thing for men from third world countries. He grew up with the 'anti-establishment' mantra being drilling into his young mind. When he moved back to the States he was selectively mentored by a drunk who was a civil rights activist and a card carrying member of "Communist Party USA". He speaks proudly of his desire to associate with the fringe. At the end of the day, Obama wants not to make America great again. What he wants to do is dumb it down. He wants to remove America from a global leadership role - the dream from his father if you will. He was brought up to believe that rich nations actively seek to not only take advantage of poor nations but purposefully suppress their people. These are not my words. These are his words. His refusal to deal with foreign relations and address problems head on are telling. His accomplishments are the product of policies that are not his own. His policies are designed to undermine our Capitalist system with a Socialist one.

Obama tells you it's about hope and change. It is. It's about reigning in Capitalism. He's not evil. I've always though he was at least genuine in his beliefs, however the more I learn about how he has come to believe what he believes, and as I watch him spin his agenda to the gullible American's who fell for it completely 4 years ago, it worries me greatly. Unfortunately it appears as though he will be reelected by people who continue to hear what he says but are paying no attention to what he's actually doing. His agenda is clear. So I'm hopeful that more evil Republicans are put in place to thwart him at every turn over the next four years. Frankly I see it as the only hope we have left. There are just too many people worried about free stuff that Obama can never deliver to overcome in an election. Their votes are uneducated, to say the very least. I am sad to say I count you with them Cruize. You aren't paying attention. They are distracting you with shiny objects are you're falling for it. I need you to wake up. America needs you to wake up.

Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel...

Cruize

LOL. Your answers are well thought out and spoken. I have no doubt you strongly believe everything you've said. But, your opinions still come back to an undeniable, impossible premice. Republicans are the gospel. Everyone else is evil. You dance around it but it still comes back to that world view. That is simply lacking common in sense.

Both parties are controled by special interests. Never said they weren't. It is my FIRM belief however that Democrats error on the side of people. Republicans, like Romney's time at Bain, have always supported legislation outsourcing jobs. Profits over people. If that's being more business friendly, the American worker doesn't need enemies. I personally would like to see any corporation manufactoring goods in the US not pay any taxes at all. It was said by some that when Mercedes came to Alabama, they were given too many breaks. All I can say is it worked well for the Alabama workers.

All I can say about our country's perception worldwide under Obama is that he has always left the door open to work with anyone willing. President Bush was the opposite. We're all on this planet until it ends. It's always best to try and get along. To make a honest effort. As far as results go, given where he started with hatred for our nation at an all-time high, I would say it's better. The current problems in the middle east were not caused by the President. His actions, or his inactions. It's more due to the people's themselves rising up against their own oppression.

Our nation would be in a financial downturn, but it would not be to the scope it is without the unfunded wars and the Bush tax cuts. Not even close. That you discount those facts and actually try to tie Clinton to them is simply partisan. Although I think Clinton was a good President, I do blame hin for two important things. Republicans never could get an advantage on him politically and actually worked with him until he couldn't keep it in his pants and then lied about it. That's when the divide went beyond politics and became personal. It's been downhill ever since. Also, Bush never would have been President.

I never said bailing out anyone is a great idea. It was necessary at the time, in the then financial climate with the possibility of millions of people losing their jobs, to do so. In theory, and what should be policy without a doubt, no business should be to big to fail. That has been the failure of many administrations. But, again, at the time, it was the right choice. And a footnote to that, the Obama administration has fought for stricter restrictions on the banks and financial industry. The Republicans fight against it and any restrictions on anybody in any way. In theory, that's fine. It's just not practical in our society today.

I'm upset that one political party, in what is our worst financial situation ever, is just playing politics with no desire to move our nation forward or address the problems. They refuse to compromise or offer any realistic counter proposals. They want the economy to suck. They want unemployment high, which leads to higher participation and drain on entitlements, all to win an election. All Republicans should be offended. It's un-American and is without a doubt the opposite of why they were sent to Washington. That's what I blame them for. As far as Democrats voting against something the Presidet offered, it is what it is. I wish I belived it was about conviction more than just politics. A Democrat living in an oil or gas district is not going to get onboard with green energy. LOL.

The one thing I find unconstitutional is sending our tax dollars around the globe. As far as our founding father's go, they were very bright and well intended. They also thought slavery was okay. As a society, we grow and evolve. While far from perfect, we do have a great nation.

Tell me something Democrats have attacked Romney on that is wrong. other than subtely implying a woman died as the result of Romney's outsourcing jobs on his way to personal wealth. A man did lose his job and insurance due to Bain. His wife died. Atleast there was SOME truth to that. Not acceptable to me and a horrible ad. But, not outright lies like Romney has told on the President in his campaign ads. I haven't seen anything else that was an unfair and certainly not out-of-bounds portrayal in regards to Romney. He made his wealth outsourcing American jobs. Fact. During his time as governor, his state was 46th in job creation. Fact. His budget proposal includes more tax breaks for our nations most wealthy while raising taxes on the working man and cutting programs for the elderly, sick, poor and disabled. Fact. He has shelterd his money in tax havens. Fact. He refuses to show his taxes clearly because what's in them was deemed more damaging than presenting them. Fact.

Romney and Ryan are not the only examples of politicians who will do or say anything to get or stay in office. Never said or implied they were. I thought that went without saying. Again, that goes more to YOUR partisan view. President Obama ran a great campaign. That being said, it didn't matter which Democrat was nominated. After Bush, America was voting for change. I agree that voter turn out will be lower. But, voter apathy will cut both ways. It is truly who you see as the lesser of the two evils. If you believe either will cure all our ills, God Bless You!

Lobbyists are currupt. That's simply what they get paid to do. A system which not only allows but encourages corruption is broken. It's flawed. The answer as how to correct it in a free society is more difficult and another roadblock. Big government IS big business. The biggest of all.

Trickle down economics doesn't work. Facts and statistics prove this out. Our nation has always done better economically under Democrats. The rest of your opinion under "and trickle up does" is truly some the most bat-crap crazy, mischaracterized, and most complete stupidity I've ever heard.

A couple questions for you. How do you believe a Romney administration will govern on the issues? How will he usher in change? I haven't seen anything specific from him or from any of the other partisan Republicans here.

saintfan

Sigh.

You have two things to come to terms with:

1) I'm not a Republican. I have told you this at some point in virtually every discussion you and I have participated in. And this goes to the second thing...

2) The second thing is you have to understand the point I'm trying to make has nothing, zero, zilch, nadda, to do with Romney versus Obama. I have told you this numerous times and yet you finish your diatribe by asking me how I think Romney will Govern - even after I've told you I'm no fan of the man.

The nation, by the way, has done well under both parties. Quite typically, one administration inherits the goods and the bads from the previous administration. In Obama's case he happened to be on the tail end of failed policies enacted by Jimmy Carter. Of course you blame Bush.

You Blame bush because you flat out refuse to open up to anything outside your comfort zone.

You sir are a talking point machine. Narry an original thought or statement in your approach. You don't think for yourself. You listen, absorbe, and regurgitate. You are the average American. Politicians on all leanings love people like you.

Hope for you is lost. Where you are concerned I give up. I think you should do our Country a service however by reading the Constitution. Clearly you have not done so, and if you have ever taken the time to even browse it you have not managed to understand the first word.

You have to back away from the politics you've learned. My guess is you debate in the same manner your father or his father did. You have to stand back and look at things as they are, not as you perceive them through the shades of your chosen leaning.

I don't think you can. I would be pleased if you could prove me wrong.

Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel...