John Brennan sworn in on historic first draft of Constitution

Rickh · 03-17-2013, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Ok.. I am going to need clarification here...

If you do not blindly trust then you require delivery on promises... Can you detail the delivered upon promises from Barry?

I don't recall him standing at the podium and stating "I will @#$k each and every one of you with no hug or reach around if I am elected".

Bush may have done some bad crap.. But he told you he was going to do it that way.

Where I have seen liberals fall victim for the most part is the unintended consequences that their Utopic dreams cause. Some how they do not see that all they are giving is being taken away from somewhere else.

You may not like this list but if the argument is "he hasn't done anything" this list shows he has.

1. Obamacare (Affordable Care Act)
2. Ended the Iraq War
3. Saved US Auto Industry, he went entirely against what the GOP wanted at the time. He gets big credit here.
4. Removed banks from Student Loan program

There is more, but you get the point, he did stuff.

The only utopic dreams I hear about are the "small govt." dreams that take the country back to the times of the 19th century robber barons.

You had mentioned in a previous post that I can certainly have T. Roosevelt. I'll take him gladly for his work busting the Trusts among other things.

I hear both conflicting arguments on the right:
1. Obama is ineffective and does nothing
2. Obama is brutally effective and driving this country into a state controlled socialist economy with absolute dictatorial powers.

Neither of those is true, and they don't even agree with each other.

TheOak · 03-17-2013, 05:25 PM

My question was very clear.
I did not ask what he has done, I asked what promises has he kept. Big difference. You know his promises.

BTW he gets no credit for military successes that he voted against in the first place.

Rickh · 03-17-2013, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

My question was very clear.
I did not ask what he has done, I asked what promises has he kept. Big difference. You know his promises.

BTW he gets no credit for military successes that he voted against in the first place.

This isn't a really good argument for you.
Obama obviously promised a health care bill, ending the Iraq war, and talked at length regarding student debt. I can cite examples if you like bu this was pretty obvious. I'm not sure he said specifically he'd bail out auto makers before the election but I can look that up also.

What military success did Obama vote against in the first place?

TheOak · 03-17-2013, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Rickh

This isn't a really good argument for you.
Obama obviously promised a health care bill, ending the Iraq war, and talked at length regarding student debt. I can cite examples if you like bu this was pretty obvious. I'm not sure he said specifically he'd bail out auto makers before the election but I can look that up also.

What military success did Obama vote against in the first place?

Seriously? You both, think I wouldn't have brought it up if it was not easy to argue..... And you don't know his voting record?

Ill follow with examples of how he voted.

TheOak · 03-17-2013, 06:22 PM

On the war in Iraq you give and he takes credit for:

Votes against funding:
He voted against a successful bill in 2007 which funded the Iraq War without including a timetable for withdrawal (H.R. 2206) [source: The Washington Post].
In 2007, he voted against another successful bill which gave $120 billion in funding for the Iraq War (vote 181), but voted for two different votes on a separate failed bill (HR 1591), which appropriated similar amounts for the Iraq War but included timetables for American troop withdrawals [source: The Washington Post].

As a liberal that is against corporate profits this should make you nauseated:

He voted against an amendment in 2005 (S. Amdt. 31) that would have capped the amount of interest allowed to be charged on credit at 30 percent [source: U.S. Senate].

From a Veteran. F-U Barry
In 2005, he voted in favor of a motion to waive an amendment to provide an additional $500 million per year from 2006 to 2010 to be used for mental health services for veterans [source: U.S. Senate].

Now on to promises/

Tax Reform - FAIL
Sorry..... Your either not trying or taking the liberal angle and letting me do the work.

Here is nearly six pages of failed promises.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...romise-broken/

Jack!

Rickh · 03-18-2013, 06:46 AM

Oh good lord!! He gets credit for getting the country out of Iraq. Not anything that happened while we were in this unnecessary and avoidable war.

In other words, if McCain would have won, we would still be there spending blood and treasure in that country.

Can you really twist reality to the point that Obama has nothing to do with our leaving Iraq? Go ahead give that a shot.

"As a liberal against corporate profits" wow ... are you "strawman"ing me enough? I'm not against corporate profits. Neither are the ever evil liberals.

Monopolies (too big to fail) corporations that make excessive profits through legal manipulation and undue political influence, that's what I'm against. If we are oversimplifying arguments today, I guess you must be for this.

Are you talking about the amendment stuck onto that horrible 2005 bankruptcy bill? You are really picking out an amendment that's part of a bill and blaming "Barry" for it? That's a political trick, not really a discussion.

That 2005 bill by the way, was a Republican reach-around for their bank buddies to stem "Bankruptcy abuse". It makes it harder for people to prove that they should be able to clear their debts in bankruptcy. I'm pretty glad Obama voted against that.

On the veterans bill the whole story is here (same source as you). PolitiFact | In protest, Obama voted against

This vote had to do with the timetable provision of leaving troops in Iraq.

So what we are left with is: taking provisions in bills, which are overall sucky, and saying "Obama voted for that!!" as if it was the point of the bill.

Thats some good "echo chamber" stuff, doesn't work with me.

TheOak · 03-18-2013, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Rickh

Oh good lord!! He gets credit for getting the country out of Iraq. Not anything that happened while we were in this unnecessary and avoidable war.

In other words, if McCain would have won, we would still be there spending blood and treasure in that country.

Can you really twist reality to the point that Obama has nothing to do with our leaving Iraq? Go ahead give that a shot.

"As a liberal against corporate profits" wow ... are you "strawman"ing me enough? I'm not against corporate profits. Neither are the ever evil liberals.

Monopolies (too big to fail) corporations that make excessive profits through legal manipulation and undue political influence, that's what I'm against. If we are oversimplifying arguments today, I guess you must be for this.

Are you talking about the amendment stuck onto that horrible 2005 bankruptcy bill? You are really picking out an amendment that's part of a bill and blaming "Barry" for it? That's a political trick, not really a discussion.

That 2005 bill by the way, was a Republican reach-around for their bank buddies to stem "Bankruptcy abuse". It makes it harder for people to prove that they should be able to clear their debts in bankruptcy. I'm pretty glad Obama voted against that.

On the veterans bill the whole story is here (same source as you). PolitiFact | In protest, Obama voted against

This vote had to do with the timetable provision of leaving troops in Iraq.

So what we are left with is: taking provisions in bills, which are overall sucky, and saying "Obama voted for that!!" as if it was the point of the bill.

Thats some good "echo chamber" stuff, doesn't work with me.

All war is avoidable. Unless you are a Spartan and submit is not an option. Liberals would have surrendered to Xerxes.

All Liberals are - Theron

No twisting reality. The only reason we left Iraq willingly is because his votes to not fund our soldiers were losing-votes. Had they been defunded they would have never left in boots, soldiers would have been buried there.

"Monopolies" and too big to fail are because of Government interference. "if" the Government would just let them fail then we would be in a better place, "if" the government enforced antitrust then they would not become monopolies.

In 2005 he voted to eliminate a credit card interest cap... If you are going to afford him the big picture then you need to get off the back of Republicans doing the same thing now and refusing to vote for all the crap your people hide in bills.

Yes that is the truth... He did just like he did for the sequester.. Played politics because he couldn't get a withdraw date... He held our soldiers well-being hostage for a withdraw date. Read your article again.. "Obama held out".

Final paragraph "Through his proxies, McCain fails to put Obama's vote in the proper context, so we cannot rate this statement True. Still, even though Obama had his reasons, the fact remains that he voted against the bill, which leads us to conclude that McCain's statement is Mostly True. "

Luckily for me the facts "not working" for you do not change them, nor does it "not working for you" effect my view.

You have proven to be pro politician, and not pro leader.... A LEADER does not let his Soldiers go ill equipped for a date that would telegraph key information to the enemy, nor does a LEADER allow a sequester to again hurt the military or school kids, just so he can hold out for a tax issue.

As far as liberals calling the Iraq war illegal-unnecessary-avoidable.. You need to attack the 82 Democrats in the House and the 29 Democrats in the Senate for voting FOR the Iraq Resolution.

I knew it wouldn't take long to flush out the real frame of mind... It has fully surfaced.

Rickh · 03-18-2013, 10:45 AM

Libertarians call that war illegal too. Just ask Ron Paul.

I haven't picked apart bill provisions to claim that so-and-so voted against this and that.

That is a tactic, please link a thread where I've done that and I'll apologize.

A "leader" must be what you call someone who gives into all of the Republican demands and let's himself get run over in spite of the results of our most recent election. Obama did that during the debt ceiling debacle in 2011 when Boehner got 98% of what he wanted. Thankfully Obama has learned his lesson.

I'm not fond of that definition of "Leader".

He has been talking with Corker (R) to get some kind of deal done here recently. Maybe he can get Republicans to break away and they can actually pass something that cuts spending and closes tax loopholes.

If that happens I'm sure he won't get any credit for the spending cuts and ll the blame over the tax loopholes.

If you insist on talking about which party cuts benefits for veterans I can oblige you:

GOP Looks at Cutting Veterans Health Benefits for 2011-12 Session to Fulfill Pledge | Veterans Today

How about first responders for 9/11:
Senate GOP blocks 9/11 first responders health plan bill - The Hill's Healthwatch

You are on pretty shaky ground with this argument, but keep trying, something may stick.

TheOak · 03-18-2013, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Rickh

Libertarians call that war illegal too. Just ask Ron Paul.

I haven't picked apart bill provisions to claim that so-and-so voted against this and that.

That is a tactic, please link a thread where I've done that and I'll apologize.

A "leader" must be what you call someone who gives into all of the Republican demands and let's himself get run over in spite of the results of our most recent election. Obama did that during the debt ceiling debacle in 2011 when Boehner got 98% of what he wanted. Thankfully Obama has learned his lesson.

I'm not fond of that definition of "Leader".

He has been talking with Corker (R) to get some kind of deal done here recently. Maybe he can get Republicans to break away and they can actually pass something that cuts spending and closes tax loopholes.

If that happens I'm sure he won't get any credit for the spending cuts and ll the blame over the tax loopholes.

If you insist on talking about which party cuts benefits for veterans I can oblige you:

GOP Looks at Cutting Veterans Health Benefits for 2011-12 Session to Fulfill Pledge | Veterans Today

How about first responders for 9/11:
Senate GOP blocks 9/11 first responders health plan bill - The Hill's Healthwatch

You are on pretty shaky ground with this argument, but keep trying, something may stick.

No. I am not on shaky ground... You keep forgetting I pick NO SIDE. I dislike and distrust ALL politicians... You happen to trust and like one...

And you know what... If veterans benefits are NOT PAIDFOR.. then they get cut... So goes Obama care which isnt paid for... Ive repeatedly said EVERYTHING needs to get cut at least 10%.

Here is one for foy:

They take credit here:
"And the Democrats have lived up to that duty, he said. Since they took the lead in Congress in 2006 and since President Obama was sworn into office, “we have seen the greatest increase in the VA budget since World War II,” Cleland pointed out."

But claim its the Republicans fault they can not get anything passed? So when the Dems control everything but the President they can get sh1t done, as soon as they have all three they cant do a thing...

Hog wash.

Who the fk was in office in 2006 when the Democrats are taking credit?

03-17-2013, 09:58 AM	#31
Rickh Not here 2agree Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 567	Re: John Brennan sworn in on historic first draft of Constitution Originally Posted by TheOak Ok.. I am going to need clarification here... If you do not blindly trust then you require delivery on promises... Can you detail the delivered upon promises from Barry? I don't recall him standing at the podium and stating "I will @#$k each and every one of you with no hug or reach around if I am elected". Bush may have done some bad crap.. But he told you he was going to do it that way. Where I have seen liberals fall victim for the most part is the unintended consequences that their Utopic dreams cause. Some how they do not see that all they are giving is being taken away from somewhere else. You may not like this list but if the argument is "he hasn't done anything" this list shows he has. 1. Obamacare (Affordable Care Act) 2. Ended the Iraq War 3. Saved US Auto Industry, he went entirely against what the GOP wanted at the time. He gets big credit here. 4. Removed banks from Student Loan program There is more, but you get the point, he did stuff. The only utopic dreams I hear about are the "small govt." dreams that take the country back to the times of the 19th century robber barons. You had mentioned in a previous post that I can certainly have T. Roosevelt. I'll take him gladly for his work busting the Trusts among other things. I hear both conflicting arguments on the right: 1. Obama is ineffective and does nothing 2. Obama is brutally effective and driving this country into a state controlled socialist economy with absolute dictatorial powers. Neither of those is true, and they don't even agree with each other. Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!

03-17-2013, 05:25 PM	#32
TheOak Site Donor Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 7,631	My question was very clear. I did not ask what he has done, I asked what promises has he kept. Big difference. You know his promises. BTW he gets no credit for military successes that he voted against in the first place. Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!

03-17-2013, 06:02 PM	#33
Rickh Not here 2agree Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 567	Re: John Brennan sworn in on historic first draft of Constitution Originally Posted by TheOak My question was very clear. I did not ask what he has done, I asked what promises has he kept. Big difference. You know his promises. BTW he gets no credit for military successes that he voted against in the first place. This isn't a really good argument for you. Obama obviously promised a health care bill, ending the Iraq war, and talked at length regarding student debt. I can cite examples if you like bu this was pretty obvious. I'm not sure he said specifically he'd bail out auto makers before the election but I can look that up also. What military success did Obama vote against in the first place? Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!

03-17-2013, 06:11 PM	#34
TheOak Site Donor Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 7,631	Originally Posted by Rickh This isn't a really good argument for you. Obama obviously promised a health care bill, ending the Iraq war, and talked at length regarding student debt. I can cite examples if you like bu this was pretty obvious. I'm not sure he said specifically he'd bail out auto makers before the election but I can look that up also. What military success did Obama vote against in the first place? Seriously? You both, think I wouldn't have brought it up if it was not easy to argue..... And you don't know his voting record? Ill follow with examples of how he voted. Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!

03-17-2013, 06:22 PM	#35
TheOak Site Donor Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 7,631	On the war in Iraq you give and he takes credit for: Votes against funding: He voted against a successful bill in 2007 which funded the Iraq War without including a timetable for withdrawal (H.R. 2206) [source: The Washington Post]. In 2007, he voted against another successful bill which gave $120 billion in funding for the Iraq War (vote 181), but voted for two different votes on a separate failed bill (HR 1591), which appropriated similar amounts for the Iraq War but included timetables for American troop withdrawals [source: The Washington Post]. As a liberal that is against corporate profits this should make you nauseated: He voted against an amendment in 2005 (S. Amdt. 31) that would have capped the amount of interest allowed to be charged on credit at 30 percent [source: U.S. Senate]. From a Veteran. F-U Barry In 2005, he voted in favor of a motion to waive an amendment to provide an additional $500 million per year from 2006 to 2010 to be used for mental health services for veterans [source: U.S. Senate]. Now on to promises/ Tax Reform - FAIL Sorry..... Your either not trying or taking the liberal angle and letting me do the work. Here is nearly six pages of failed promises. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...romise-broken/ Jack! Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!
	You should expect some in my replies.

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03-18-2013, 06:46 AM	#36
Rickh Not here 2agree Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 567	Re: John Brennan sworn in on historic first draft of Constitution Oh good lord!! He gets credit for getting the country *out* of Iraq. Not anything that happened while we were in this unnecessary and avoidable war. In other words, if McCain would have won, we would still be there spending blood and treasure in that country. Can you really twist reality to the point that Obama has nothing to do with our leaving Iraq? Go ahead give that a shot. "As a liberal against corporate profits" wow ... are you "strawman"ing me enough? I'm not against corporate profits. Neither are the ever evil liberals. Monopolies (too big to fail) corporations that make excessive profits through legal manipulation and undue political influence, that's what I'm against. If we are oversimplifying arguments today, I guess you must be for this. Are you talking about the amendment stuck onto that horrible 2005 bankruptcy bill? You are really picking out an amendment that's part of a bill and blaming "Barry" for it? That's a political trick, not really a discussion. That 2005 bill by the way, was a Republican reach-around for their bank buddies to stem "Bankruptcy abuse". It makes it harder for people to prove that they should be able to clear their debts in bankruptcy. I'm pretty glad Obama voted against that. On the veterans bill the whole story is here (same source as you). PolitiFact \| In protest, Obama voted against This vote had to do with the timetable provision of leaving troops in Iraq. So what we are left with is: taking provisions in bills, which are overall sucky, and saying "Obama voted for that!!" as if it was the point of the bill. Thats some good "echo chamber" stuff, doesn't work with me. Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!

03-18-2013, 07:26 AM	#37
TheOak Site Donor Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 7,631	Re: John Brennan sworn in on historic first draft of Constitution Originally Posted by Rickh Oh good lord!! He gets credit for getting the country *out* of Iraq. Not anything that happened while we were in this unnecessary and avoidable war. In other words, if McCain would have won, we would still be there spending blood and treasure in that country. Can you really twist reality to the point that Obama has nothing to do with our leaving Iraq? Go ahead give that a shot. "As a liberal against corporate profits" wow ... are you "strawman"ing me enough? I'm not against corporate profits. Neither are the ever evil liberals. Monopolies (too big to fail) corporations that make excessive profits through legal manipulation and undue political influence, that's what I'm against. If we are oversimplifying arguments today, I guess you must be for this. Are you talking about the amendment stuck onto that horrible 2005 bankruptcy bill? You are really picking out an amendment that's part of a bill and blaming "Barry" for it? That's a political trick, not really a discussion. That 2005 bill by the way, was a Republican reach-around for their bank buddies to stem "Bankruptcy abuse". It makes it harder for people to prove that they should be able to clear their debts in bankruptcy. I'm pretty glad Obama voted against that. On the veterans bill the whole story is here (same source as you). PolitiFact \| In protest, Obama voted against This vote had to do with the timetable provision of leaving troops in Iraq. So what we are left with is: taking provisions in bills, which are overall sucky, and saying "Obama voted for that!!" as if it was the point of the bill. Thats some good "echo chamber" stuff, doesn't work with me. All war is avoidable. Unless you are a Spartan and submit is not an option. Liberals would have surrendered to Xerxes. All Liberals are - Theron No twisting reality. The only reason we left Iraq willingly is because his votes to not fund our soldiers were losing-votes. Had they been defunded they would have never left in boots, soldiers would have been buried there. "Monopolies" and too big to fail are because of Government interference. "if" the Government would just let them fail then we would be in a better place, "if" the government enforced antitrust then they would not become monopolies. In 2005 he voted to eliminate a credit card interest cap... If you are going to afford him the big picture then you need to get off the back of Republicans doing the same thing now and refusing to vote for all the crap your people hide in bills. Yes that is the truth... He did just like he did for the sequester.. Played politics because he couldn't get a withdraw date... He held our soldiers well-being hostage for a withdraw date. Read your article again.. "Obama held out". Final paragraph "Through his proxies, McCain fails to put Obama's vote in the proper context, so we cannot rate this statement True. Still, even though Obama had his reasons, the fact remains that he voted against the bill, which leads us to conclude that McCain's statement is Mostly True. " Luckily for me the facts "not working" for you do not change them, nor does it "not working for you" effect my view. You have proven to be pro politician, and not pro leader.... A LEADER does not let his Soldiers go ill equipped for a date that would telegraph key information to the enemy, nor does a LEADER allow a sequester to again hurt the military or school kids, just so he can hold out for a tax issue. As far as liberals calling the Iraq war illegal-unnecessary-avoidable.. You need to attack the 82 Democrats in the House and the 29 Democrats in the Senate for voting FOR the Iraq Resolution. I knew it wouldn't take long to flush out the real frame of mind... It has fully surfaced. Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!
	You should expect some in my replies. Last edited by TheOak; 03-18-2013 at 07:32 AM..

03-18-2013, 10:45 AM	#38
Rickh Not here 2agree Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 567	Re: John Brennan sworn in on historic first draft of Constitution Libertarians call that war illegal too. Just ask Ron Paul. I haven't picked apart bill provisions to claim that so-and-so voted against this and that. That is a tactic, please link a thread where I've done that and I'll apologize. A "leader" must be what you call someone who gives into all of the Republican demands and let's himself get run over in spite of the results of our most recent election. Obama did that during the debt ceiling debacle in 2011 when Boehner got 98% of what he wanted. Thankfully Obama has learned his lesson. I'm not fond of that definition of "Leader". He has been talking with Corker (R) to get some kind of deal done here recently. Maybe he can get Republicans to break away and they can actually pass something that cuts spending and closes tax loopholes. If that happens I'm sure he won't get any credit for the spending cuts and ll the blame over the tax loopholes. If you insist on talking about which party cuts benefits for veterans I can oblige you: GOP Looks at Cutting Veterans Health Benefits for 2011-12 Session to Fulfill Pledge \| Veterans Today How about first responders for 9/11: Senate GOP blocks 9/11 first responders health plan bill - The Hill's Healthwatch You are on pretty shaky ground with this argument, but keep trying, something may stick. Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!

03-18-2013, 11:17 AM	#39
TheOak Site Donor Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 7,631	Re: John Brennan sworn in on historic first draft of Constitution Originally Posted by Rickh Libertarians call that war illegal too. Just ask Ron Paul. I haven't picked apart bill provisions to claim that so-and-so voted against this and that. That is a tactic, please link a thread where I've done that and I'll apologize. A "leader" must be what you call someone who gives into all of the Republican demands and let's himself get run over in spite of the results of our most recent election. Obama did that during the debt ceiling debacle in 2011 when Boehner got 98% of what he wanted. Thankfully Obama has learned his lesson. I'm not fond of that definition of "Leader". He has been talking with Corker (R) to get some kind of deal done here recently. Maybe he can get Republicans to break away and they can actually pass something that cuts spending and closes tax loopholes. If that happens I'm sure he won't get any credit for the spending cuts and ll the blame over the tax loopholes. If you insist on talking about which party cuts benefits for veterans I can oblige you: GOP Looks at Cutting Veterans Health Benefits for 2011-12 Session to Fulfill Pledge \| Veterans Today How about first responders for 9/11: Senate GOP blocks 9/11 first responders health plan bill - The Hill's Healthwatch You are on pretty shaky ground with this argument, but keep trying, something may stick. No. I am not on shaky ground... You keep forgetting I pick NO SIDE. I dislike and distrust ALL politicians... You happen to trust and like one... And you know what... If veterans benefits are NOT PAIDFOR.. then they get cut... So goes Obama care which isnt paid for... Ive repeatedly said EVERYTHING needs to get cut at least 10%. Here is one for foy: They take credit here: "And the Democrats have lived up to that duty, he said. Since they took the lead in Congress in 2006 and since President Obama was sworn into office, “we have seen the greatest increase in the VA budget since World War II,” Cleland pointed out." But claim its the Republicans fault they can not get anything passed? So when the Dems control everything but the President they can get sh1t done, as soon as they have all three they cant do a thing... Hog wash. Who the fk was in office in 2006 when the Democrats are taking credit? Share Share this post on Digg Reddit! Twitter! Facebook!
	You should expect some in my replies. Last edited by TheOak; 03-18-2013 at 11:20 AM..

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