On face value, of course everyone wants to make as much money as possible and when painted with that brush who wouldn't want a higher minimum wage? When looking at it from a huge corporation you don't see the problem do you? Well I looked at this issue a little deeper than most.
Lets look at it on a smaller scale.
Tom's grocery brings in enough revenue to support $100,000.00 per year of employee salary, it is located in a blue collar neighborhood. Toms store is open 7 days a week for 16 hours a day. He has roughly $274 to spend per day on wages for employees, which breaks down to $17.12/hour. He has a stock guy Barry and a cashier Michelle that split that hourly allotment @8.56/hour each working 5.7 hours per day, with Tom working the gap hours alone because he can not afford overtime.
Min Wage is $7.25/hour presently and our Government is wanting to raise it to $10.10/hour.
What are the possible solutions for Tom? Tom could hire illegals and pay them cash resulting in Barry or Michelle having no job. However; Tom is a law abiding citizen and does not want to do that.
The Liberal Approach: Increase minimum wage, giving the community more money to "possibly" spend more money at Toms Grocery. This creates instability in Toms balance sheet. Immediately Tom is forced to make a decision to keep his store open, he has to either cut hours more, or let Barry go and stock his own shelves, because next payday he will feel the full burden of an increased minimum wage.
The Conservative Approach: Maintain minimum wage, cut taxes which does not effect Toms employees negatively, but does put more money in the pockets of the community. If they do not spend it at Toms, he is not hurt, if they do spend it there Tom has the freedom to raise Barry and Michelle's wages, or hire a third so Barry and Michelle can have a day off, or Christmas bonus.
I am inviting any and all liberals to outline a solution to Toms dilemma that falls with in your party's line. Do you put Barry and Michelle Soetoro out of work?
So yes, I am retracting my previous support for minimum wage being raised, for the reasons outline above. You can now see why small private business owners do can not handle increased healthcare costs for their employees, can not handle a higher minimum wage.
There we go, I thought you would come around. "Not a Republican" indeed, you're a Republican, you should embrace it.
On to your post.
Let's ignore the fact, for the moment, that raising the minimum wage to $9 an hour as has been proposed on the federal level will give those wage earners the exact same buying power as they had in the 1980's. The fact is that the poor have been getting poorer. I don't remember small businesses (as in your example) going bankrupt left and right under Reagan. maybe that's just me. :)
Let me give you a different example.
Mitt and Ann are two employees at Wal-Mart. They earn minimum wage. They have children. I agree it sucks for them and they should get better jobs, but that's what they have. Wal-Mart is making HUGE profits right now and could easily afford to hike all of it's minimum wage earners a couple of bucks an hour. They don't and therfore, Mitt and Ann out of necessity are on public assistance for food.
Can you imagine, this couple works full time, both of them. Yet they make so little that the taxpayer is subsidizing food for Wal-Mart employees. Awesome for Wal-Mart, not so awesome for the tax payer. Damn corporate freeloaders --- what can you do. If they increased the minimum wage many of these people could get off of govt. assistance and live on their own means. Also Wal-Mart could quit sponging off of the govt.
What is the problem with increasing the minimum wage so that these people have the same buying power as they did under Reagan? Businesses are hoarding cash right now. The stock market is at record levels. Let some of that cash get back into the economy and actually help the recovery.
Tom's grocery store will get new customers, expand and actually be able to hire Sasha and Malia as new cashiers.
You did not address Toms present predicament. The OP is not about Wal-mart, it is not about any corporations, I thought I clearly outlined that fact, and much like the MFing liberals in office there is no solution from you other than "they will get"... How damit? I asked you to explain in that scenario... Address the issue at hand as I have asked with out bringing up the past or anyone else.
Your reply is basically screw Toms as long as Mitt and Ann can get more pay. Mitt and Ann can go get jobs somewhere else if they do not make enough, they have that option.
Tom on the other hand does not have an option when Min wage is raised, other than to let people go.
Just like your President, as long as you can put it to the corporations you could careless about the small private business owner. The type of person that this country was built upon.
Explain in detail how the bold part of your reply will happen????? When conservatives ask for the details of Obama's plans this is what they are asking for... A plan, not a ****ing hope.
What you are actually doing is putting Tom out of business and forcing the frikken Obama's to go to work for evil Wal-Mart. Brilliant... keep driving corporations.
I gave you a different example. You don't deny my example or say it isn't valid. It is valid actually. I gave a counter example to yours. Feel free to pokes holes in it.
You also didn't address the fact that this is not a "new" level of buying power for minimum wage workers. Its what they used to make when Reagan was president.
Also, it sounds like Tom's grocery is just barely getting by. Barely getting by to the point where they could fail. Isn't failure part of the free market economy? Not all small businesses are on the verge like this but for ones that are, failure is exactly what happens in the business environment. It's called Capitalism. Not all small business fail but some do.
I did address Tom's at the end more of my post. If it can afford to hang in there until there is more money in the economy. If he can't hang on, he goes under. This is the free market, you are in favor of free markets right?
Oh, also you keep telling me you wanted detail. Do you really want me to give you detail on how money distributes in a free market economy?
I can if you'd like but I thought you were in favor of this economic model.
Thanks for playing. You have proven my point. You cant present a solution to to what raising minimum wage would do to Tom's store. You cant have a discussion with out bringing up past presidents and their policy.
Tom the small business owner does not give a crap about an alternate example, he has real world problems and real world employees. He is surviving just fine and because he is paying above the minimum wage and not making a profit you say he is failing. I bet small business owners will love you after reading this.
Failure is part of the free market. If Tom fails it should be by his own volition, not under the boot of the Government.
Tom does not care about the complexity of the free market economy. He wants to know how you are going to raise minimum wage and not put him out of business.
I did completely address your scenario, if their present jobs at Wal-Mart are not paying the bills they are free to find any jobs they want to. They are granted "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" by the Declaration of Independence.
Thus far your only solution is to send Tom, Barry, and Michelle to work for Wal-Mart.... The huge satanic profiteering corporation, because the only option Tom has is to raise prices and lose business because he can not compete. Thanks for driving a private business owner out of a job and giving Wal-Mart a reason to lower pay (supply and demand), increase in job seekers means jobs can be filled at a lower wage due to competition.
You can run your THEORY all you want to, my scenario is proven by statistics.
Obama Unemployment Rate by year:
2012 - 8.1
2011 - 8.9
2010 - 9.6
2009 - 9.3
Bush Unemployment rates by year
2008 - 4.6
2007 - 4.6
2006 - 5.1
2005 - 5.5
2004 - 6.0
2003 - 5.8
2002 - 4.7
2001 - 4.0
United States Unemployment data
BTW the Market is up because the Fed has driven interest rates down. It is an engineered rise in the market. Not because businesses feel more stable under Obama... Those corporations you hate are getting cheaper loans.
How Interest Rates Affect The Stock Market
FYI the DJI is just NOW getting back to where it was in 2007
Dow Jones Industrial Average 2 Minute: INDEXDJX:.DJI quotes & news - Google Finance
oh boy, you're quoting unemployment statistics. I suppose you are trying to tell me that Bush's policies have nothing to do with unemployment in 2009. Clinton also has nothing to do with them from 2001.
BTW, don't quote stats back to 2001 and tell me not to bring up past presidents.
"I say Tom is failing"? Your original example has Tom's store barely on the edge. Please don't start changing stuff now. This is a hypothetical store right?
You really aren't pointing out where I'm wrong in my example. I'd like for you to try doing that. Calmly.
Govt. raising minimum wage is not the "boot of govt." falling on all small businesses. Really dude, hyperbolic much?
I have plenty more for your "points" but I have a 10AM meeting. I'll post later.
Try replying with a solution.
I pointed out clearly at least twice the issues with your example. Not my fault you cant understand the reality that they are not forced to work for Wal-Mart. You keep ignoring the fact that they have choices.
BTW my original scenario has Tom paying over Minimum wage, $1.31 OVER minimum wage to be precise, that's not failing, that is an employer taking care of his people the best that he can... Is that not the way it should be? That is what Costco does and you applaud it.
What you have failed to realize is that Tom is paying out all the pay that he can afford and not caring about minimum wage, shouldn't that be the focus for employers?
Your Wal-Mart is paying minimum wage, so who is closer to closing the doors?
Again, you have no solution for Toms Grocery other than to put him out of business, and Ill not reply again until you have a solution for Toms Grocery under your increased minimum wage.
how smug... keep avoiding everything else and just concentrate on the one example of the small business that can't afford a $1 raise for its two employees.
I realize that all my other points explaining how getting more money into the economy is good you have to ignore. You don't want to acknowledge that increasing the minimum wage to a previous level in real dollars is a good thing because you have now taken the opposite position.
Don't pretend that the posts aren't addressing this tho, it's bad form.
So should we lower the minimum wage back to $5.15 from were it was previously? Would lowering the minimum wage boost the economy?
Maybe, we can have minimum wage be $2.00 an hour. The economy would soar like an eagle then!!
Oh I see you're not answering any more. That's fine, your ridiculous example of an entire store that can't afford literally $80 per week and now has to go bankrupt.
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