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to euph

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; you told me to take an economics classs so i could understand how capitalism mandates that you have the poor. i am sorry i don't find that to be true in your under explained point of view. you will always ...

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Old 09-23-2005, 11:43 PM   #1
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to euph

you told me to take an economics classs so i could understand how capitalism mandates that you have the poor. i am sorry i don't find that to be true in your under explained point of view. you will always have poor because it is a system that rewards hard work and innovation. so there will always be people that wish to work harder then others. those people will be rewarded. i don't care if you are talking about physical work or work towards an eduation. they are one in the same. people that are poor make a choice. they choose not to work as hard as the next guy. which was my original point. capitalism which is founded on the idea of competition and self interest is the perfect system. i could get into every aspect of it but you get my point.

as far as price guaging, this is a natural response to the situation. if supplies are limited and the damand is the same or higher then the price goes up. when people argue against this they have to understand that the price is set by the demand. at the same time if a bottle of water is under normal circumstance 1 dollar. well when a hurricane hits and the supply is hindered the price will naturally rise for a bottle of water. this is how the system works the best. lets say that the bottle of water that used to be 1 dollar goes to 10. well now someone goes into the store to get water but instead of the water being 1 dollar it is 10. he may buy 2 botttles of water instead of 20. the next famly that comes in may do the same. they may get what they can afford and more importantly what they need. now if the government comes in and says well you can only charge 1 dollar for the water regardless of the situation then what will happen. you will have the first guy go in and buy 20 bottles of water instead of him buying two. what happens when that store runs out of water. less peoeple end up with water because the fact that price was kept down had people buying more then they would have or needed. so when the government prevents what is so called price gauging people end up with nothing instead of less. the shortage extends

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Old 09-24-2005, 02:48 AM   #2
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RE: to euph

Macro and mirco economics - a sheer joy to think about. Some of the "funnest" classes I ever took.

Dude, you're right, and I won't argue the points you've made. They're correct.

But... I will argue that the entire model is more encompassing than the model you've just described. I'm drunk, I just staggered into the temporary housing, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass. But... I'll throw this out.

If supply goes up, what happens to demand? If demand goes up, what happens to supply? If supply rises to meet demand, then what happens to prices? If demand rises to meet supply, what happens to prices? If prices rise, what happens to supply and/or demand?

It's hits a point where it's no longer simple. It becomes sets of infinite series, depending on the viewpoint, like the bouncing basketball that only bounces half as high on every bounce. Does that ball ever stop bouncing? Did you ever take calculus in school? Geometric progressions...

What you said above is accurate. I won't argue it. What you said above, however, is not the total all-encompassing equation. There are more points that can be made, depending on the viewpoint. And they'd be just as right. For instance, if supply is limited and demand is high (resulting in prices going up), then supply goes up, whenever possible. That's only one small example from one small drunken viewpoint. There are so many scenarios that it become bewildering. And all of them are right....

OK, that's enough from my drunk ass.

can anyone help me id this tune? it goes thwap thwap boom tch boom tch boom tch.

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Old 09-24-2005, 03:45 AM   #3
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But when you're living in a devastated area as I was, unable to get to an ATM because the line is a mile long, can't pay the gas prices because you lost your job, then you have a right to *****. I understand everything you are saying, but, in South MS and Louisiana's circumstance, keep every price low and let the people get back on their feet. It might sound selfish, but, charge the rest of the country extra for gas, water, ect.. and let us rebuild. I'm drunk and don't know if this is the direction you were taking with this conversation, but this is my viewpoint.
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:17 AM   #4
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no deuce actually i was only saying that by keeping the price low people will stock up out of fear. it is called expectation and is one of the determinants of demand. what happens though is because there is only so much to go around by keeping the price low less people will end up with a share of the supply because other people will buy as much as they can. the market will balance itself if you leave it alone. does that make sense?

hey i hear you loe. i am taking macro economics. you are right there is so much more that goes into it. i love this class though. it is great. loe you had me cracking up when you started throwing out those questions because in chapter three it is all about that. that ****s funny.

also i wasn't trying to start an argument with euph.

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Old 09-24-2005, 09:46 AM   #5
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As long as there are men like Tom Benson there will be poor...

LMAO.

The same is true for LOE.
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:08 PM   #6
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as far as price guaging, this is a natural response to the situation. if supplies are limited and the damand is the same or higher then the price goes up. when people argue against this they have to understand that the price is set by the demand. at the same time if a bottle of water is under normal circumstance 1 dollar. well when a hurricane hits and the supply is hindered the price will naturally rise for a bottle of water. this is how the system works the best. lets say that the bottle of water that used to be 1 dollar goes to 10.
Go back later and beat the bich for charging 10 , raising their medical expenses to average out ....
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:10 PM   #7
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Yes so you took my advice took the class I applaud you... Let me leave you with this: 'not everyone can be rich my friend', sometimes you work so hard to survive and you still lose.
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:13 PM   #8
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Re: to euph

Originally Posted by spkb25
you told me to take an economics classs so i could understand how capitalism mandates that you have the poor. i am sorry i don't find that to be true in your under explained point of view. you will always have poor because it is a system that rewards hard work and innovation. so there will always be people that wish to work harder then others. those people will be rewarded. i don't care if you are talking about physical work or work towards an eduation. they are one in the same. people that are poor make a choice. they choose not to work as hard as the next guy. which was my original point. capitalism which is founded on the idea of competition and self interest is the perfect system. i could get into every aspect of it but you get my point.

as far as price guaging, this is a natural response to the situation. if supplies are limited and the damand is the same or higher then the price goes up. when people argue against this they have to understand that the price is set by the demand. at the same time if a bottle of water is under normal circumstance 1 dollar. well when a hurricane hits and the supply is hindered the price will naturally rise for a bottle of water. this is how the system works the best. lets say that the bottle of water that used to be 1 dollar goes to 10. well now someone goes into the store to get water but instead of the water being 1 dollar it is 10. he may buy 2 botttles of water instead of 20. the next famly that comes in may do the same. they may get what they can afford and more importantly what they need. now if the government comes in and says well you can only charge 1 dollar for the water regardless of the situation then what will happen. you will have the first guy go in and buy 20 bottles of water instead of him buying two. what happens when that store runs out of water. less peoeple end up with water because the fact that price was kept down had people buying more then they would have or needed. so when the government prevents what is so called price gauging people end up with nothing instead of less. the shortage extends
Your take on price gauging is only correct in a non profit environment. We live in a for profit society. So if demand goes up and supply becomes limited, of course price must go up. However, price gauging, what the government is correctly trying to stop by criminal prosecution is overpricing a certain product, say gasoline, in a time of an emergency not due to increased demand but due to greed for taking advantage of people in their weakest moments. Let's say the wholesale price of gas goes from $2.00 per gallon in a normal economic time to $3.00 per gallon in a crisis such as a hurricane due to higher demand, and logistical supply lines being cut. If your normal profit margin on gas is .50 cents per gallon then you should only raise your price from $2.50 to $3.50. This is an acceptable increase. However, if everyone else is pricing gas at their stations around the $3.50 mark and your gas is priced at $7.00 per gallon, you just got caught price gauging and thus are subject to prosecution.
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:01 PM   #9
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RE: Re: to euph

stockman you don't have to buy gas at the station that raises it that high. free choice. so if everyone raises that high lets say and noone is willing to buy it then that will drive the price down because they are not making a profit if they aren't selling their product. i am sorry i understand everyone's point on that and truly don't want to debate but i find that the government should keep their nose out of such things. the market will balance itslef out. like a seesaw. that is my opinion and if you have a different one i respect that. we can disagree.

euph you are right. some people try to become rich and fail. not rewarding hard work and innovation leads to lack of motivation. unfortunately as humans we are not perfect and we look for what we get out of something. whether or not it be what you get from helping someone in need to also what profit creating a product will give you. at one time in this country to land a good paying job you didn't even need to have a college education. then having a bachelors degree was enough. now it is moving towards a masters. it is competition. the funny thing about all that is that a lot of the truly rich don't have high degrees. they are innovators and not all of us have that talent. i for sure as **** don't. well take it easy euph. i see your point.

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Old 09-24-2005, 02:34 PM   #10
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I think stockman makes a valid point. (And for the record I took 3 economics classes with my low avergage being in the high nineties...almost majored in it till my prof told me there was no money in it. I understand all the premises being discussed here.)

Of course price goes up when there is limited supply and increased demand. But your profit margins should remain within reason.

For example....I left the Weds. after Katrina hit to help my friend in Pascagoula. Leavin from Atlanta, gas was going up about 10 cents every hour or so. The guys at the station just stopped posting the prices. By the end of the day, the folks still pumping gas were selling it for over three bucks a gallon.

There was a report that a guy was selling it for 5 dollars a gallon that day. He got in trouble....that is price gauging and I have no problem with someone stepping in to see that people don't get screwed.

I believe in capitalism, but I also believe in checks and balances. That's what (in theory) makes our country great. Without checks and balances, capitalism runs amock and people start getting screwed. For instance, a country being run by people with ties to certain types of companies, may steer the country in a direction based on the economic impact to that particular industry. You lose your checks and balances and certain interests prevail with no dissenting voice.

As far as the belief that all poor people are just lazy and they should get up off their asses. I don't buy it....some people really do have trouble getting out from under the system through no fault of their own. I also believe that the welfare system is screwed and there are folks who DO feed on it and become lazy. I guess I'm in the middle on that.... There are those who need some help. My dad died when I was 13 and my mom would have never been able to support my sister and I without those extra few hundred bucks a month. Am I lazy? Well, I put myself through college with scholarships and loans (as did my sister). I now have a wife, a kid, 2 houses, and a damn fine job where I make a great living. Government assistance helped us through a tough few years (87-92) and we got on with our lives. You can't just say that all government help breeds sloth.

Someone said on here a few weeks back that government programs are there to help some with the knowledge that some will take advantage of it. It's unfortunate, buit true. I once saw a guy buy food with food stamps then jump in a 4 runner.....it made me REALLY mad. The welfare system (like many other systems) needs to be better. But what makes you madder? A woman with 5 kids milking the system or 9 billion dollars vanishing into thin air in Iraq? I think both things suck ass and we should do more to manage all of our funds. I'm all for mandatory hysterectamies after the second welfare baby, by the way
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