Saints gains and loses
 

COMING AND GOING
Arrivals
Mitch Berger, P (UFA, STL)
Todd Bouman, QB (trade, MIN)
Kerwin Cook, WR
Chris Finlen, QB
Wayne Gandy, OT (UFA, PIT)
Departures
Jake Delhomme, QB (UFA - CAR)
Toby Gowin, P (DAL)
Kyle Turley, OT (STL)



Someone please tell me how this makes our team better ! :casstet:

Saints gains and loses
 

Look out Marvin... believing that the Saints haven\'t done the right thing so far in free agency is a very dangerous view to have. Pretty soon you\'ll have to take cover from the barrage of incoming posts questioning your loyalty, ability to think rationally, and mental and emotional state. God forbid you think that the team won\'t get better without more off-season moves that include higher caliber players... that\'s the ultimate sin on this board.

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(by the way - just in case you didn\'t know - I have the same feeling about free agency as you seem to - I got crapped on for it, so be careful)

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I am not trying to knock anyone opinion but I think we should be patient. The saints in my opinion have made good moves. Right now they\'re no players that stand out that we could pick up without losing draft picks however I would like the saints to pursue Orlandis Gary for a back up role. The conservative approach the saints have made should leave the team w/money to pay JOE HORN and be very aggressive for June 1st cuts.

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THANK GOODNESS FOR RODJMAW! Patience is the key word. There is still a long way to go before the season starts which means plenty of room for improvement. I agree that the signings we\'ve made haven\'t been truely significant, but we haven\'t gotten worse. Like I\'ve said before, the Saints are in a position to do some things through the draft and have to be holding back for a reason. If they do it is another story. We\'ll all just have to wait and see. I won\'t be so quick to judge them unless they just go and blow it. This still has the potential to be one of the best off-seasons the Saints have had in recent years. It will be hard to top last year\'s draft class, but the possibility is still there. Although the draft is a gamble, there is still the chance that some of the picks can be major players in the Saints turning around the team. We\'ll see what it brings to us when it happens. We just have to be patient.

EDIT: One more thing. Anyone who has been a Saints fan for years, knows what it\'s like to face losing. That makes some of us, hell all of us, to want the change NOW. Sometimes it just doesn\'t work like that. That\'s why I agree with Rodjmaw on being patient.

[Edited on 26/3/2003 by D_it_up]

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30 years worth of patience.....................we have not improved in the offseason, no wait I\'m wrong. We have a better punter and a fourth running back, 3 of which are vying for the 3rd string???????????????????

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OK - let me ask you guys that like that the Saints are being patient something.

If I understand you correctly, you\'re happy that a team with tons of money under the cap did not over pay any of the big name guys early in the off-season who every knows are good players (the Takeo Spikes of the world, if you will). You\'re happy to see them go after marginal players that basically equate to aging vets or giant question marks (with the exception of Gandy and maybe Berger - neither of whom play in our biggest area of need - DEFENSE). Is that right so far?

You believe that the Saints still have the ability to draft players that will come in and make an impact in their first year to improve this defense. Also, you\'re looking forward to the guys that they can pick up later in free agency, particularly after the June cuts. Is that right?

I\'m going to assume that I\'m at least close and continue. With the exception of Tebucky Jones (who may or may not be cut later this off-season) WHO exactly do you see the Saints picking up that will help this team? (By team I mean the defense b/c our offense and special teams are both some of the best in the league)

I just can\'t understand the optimism. Don\'t get me wrong. I don\'t think the Saints should be flinging money around right now. I don\'t think subguy thinks that either. I don\'t want to put words in his mouth, but I\'m upset b/c of their lack of action during the first two or three weeks of the off season when good players were still around. Of course we don\'t want them to blow their money on the crap players still unsigned right now. But that doesn\'t mean that I\'m excited about the June cuts. Again, this is an area I\'m not very versed in - so please tell me who I should be excited about come June.

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Whodat, I am not trying to make you feel more confident in the saints choices. The saints made reasonable deals in MY OPINION. Yes, I agree the saints should\'ve pursued Taeko, however noone knew how hot the situation with Turley. I believe the saints was more concern in offering the big money to players already on the team(Turley) and when that sour made the choice to keep the offense intact with signing Gandy.

With 2 1st round pick the saints are doing the right thing in my opioion by staying high above cap going in the draft and signing for depth. NOW REALLY with the exception of Takeo Spikes they\'re know other player (defense only) the saints could\'ve pick up to help the defense. Chris McCalister? lose 2 1st rd picks. Claiborne? highly overrated Colvin? we don\'t need a OLB hmmmm....what is left?

To answer who can get cut that we could pick up (not to be funny) go to nfl.com and check out the nfc and afc defensive player. Everyone has a chance of being cut. :casstet: Some people on here act like my wife, :hallucine: see money and ready to spend b4 the bills are paid

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damn, i thought my wife was the only one who saw things that way, that makes me feel so much better..........and don\'t forget the famous line, \"JUST CHARGE IT\" when you don\'t have any money after the bills are paid.....my reasoning- well, is\'nt this how we got in debt in the first place? her\'s- we\'ll always be in debt, just pay the minimum.....now , is\'nt the scenario like the saints? should we charge it now, gain something new that caught our eyes,(that we definitely know we need) although we will have to pay for it in the future, or save a little, maybe find a bargain or two and pay it off in cash? wishful thinking my wife will see the latter.........but it seems the route the saints are taking for now........a toast to the guy who invented beer and i\'m pretty sure his name was\'nt dixie.......smitty

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Rod - I agree that resigning our own, like Turley and Horn was, and is, very important. In retrospect, I know I was calling for Spikes like the rest of us, but I don\'t think it would have been a great move. But, you think Spikes was the only good MLB out there? What about Ketih Brooking, Claiborne is a MUCH better value for only a half mil more than we paid Ruff, Levon Kirkland, Shelton Quarles, Mark Simoneau, Nate Webster, and Bernardo Harris were all more talented or as talented and cost the same as Ruff, from what I know.

My point is NOT that I\'m upset that they\'re not throwing money away. Never have I said that. I do think that A - they should have spent to pull in some impact players, yes, and B - that if they\'re really looking for value, they could have found more of it in other places.

Everyone keeps saying that the June cuts are going to be so great and we\'ll be in a wonderful position to sign FAs then. However, from what I see, no one has any idea who is going to be cut. I\'ve heard speculation about two or three guys, but you guys are getting excited for a present you didn\'t open yet. Who knows if it will be key to a new Jag or just a keyring with your name on it?

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Hey man, it\'s not like I\'m not excited about the draft. I am. The prospect of picking up Trufant, Bailey, and Doss really excites me. But throw those guys in the lineup and you\'re talking about

Mitchell - 2nd year, first year as a starter with any significant playing time
Doss - rookie
Carter - 9th game as a Saint, we still don\'t know if he can stay off the hooch or if he\'ll pan out on the field
Trufant - I\'m not sure he\'ll start, but he\'ll be part of a secondary that also has Craver, who is in his second year and didn\'t get a lot of PT last year due to injury.
Ruff - first year with the Saints, he didn\'t play much last year and who knows what he can do.
Allen and Hodge are both young without a ton of PT. Throw Bailey into that mix and you have another rookie starter.
Grant - he played very well last year, but he\'s still only a second year guy don\'t forget.
Add a new DT, to replace Hand I\'m guessing, and you\'ve got a whole lot of new faces and YOUTH on D. Inexperience and little playing time as a group. That\'s a hit or miss recipe for this year. Certainly in years to come this group could be great. But looking ahead to this season... all I see are ?????????????

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No, I don\'t want the defensive team that we had on the field last year anywhere near the field this year. But I also don\'t want 11 rookies and first time starters running around out there either. You have polarized this argument to a ridiculous level - Option A - last year\'s defense. Option B - mortgage the future to put ten Takeo Spikes out there, or option C - build through the draft (which is not surprisingly the idea that you support). It\'s obvious which is best when you polarize the argument like that.

I love what we can do in the draft. I\'m just saying that I would have liked to see them use some of their money and/or draft picks to sign or trade for a couple of young EXPERIENCED players. I would like to see them do that before free agency ends. For example - I\'m not sure if the Woodson rumor was BS or what, but if not, why wouldn\'t you take that? Why not try to sign a guy like Keith Brooking? I like that they\'re going after Tebucky Jones... and I like that they\'re holding out for a third rounder on him - a second is too much.

I don\'t know if you guys believe that I\'m all for throwing picks and money away for any player with a big name or what. I\'m for improving our overall talent level through smart high value moves. I hate to harp on it, but the Claiborne deal remains a perfect example. Claiborne is a better value at three mill a year than Ruff is at two and a half. I\'m concerned that they will not have the right combination of TALENT and EXPERIENCE on defense THIS YEAR. I realize that they should be good for the next three or so years with the talent they\'ve got. After that, we could start hemmoraging players and it could all go down the tubes. The question is - can we take a shot at a title before then. I think we have that chance as early as this year if we can just add some talent AND experience to the defense.

Saints gains and loses
 

Just wanted to point out that they knew they were not going to resign Turley this past December, this was not something that was breaking news this past spring.

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BB, if they knew that they couldn\'t sign Turley why try to negotate a contract in February ;)

Whodat wasn\'t brooking Franchised, if so why give up two 1st rd to Atl. Mark Simoneau played MLB for ATL and it didn\'t work out (too small for MLB), Nate Webster same story. Bernado Harris, really invest in a player that will be 32 and skills are declining. Kirkland, we already have problems w/DT controlling their weight. Do u really want to take a gamble a MLB? Shelton Quarles, he fit for Tampa\'s defense cuz the LB are only strong safties but if you haven\'t notice u can run all day on tampa\'s defense. He is a good lb but not for the saints defense

Have a nice day ???? fans. Just kidding,

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WhoDat, your Logic on Jones makes no sense given the view you have on the Ruff/Claiborne half-million difference. If he\'ll imporove our D so much then why not part with a 2 for him?? Why hold out for a 3? Stop *****-footing around and pull the trigger. It\'s only a 30-some-odd-player difference in a draft of inexperienced players. We need \"young EXPERIENCED players\" and he\'s the safety you want right? So why not get him NOW?

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Rod, I thought contract negotiations with Turley ended in December. Now you have forced me to try and remember where I read that :P

Logic? Who said anything about logic? Logic would have landed us a 1st rounder for Turley, but it didn\'t. Jones hasn\'t played up to his potential. To me, that means he\'s got a dedication problem, which will only become a bigger problem in a city like New Orleans. Too many times players loose focus because of thier surroundings. I\'d rather take a chance on a safety in the 2nd (cause there are a few damn good safeties projected to go there) then trading it for a guy that may or may not bring his A game depending on if he feels like it.

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So, we should \"be patient\" and wait to see what discarded players we can pick up out of other teams\' garbage bins? Doesn\'t that sound like the John Meacom days? Maybe we can trade Aaron Brooks to Houston for a crippled offensive lineman too ! What I am trying to point out is that a team that gave up 26 points pergame seems to have done very little to improve in that area. Ok, we\'ll give up 20 points per game instead this year. Sure we have lots of draft picks but, draft picks usually take years to reach their potential, by that time our\"explosive\" offense will have been picked apart by teams who ARE willing to spend money in free agency to better their team. With a glaring need at MLB we did nothing to improve that position. With a QB recovering from shoulder surgery we let our backup go to another team in our division. I have been a Saints fan since their inception and sometimes I feel like i\'m in that movie Groundhog Day where the same thing happens over and over again. I have earned the right to feel a little negative about off season developements. Including purposely trading Turley to the Rams, the team with a coach he said he could never play for. Sounds like something you do in highschool.We showed him didn\'t we!?!? Now he\'ll have to play for a team that has made 3 trips to the big game and he\'ll have to do it for what $5 million a year? 35 years of patience and 1 playoff victory.

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Marvin - I couldn\'t agree with you more!! I understand the ideas behind building through the draft. I like them. I feel like we have built through the draft. We have a great offense and special teams that is going to be squandered if this defense doesn\'t improve fast.

Sure it\'s easy to sign the McAllisters, the Stallworths, Grants, Bentleys, etc. when their rookies. But what happens when their contract expires and they\'re all young stars? The way we spend our money there\'s no way. What happens when they all play up to and beyond expectations and want new contracts while they\'re still under contract - a la Aaron Brooks? Can we give them all the kind of money they want? No. Especially when you add another five picks this year! What happens if they al get upset and turn into problems b/c they\'re getting paid half of what they deserve?

With somewhere in the range of $25 to $30 million dollars available under the cap this year and five draft picks in the top three rounds the Saints could very easily have drastically improved their defense. The Rams did it a few years ago and went to the Super Bowl. We have that kind of a team. Great offense, terrible defense. We could do the same thing and go Bowling. Did the Rams have a bad season the year after they restocked? Yeah - last year. But that was due to INJURIES, not loos of players? Who did they lose? Warner, Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Conwell... ? Nope. Hakim, Proehl, and Dre Bly. Hakim was overrated and only played as well as he did b/c he had Holt and Bruce on his team - he showed that last year at Detroit. Proehl was their fourth receiver. Bly is a good corner, but not great. Overall, I\'d say their team is still pretty intact. That COULD BE US.

If we signed the type of impact players we need on D - we could have a shot at the super bowl. Would you guys give up Pathon, Jake Reed, and Dale Carter in the next two years to go to the Super Bowl this year? I sure as hell would.

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Me too. But our history shows,we can\'t hold on to anyone. They sit a year or so,come out have one good year and we don\'t want to pay. So adios. The object is to win however that has to happen. Whoever said,\"It\'s not whether you win or lose, it\'s how you play the game.\" Was not a competitor. If winning doesn\'t matter, then why keep score?

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B&B, the safety position this year is so-so at best. You honestly think there\'s a safety we should pick with our 2 that\'s better than Jones?

WhoDat, answer the question please. Why should we keep putting on this dog and pony show when it comes to Jones? Why not give up the 2 for him? We need to either s#!t or get off the pot...which one is it?

btw, if I\'m not mistaken....the Rams won the SB with a mediocre defense. They lost it with one of the best in the other year. With the exception of Aeneas Williams they did it thru the draft. Of course, I could be wrong with all this to...tho

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WhoDat, no problem speaking for me,you are correct. We should not just throw money around. I do however believe that you correct your weaknesses. We really haven\'t improved. Yes, we do need to take care of the unfinished business,like signing Horn,Fontenot. We have money to spend,we are certainly not shuffling around to make cap room. The simple fact is, if you do not correct your weaknesses,through a couple of KEY free agency signings....like D line, D back, we have stayed the same. You are very lucky to reap any benefit from the draft picks in the first year. We should all want to win NOW. The majority opinion on this board is draft picks are the future. To see if they will be our future look at our past. Almost sounded philosophical. Scared me for a second.

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The Rams signed a lot of free agents when they went back. Williams, Mark Fields, either Greene or Winstrom, I can\'t remember which...

You also have to understand Billy, that just because I want to win right now doesn\'t mean that I am willing to throw away money or picks to do that. I am fully behind the value proposition that the Saints are supposedly using. I do think that there are safeties, particularly Doss, who could very easily be around in the second round. Although Jones is a physical specimen, his play has been erratic. Besides, it\'s not necessarily another safety - it\'s another player. I believe that we can get a player with our number two who will be as good as Jones or better, who we can sign for less. The fact that Turley only drew a second next year and Roaf drew a conditional third this year tells me that Jones is not worth a second round pick.

Look, I don\'t mind how long the Saints wait, assuming, and this is the most important part of this statement, that they can sign impact players this off-season. I think it is very hard to sign players who can really improve this defense after the draft. That is even more true when trying to sign three plus players as opposed to one. Let me ask you this Billy - do you believe that Ruff or Ambrose significantly upgrade our liebacking corp or secondary?

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Fields sucked. That\'s why he was no longer a Ram after the year. Wistrom was drafted in 98 by the Rams. Greene retired in 98 or 99...if it\'s Kevin you\'re talking about. The big difference was Lovie Smith their new D co-ordinator that year.

To answer your question. No, I don\'t think they\'ve \"significantly\" upgraded anything yet. The thing you have to understand is that the management and coaches have had a plan going into every off-season since they\'ve been here. Up to and including the draft. You can\'t argue against the success they\'ve had at upgrading this team year-in and year-out since they\'ve been here can you? Of course you can pick spots here and there where the moves didn\'t pan out but good lord who\'s gonna bat 1,000%? What I\'m trying to say is that...well, what I\'m trying to say is they\'ve got a plan and they\'re working it. Like it or not you can\'t argue against the success they\'ve had with the previous ones...and they\'re working it again. Have a little faith man....well, maybe more than a little...

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Hey Billy, I agree that they have a plan. But having a plan doesn\'t mean that you have a GOOD plan. Think about this. Up to this point they have been very successful at improving our offense right? That has been the focus up until now. Well, of the entire offense, only Stallworth, Deuce, and Bentley were brought in via the draft.

Now, I\'m not sure about this, but as of right now I believe that Howard, Grant, Allen, Hodge, Craver, and Mitchell were all Saints draft picks. Of those, only Howard has more than two years experience. Now you\'re talking about adding another two or three rookies to the mix? I don\'t know about that.

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\"Experience is important in a few positions like MLB and Safety.\"

Wow Gator. Wow. So Charles Grant played as well last year as he will ever in his career? We can expect no more from LeCharles Bentley? Stallworth is a 40 reception receiver from here on out?

Every single player in the NFL, barring any major injury or unforeseen setback, gets better with expereince. Every single one. Experience makes you better at whatever you do, in any situation in life. That\'s why there are no 18 year old Presidents, CEOs, high level researchers, generals, etc etc etc.

There is a difference between being old and being expereinced. The most valuable players in football are 25 or 26 years old. They have 3 or 4 years of experience, but are still young and talented, with sharp skills and a bright future. Rookies make rookie mistakes b/c of lack of experience. C\'mon Gator, I expect more form you.

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WhoDat, you are preaching to the choir..........

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Gator - two new rookies certainly will not hurt. They\'ll be good players in New Orleans for at least the next three seasons, before they have a breakout year, we refuse to pay them, and they go somewhere else where there is a winning tradition, bigger market, and of course, more money.

I have no illusions about what the Saints are really doing. In fact, I made statements about where I thought that would lead this team. I got blasted for them. However, many of the people who are quick to tell me to face facts about what this team is doing in free agency can\'t see how their lack of action will affect this team in the coming season. I\'m not singling you out Gator. We get along great and I totally respect you and your opinoins. I\'m just saying - if you want to be real about free agent moves, then be real about a team\'s potential with a defense that looks to start a group of rookie, unknown, or over the hill players.

Gator, do you really think that they will \"draft for depth according to best player available\"? They won\'t. They\'ll find the best player available at an area of need! They will draft the best corner, safety, linebacker, defensive tackle, or tight end. Not the best player. If the Saints trade up to the top five, and by some miracle Charles Rogers is still around, do you think they will pick him up? No. They won\'t. B/c they NEED to fill HOLES in the defense. If they had spent a little money, and made a couple of smart moves they would have far fewer NEEDS and then they truly could draft the best player available at ANY poisition. But they didn\'t do that, so they can\'t. THey are locked into a corner and lb or dt or te in the first round. I\'ll bet you anything you want that they won\'t draft a player at any other position than the ones I listed in the first round. They can\'t afford it. They have to draft to fill holes. That sucks.

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Gator, filling you holes with inexperience is not smart. We have key positions that we haven\'t filled. I would be willing to say during the year you were heard to scream\"What the f is wrong with our D line\",or \"we should do some work in the secondary\".

Now you are faced with a team, with money to lay down. Yes, they need to hook up Horn and in my opinion Fontenot. But then we still have great money left.

You will not admit that a few precious gems of free agents never even came to N.O. for a look?

Give the money to rookies? The unproven one\'s? Unless we do some haggling on draft day, we left our holes unplugged. We replaced people with like talent. Maybe we saved some money,big deal,if you aren\'t willing to part with any of it.

Why can no one seem to see this? OMG...........look at the past. Ruff(unproven),Ambrose(been here done that), I will concede we signed a great punter and everyone knows that is the cornerstone to any winning program

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OK - let\'s consider some of the rookies we\'ve drafted since Haslett got here - how did they perform in their ROOKIE seasons? Deuce\'s rookie year was not very good, and let\'s be real - every rookie we bring in won\'t be a Deuce McAllister. In fact, very few will be. Stallworth lived up to his reputation for not being able to go a season without getting hurt. He impacted the team positively for the first five games. I believe he will be a great receiver in this league for years to come, but his rookie season was good at best. Grant, Bentley - see Stallworth. Now, consider other Saints draft picks over the last few years. What did Allen, Hodge, Mitchell, Craver, Boo Williams, or any other rookie do in their rookie season? Not much.

My point is not that I don\'t want rookies. Adding depth and finding an impact player or two through the draft is great. But our track record shows that we\'re not going to find more than two or so rookies that can come in and play well in their ROOKIE season. Now, that becomes even MORE true, according to you Gator, when you\'re expecting rookies to play at positions where \"experience is important\" such as linebacker and safety!

My point is, if we could have landed a Shelton Quarles, for example, and let\'s say we ante up a 2nd rounder for Tebucky (which I still don\'t really favor), then where would we be? You could still look at LB, S, CB, DT, and TE as areas of need that could be addressed. But now, if you land Boss Bailey, you\'ve got a really talented young linebacker playing next to a guy like Quarles, instead of a guy like Ruff. If you land Doss, you\'ve got a great fight between Jones, Doss, and Mitchell. A DT comes in and starts....

I\'m not saying rookies won\'t help this team. But with no veteran leadership to learn from, and little talent to help clean up their mistakes, or raise the bar for their level of play, they may easily start and it may cost us. You tell me which recent draftees are playing better now - Pennington and Vick, who had veterans that they could learn from and take time to develop, or Harrington and Carr who were thrown right into the starting line up? I know, it\'s QBs it is a totally different position. My point is that we have had a chance to really upgrade this defense with BOTH free agents AND draft picks. The best teams always seem to have a good mix of veteran leaders, young experienced talent, rookies, and wild cards. We\'ve got a wild card in Ruff, and we will have rookies... but we don\'t have any (except maybe Howard) young talent or good veteran leadership. As a result, I can\'t see this defense getting a whole lot better... Again, I hope I\'m totally wrong. I hope this is the best D in the league this year. I just don\'t see that happening.

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Gator, Gator, Gator. Tisk, tisk.

1. Do I think that TE is an area of need for this team? Somewhat. Not as much as defense... but that doesn\'t matter. What matters is that HASLETT sees it as an area of need. I am willing to bet that Haslett thinks Ruff is as good a linebacker as Sloan is a TE. If that\'s the case, then TE is as much a need as LB for this team. So again, they will find the best available player at an area of NEED. I am not arguing that in the past they have drafted for need. But over the last few seasons there has not been such a glaring need as there is this year at certain positions. Thus, unlike previous years where needs weren\'t overwhelming, they will look to fill holes this year b/c the holes are bigger than they have been since Haslett got here.

2. You are right, everyone must make a start somewhere. Let\'s look at this another way - name a player on our defense that you KNOW is solid other than Howard. Or, name a player on our defense that has a proven successful track record over the last three years besides Howard. You can\'t. B/c there isn\'t one. You\'re happy about that? I\'m not saying rookies are all bad, but their impact is diminished when you have NO PROVEN EXPERIENCED TALENTED VETERANS on the team to play along side of them. Are you going to dispute that?

3. I\'m not changing the subject. You\'re saying that rookies will make this team better. I\'m saying that there is no assurances of that... your odds are better when you sign a FA of knowing what you\'re getting b/c you have real NFL experience to base your decision on.

4. I\'m not changing my argument at all. Try to understand this Gator. I have never been against improving the defense IN PART through the draft. However, the impact that a rookie can have is weakened if they: A. play on a team where there are no veterans to challenge, coach, or help them, and B. when every mistake they make is amplified b/c the players around them are bad, instead of being taken care of by a great supporting cast.

Go reread Dante Stallworth\'s comments about how much having Horn, Reed, Pathon, etc. on the team helped ease his transition. We don\'t have any players like that on defense. We don\'t have veterans that have been in the league for years. We don\'t have players who have the talent to start elsewhere.

Try to hear me this time Gator. Building a team with a mix of free agents, draftees, and resigned players is the best way to build a team... can you argue with that? Again, this year we are losing players on defense. We do not resign our players - (see glover, johnson, knight, clemons...), and we aren\'t bringing in quality free agents.

Again, the proof is in the pudding Gator. Look at the Super Bowl teams for the last few years... Tampa rebuilt their offense primarily through free agency, Oakland is nothing but free agents, St. Louis rebuilt their defense via free agents and the draft, new england, new york, baltimore... it\'s all the same.

I\'m saying that we could have done more with our money. Adding Quarles, Jones, Trufant, and Bailey is better than adding Ruff, Ambrose, Trufant, and Bailey... or can you argue that point as well? B/c if you think that we don\'t have the money to make those kinds of moves you\'re flat wrong. C\'mon Gator, again you\'re polarizing my argument. It\'s not 100% free agents versus 100% draftees. You need a good balance of both. Right now, no matter how good the Saints draft is there will not be a good balance, b/c they haven\'t done crap in free agency.

You people are so happy about drafting players, b/c we may not be great this year, but think about how good we\'ll be three years from now with all these young players. How many players on on the team today that were here three years ago? You think we won\'t continue to have player turnover like that? Why, b/c they\'re young? Wrong. They\'ll follow money just like all free agents do. C\'mon Gator, can\'t you see that if this keeps up we\'ll be 9-7 every year, and every off-season you\'ll be happy about our new rookies, forgetting that the ones we drafted three years ago all left this year? Weren\'t you the one screaming for results this year... calling for Haslett\'s head if they didn\'t get better... talking abou thow they were squandering talent...? Wasn\'t that you? Now you\'re happy with marginal, if any, improvement after the most important part of free agency is done? Sure they\'ll get more talent through the draft. But we knew that would happen in January. We also thought that they would get better through free agency. But they didn\'t, and now you\'re willing to overlook that failure b/c they still might add talent through the draft... why is OK that they botched free agency to this point all of a sudden?

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Gator - how exactly have I contradicted myself? Have I changed my argument, in the slightest, that rookies are a good way to augment a team, but need veteran leaders to help their transition and play around them to make the team better? Have I swayed in that in the slightest?

You think b/c I said TE is a need that I\'m contradicting myself? Not at all. It is a need. Defense is a BIGGER need - but ask anyone else in this forum if they think HASLETT sees tight end as NEED - worthy of using a first or second round pick. Again, I am opertaing in reality.

You make statements like \"Whom I know to be solid has nothing to do with those players that will blossom into next year\'s superstar.\" Wow, really? I didn\'t know that you can see the future Gator. Who will be this year\'s SUPERSTAR on the Saints defense?

I\'m not saying that I know what is going to happen. Ashley Ambrose could have 75 interceptions and get elected to start at both corner positions at the same time for the Pro Bowl. Takeo Spikes could have come in here and broken his leg in practice and never played a snap. I make my judgements based on what I know about the Saints talent level and their history. This year marks the end to me. By that I mean that every talented player that we had on defense before he got here is now gone. The Saints screwed Knight. Clemons was a good linebacker year before last, now he\'s leaving after a bad year. They\'ve replaced every player with somone of marginal talent or character. Ruff, Carter, Hand, Jackson....

I\'m glad you\'re optimistic. I;m glad you like the draft. That doesn\'t change the reality of the fact that this defense is full of marginal players. Can our defense be better this year? Yes. Can they get enough better to allow this team to have a shot at the NFC South title or a Super Bowl. I seriously doubt it. Our offense showed at the end of the year last year that it is not invincible. If we\'re scoring 20 points a game, instead of 30 - that\'s really big trouble. I think our offense can be even better, but...

The point is that neither of us KNOWS what is going to happen. I look at a team full of unknown young players with little or no experience and marginally talented veterans at best who have never played together, are overwieght or have substance abuse problemss, led by possibly the worst defense coordinator that the Saints have had in the last 20 years, and I say, wow this defense is not going to be very good. You look at the same thing, and say, but we\'ll have two or three rookies - so we\'ll be much better. Hey man, if that\'s how you feel then great, but you\'re never going to get me to belive that.

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u guys are crazy... i have 2 words for both of you.....\"june 1st\"

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But that is exactly my point... shall we go through the track record of each and every player who is likely to start right now? I don\'t think that you want to do that Gator, b/c our defense is not full of talented players.

I am saying that Allen, Hodge, Ruff, Mitchell, and even Grant have little or no pro experience to base any prediction of future play on. Carter\'s recent history is full of substance abuse and now an injury. Hand and Jackson did not play particularly well in that last few years and now both are overweight.

You see Gator. I use these statements as proof - to strengthen my argument. You use comments like \"Whom I know to be solid has nothing to do with those players that will blossom into next year\'s superstar.\"

So Gator, on our defense, other than Darren Howard, please name a player that you believe to be a solid, better than average player, AND please give me a reason as to why you believe that. I\'m not dodging any issues. I am stating and restating time and again exactly why I think this defense is very questionable at best. But you know what, I\'ll break it down again for you...

1. Charles Grant - Good rookie season, should get better, but it is only his second year so you never know.
2. Grady Jackson - he weighs 400 pounds. You cannot go a 16 game season weighing that much and expect that your play won\'t suffer.
3. Norman Hand - Has played poorly in both of the last two seasons. His weight is a bigger issue now than before, so much so that it caused him to get hurt at the end of the 2001 season.
4. Darren Howard - undoubtedly the most talented and stable player on our D. He could be great if he had any supporting cast.
5. Sedrick Hodge - Did not play well on a linebacking corp that was absolutely horrible last year. This will only be his second year where he get significant playing time, and unless his play improves I would bet it will be his last as a starter with this team.
6. Orlando Ruff - I should include Smith as well b/c this is a MLB by committee system. Ruff didn\'t start for the Chargers last year. His best year EVER before that was not as good as Clemons\' very poor year last season. The Saints believe that he has talent, but there is no way of telling if this is a Horm type move or a move like... i don\'t know... the great plan of moving Clemons inside last year.
7. James Allen - has never had significant playing time, certainly not as a starter. Again, he is a guy who they think has talent, but b/c he has zero past to judge, he remains a giant question mark.
8. Dale Carter - If he can stay clean, AND he can recover from a broken arm, AND he plays like he did in about four games last season, he could be good. That\'s a lot of ifs for a 32 year old with substance abuse problems, who didn\'t really pan out the way we hoped last year, who, by the way, still has rods in his broken arm.
9. Fred Thomas - probably the second most valuable player on our defense behind Howard. He small and not real fast, but he tends to get the job done well. His year last year was not great, but then no ones was.
10. Mel Mitchell - second year player who saw the field at all very little last year. Now he\'s going to be a starter... they\'re real big on him... just like they were about Hodge last off-season, how\'d that work out again? oh yeah, not very well.
11. ???????? - we have no idea who our free safety will be at this point. As of right now it\'s Jay Bellamy. He\'s not so good.

So, Gator, who exactly on our defense is a solid player? Who has good experience to draw from? Who is obviously talented? Who has a proven track record with this team? Go ahead, throw two more rookies in there with our other two first time starters.

That\'s what I base my arguments on Gator. Those beliefs. What do you base yours on? Venturi\'s incredible ability to put a good d out on the field every game? You knowledge that these players, who mostly have no experience or a shotty track record will somehow all play up to or above the potential that the Saints believe that they have this year? Your ability to predict who the Saints will draft and how they will play this season?

Prove me wrong Gator. Give me hard facts about the players. Give me your beliefs about the players. And a couple other things:

1. I will bet you any amount of money that you want the the Saints will pass up extremely talented quarterbacks, runningbacks, wide recievers, defensive ends, etc etc etc in the draft, b/c they are filling holes. Those holes exist, in the organization\'s mind, at S, CB, LB, DT, and TE. Name the price Gator. If they could draft for best available and a great wide out was still around, that means that they would take him, b/c he is the best available player still on the board. There is no way that they will do that.

2. See above. Prove to me that this team has a player who is talented and expereinced, who doesn\'t have some question surround his ability. Thomas and Howard. That\'s it. And Thomas is getting old... and he\'s small.

3. No I did not say that to down play all rookies Haslett might draft, and now who is skating Gator? Saints rookies haven\'t played particularly well in their first seasons. Last year was a hell of an exception to that, I would expect it to be very easy for you to make an argument. Apparently, you cannot disprove that statement.

4. Again, there is absolutely no \"backtracking\" in that statement. I acknowledge that rookies can help (Grant, Stallworth, and Bentley all did last season). However, there were free agent acquisitions that player as well or better... and Stallworth admitted that having veterans around him made things easier. You\'re calling it backtracking b/c you cannot disprove that statement. And since you also cannot prove that our defense has talented experienced veterans, to admit to this means that you\'re admitting that our defensive draftees this season are not likely to play up to potential b/c they do not have the veteran support that they need.

It sure seems to me like I\'m the one making all the statements about this team, and you\'re just sitting back there going, \"Nuh uh\". So Gator, why don\'t you actually make a statement about this team\'s defense and try to back it up? Can you do that? I haven\'t seen you do it yet.

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ok guys, im goin to end this arguement... up to this point i have to agree with whodat in that we havent made the biggest splash in the FA market that we could have... but yet, free agency isnt over yet.... there is still the draft.... and after june 1st.. many players will be cut... so it will give us another shot at picking up some solid players on D...which i expect them to do....

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Just a few of your comments WhoDat from different posts in this thread.

Hey Billy, I agree that they have a plan. But having a plan doesn\'t mean that you have a GOOD plan. Think about this. Up to this point they have been very successful at improving our offense right? That has been the focus up until now. Well, of the entire offense, only Stallworth, Deuce, and Bentley were brought in via the draft.

Ok WhoDat...just because YOU don\'t agree with the teams plan does NOT...repeat....does NOT make it a bad plan. It just makes your idea of theirs wrong IMHO. To look at the paragraph above one is lead to believe that all you want is free agents and very few ORIGINAL draftees.

Now, I\'m not sure about this, but as of right now I believe that Howard, Grant, Allen, Hodge, Craver, and Mitchell were all Saints draft picks. Of those, only Howard has more than two years experience. Now you\'re talking about adding another two or three rookies to the mix? I don\'t know about that.

C\'mon, you make it sound like we\'ve not even tried on D in free agency. Give me a break!

You\'re saying that rookies will make this team better. I\'m saying that there is no assurances of that... your odds are better when you sign a FA of knowing what you\'re getting b/c you have real NFL experience to base your decision on.

Reading this statement one is now lead to believe you\'d like even LESS original draftees. I tell ya what...let\'s go with the odds. Hell, let\'s have a whole team of free agents. Odds are we\'d be better. Why should we waste our time and money on someone who has \'potential\'. Sign a free agent. Odds are we\'d be better. What a waste of time. Let\'s just stock our team with free agents. Odds are we\'d be better. Let\'s go with the odds. Anything else would be a horrible decision, waste of time, and resources. Lord knows we don\'t have time to wait. Time is running out!! Let\'s use NFL experience to base our decisions on. Odds are we\'d be better.

Try to hear me this time Gator. Building a team with a mix of free agents, draftees, and resigned players is the best way to build a team... can you argue with that?

Sure that can be argued. You said earlier that odds are better when you sign a free agent. Draftees??? Fahgetaboutit....let\'s trade our draft picks for, and sign free agents. After all, you said it. \"your odds are better when you sign a FA of knowing what you\'re getting b/c you have real NFL experience to base your decision on\". So, let’s do that. Let\'s go with the odds. Odds are we\'d be better.

Again, the proof is in the pudding Gator. Look at the Super Bowl teams for the last few years... Tampa rebuilt their offense primarily through free agency, Oakland is nothing but free agents, St. Louis rebuilt their defense via free agents and the draft, new england, new york, baltimore... it\'s all the same.

Rebuilt, rebuilt, rebuilt, just like every team does. EVEN the Saints. Just because they don\'t do it the way WhoDat wants it done doesn\'t make it wrong. Name me the big time free agents that put these teams over the top.

It\'s not 100% free agents versus 100% draftees.

Using WhoDat \"odds are\" logic, we should make it 100% free agents. After all, \"your odds are better when you sign a FA of knowing what you\'re getting b/c you have real NFL experience to base your decision on\". So let\'s make it all free agents. Odds are we\'d be better.

The point is that neither of us KNOWS what is going to happen.

That\'s right. THAT is exactly right. Truth is, you, Gator, Pak, me, Haslett, Loomis, etc, etc, etc, have no way of knowing what is going to happen. No one knows what will happen. The coaches and staff are putting together the team THEY want. The team THEY think will give them the best chance of winning. In the end we\'ll find out. I think they\'re going about it the right way.

They\'ll be good players in New Orleans for at least the next three seasons, before they have a breakout year, we refuse to pay them, and they go somewhere else where there is a winning tradition, bigger market, and of course, more money.

This is the kind of statement that really just pi$$es me off coming from anyone. Why not just head up a \"let\'s get rid of the Saints\" movement!! What\'s the purpose of having a team if that\'s ALL they do?? Don\'t even try to tell me that is NOT what YOU think they do because, THAT is EXACTLY what you JUST said. There were ZERO exceptions in your statement. So, why have a team? Why even bother? Why spend your time and effort even posting or thinking about the team, the future, or anything that has to do with the Saints if we\'re all just wasting our time. That\'s a ridiculous blanket statement.


Bottom line is:
The draft is around the corner.
The off-season is not over.

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In my opinion, fans that have stuck with teams through thick and thin have every right to berate the team, if they so choose. I\'ve been a fan of the Saints for the past 20 years, I\'ve seen how this organization operates, and can honestly say that this is the SOS I see every year (with the exception of the years that Muller was GM, and like everything else, he was shown the door). I can honestly say that there has not been a single better evaluator of talent that has been part of this organization, then Muller. But now he\'s gone because Benson didn\'t approve of some of his moves. And that last statement pretty much sums up what has taken place on this team for the past 20 years, both the good years and the bad.

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OK Billy,

As for your final comment - see B&B\'s post. I pull for the Saints no matter what, but being a fan does not, under any circumstances, mean I need to check my brain at the door. If I think that what they\'re doing is wrong, I\'m going to say it. That doesn\'t make me less of a fan.

As for your other comments. You and Gator have a hard time understanding that wanting more or better free agents is not mutually exclusive of wanting a good draft. If you were to bet on who would have a better year this year, and your choices were Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis, Takeo Spikes, and EJ Henderson, who would you pick? If you picked Henderson then either you don\'t like money or you\'re unrealistically optimistic about Henderson\'s abilities. Is it impossible that Henderson will play better than both? Absolutely not - but if it were your money on the line you\'d probably put it on a guys who has proven that he can play in this league year in and year out. I would.

That is my point. You DO have a much clearer picture of what you\'re getting when you sign free agents as compared to draftees. Does that mean I am against drafting players? Apparently it does to you, but then again it appears that you have a hard time understanding a person can want a good free agency AND a good draft in the same year.

I mean, really, if I use your ridiculous way of looking at things then it becomes obvious to me that you hate free agents. You want to cut every player on our defense and simply draft an entire new defense. Right? B/c you like draft picks so that means that you have to HATE current players and free agents. Right? Hopefully now you see how utterly stupid it is to assume that I only want free agents and no draft picks.

I mean, do you and Gator not like Shelton Quarles or Chris Claiborne? Are they not better than Ruff or Smith? We could have signed those guys. We didn\'t. We didn\'t sign any proven players on defense. That seems to be ok with you guys, b/c hey everything will be better once we draft new guys. Again, our draftees can help. But what\'s better, Ambrose, Ruff, Bailey and Doss, or Jones, Quarles, Bailey, and Trufant? That\'s not a very difficult question for me to answer. Apparently it is for you two. The second scenario could have been a reality, but the Saints dropped the ball.

If it looks like s--t, and it smells like s--t, then it probably is s--t. Well I\'m calling our pre-draft free agency period (the most important time in free agency) s--t from a defensive perspective. You guys seem to believe that drafting players will magically turn that s--t into a daisy. Doesn\'t work that way guys. We\'ll still have a pile of s--t and a daisy instead of two daisies.

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my puter froze, and i restarted and when i came back in, u was gone!!

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Aahh Gator, finally we agree... sort of.

You\'re right, I do weigh past performance heavily as an indicator of future value. And again, you\'re right in that Mitchell could step up, so could Allen, Ruff, Hodge, and even Hand.

I won\'t quibble over the little things (like Hand\'s 01 season which was not good), or the fact that you IDed two players as the next big star on our defense... b/c I know what you\'re getting at. I\'m able to see your point at large rather than only the little things. ;)

Again, the basic difference here is that you are optimistic and I am not. I applaud you for your hope. I just don\'t have it. After two collapses, a defense that has gotten progressively worse on the field over the last two years, and in terms of talent 9we lost a lot of it), and a terrible D-coordinator, I just don\'t see them getting much better (again my qualifier remains \'unless they add some proven quality players to the D\').

I hope that Mitchell pans out... and Ruff, and Allen, and Carter, and Hodge\'s play improves, And Jackson and Hand lose the weight and play up to potential, and Thomas stays healthy, and Grant continues to get better, and our rookies can make an impact.... that\'s just a lot of ifs and it seems nearly impossible of all of them coming true.

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give me 22 hokies and i\'ll show em all..............what was that movie called? smitty