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-   -   Aaron Brooks 2 touchdowns away from breacking archies record (https://blackandgold.com/saints/10613-aaron-brooks-2-touchdowns-away-breacking-archies-record.html)

blackwidows 11-09-2005 07:22 PM

Aaron Brooks 2 touchdowns away from breacking archies record
 
Aaron Brooks only needs 2 touchdowns to break Archie Manning's record for most touchdowns passing as a Saints qb. The next game he throws for 300 yards he will tie Archie manning's record for most games with 300 yards passing in them in a career with (9).

saintswhodi 11-09-2005 07:52 PM

Sad, sad day when this happens. Sorry Archie, wish it coulda been a better player, or you would have had some more players arounf you.

xan 11-10-2005 02:52 AM

Pretty awful considering that Archie did it with Bozo the Clown and Mr. Greenjeans as wideouts and Brooks has half the Olympic relay team. Plus, with the bias towards passing in the rules today, even more of a shame that it's taken AB this long to get this close. But then, he's had to deal with a defense that can't handle his turnovers in the red zone.

If you thought that the current O-line has issues, you should look at some old film and marvel that Archie is alive. The O-lines that AB's had are Iron Curtains by comparison.

4saintspirit 11-10-2005 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xan
Pretty awful considering that Archie did it with Bozo the Clown and Mr. Greenjeans as wideouts and Brooks has half the Olympic relay team. Plus, with the bias towards passing in the rules today, even more of a shame that it's taken AB this long to get this close. But then, he's had to deal with a defense that can't handle his turnovers in the red zone.

If you thought that the current O-line has issues, you should look at some old film and marvel that Archie is alive. The O-lines that AB's had are Iron Curtains by comparison.

Well - first I think Archie is the man. But I do have to correct you on his wideouts. Matter of fact Archie for several years had Wes Chandler, Henry Childs, and Chuck Muncie all of whom made the pro bowl with Archie when he was offensive MVP.
\
That said -- AB may have the stats but will never be near the QB that Archie was.

FireVenturi 11-10-2005 04:53 PM

just imagine if archie had this kind of talent around him...horn=H.O.F , Stallworth-Pro Bowler,etc,etc.

blackwidows 11-10-2005 07:42 PM

Technically Brooks is a better qb than Archie Brooks qb rating thus far is 79.9 Archie Manning's at the time of retirement was 67.3. Don't worry I will write my criticism's of Brooks tomarrow. One other thing though Brooks also has a better passer rating than Micheal Vick at this time. Of course Micheal Vick has only had 1 300 yard passing game in December of 2002 against Dallas. Micheal Vick also has never had a wide receiver cast and has never thrown for 3,000 yards or thrown for 20 td's. Once he turns 34 he will be nothing not even thought of. Micheal Vicks QB rating is 76.0

saintswhodi 11-11-2005 08:29 AM

Quote:

Technically Brooks is a better qb than Archie Brooks qb rating thus far is 79.9 Archie Manning's at the time of retirement was 67.3.
Technically, Archie played for a CFL team that was in the NFL and still was league MVP one year. How many of those Brooks got, or will get?

Technically, when Archie played, there wasn't half the QB protection rules and passing rules that allow offenses to be wide open as they are today. QBs would get hit late, early, and often. Defenders would mug WRs, and LBs would lay them out if they dared cross the middle of the field. Now you can't breathe on a QB, and if you look at a receiver wrong, youget a flag.

Technically, if Archie played in today's NFL, he would be Brett Favre.

CruiserK 11-12-2005 05:00 PM

Please stop making excuses. I saw them both play. While Aaron is having a bad year he is certainly deserving of all accomplishments he has reached. I am sick of the Brooks Bashers not giving him his due. He has struggled but in all he is clearly the best QB the Saints have had and now he has the Stats to prove it. Not a Archie Basher or a Brooks lover just the plain
Truth. I think for some the truth hurts and they would never give him his due.



Cruiser K :D

saintswhodi 11-12-2005 05:47 PM

Must've been just "a bad year" last year too. You obviously haven't seen Archie play much if you think Brooks is in his class. The passing rules are 100% different from when Archie played, as well as the penalties. That's the truth. Who cares about Brooks' stats? Have they gotten him a league MVP? No? Archie is about 100x better than AB, mentally, heart, leadership, anything you want in a QB that AB doesn't have but "garbage time" stats.

Tobias-Reiper 11-12-2005 06:26 PM

...hmmm... first time poster... first post is "Brooks better than Archie... hmmm..

Welcome back, Billy!!!!


... it is an exercise in futility... stats are all that Brooks has... good for him..

... one thing is for certain, in 25 years from now, no one is going to remember who Aaron Brooks was, and his name wil most certainly NOT be preceded by "New Orleans Saints Legend", as Archie is referred to not only by Saints homers, but national broadcasters as well...

Euphoria 11-12-2005 08:03 PM

Yeah but Archie has two famous sons though... that isn't fair.

CruiserK 11-12-2005 08:05 PM

I saw Archie play plenty and I have been following the Saints for a long time. Aaron Brooks Garbage stats as you call them prove he is a better QB than Archie was, I love Archie as much as the next Saint but it is the plain truth. Who is Billy? Anyway guys lets agree to disagree you will not win this one, and I refuse to continue to make a point in the face of blind Brooks Bashers. You ask where was his better year last year? I reply where was Archie's better year any year?

Henry Childs, Wes Chandler, Chuck Muncie, Tony Galbreath, to name a few this was not a CFL cast back in the day this was top notch talent. Again agree to disagree.

And the truth hurts. (You don't know me, and I don't know you so you can't tell me what I saw in all my years as a Saint fan and I can't tell you what you saw and you can't discredit me by calling me Billy. Archie was talented but never lived up to his talent, remind you of any one Aaron Brooks, except Brooks still has a chance.


Cruiser K

saintswhodi 11-12-2005 09:14 PM

Nice rambling. Deuce is the best RB we have ever had, Joe Horn the best receiver, all due respect to Eric Martin. The offensive line we have had for the past 5 years, is the best we have ever had, with players like Roaf, Turley, Bentley, Gandy, a couple of years ago, Jamaal Brown, all due respect to Dombrowski and others. If you have watched football as long as you say you have, you would know the passing rules and QB protection rules are FAR different than what they were when Archie played. If all you are gonna talk about is Broooks' stats, and not his lack of heart, leadership, and mental capacity to play QB, there's no point listening to you any further.

Saint_LB 11-13-2005 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CruiserK
Anyway guys lets agree to disagree

Why don't we agree that until AB is the NFC MVP and has taken a snap in the pro-bowl that he can't even be mentioned in the same breath as Archie?

Euphoria 11-13-2005 10:47 AM

Well I say in my book... Brooks is one of the BEST QB's this organization has ever had... you can deny it all you want to but stats... wins... he has earned that. Doesn't matter what archie had or had not, doesn't matter style of play... Brooks is ONE OF THE BEST QB's THIS ORGANIZATION has ever had.

Manning may end up being the NFL's all-time greatest qb's the league has ever had... doesn't matter what other era's had or how the game was played... he is.

CheramieIII 11-13-2005 11:38 AM

But lets all agree that if Archie had the same team around him that AB has today, that we would not even be having this discussion.

CruiserK 11-13-2005 01:54 PM

Why don't we agree until Archie Manning wins a playoff game for the Saints that he doesn't deserve to mentioned in the same breath as Aaron. Oh excuse me that is unfair because Archie isn't playing any more. But equally unfair is the blind Brooks bashing.

As for his leadership abilities he led us to our one and only playoff win with his star RB and star receiver injured and unable to play, as for his heart I have seen him run for first downs against arguably one of the best defenses in the NFL Tampa Bay on numerous occassions, shake Urlacher out of his jock, and lead this team to come from behind victories on numerous occassions, And stop writing Aaron's obituary he has plenty of football left in him, Aaron surpasses Archie and there is still time for him to catch others he may not be the greatest but he is the best that we have had.

We are talking about Archie and Aaron, not his sons, Peyton is great but Archie was never a Peyton, and he never would have been one regardless of where he played. I am sick and tired of the Archie apologist. Do you guys not think that in 1976-1979 almost 30 years ago I was as equally disgusted with the Archie Apologist as you guys are of the Brooks supporters.

How can you dismiss stats, Stats are a mathematical method the league uses to measure a players and a teams sucess or failures and averages over the course of a game, season, career, etc. It is one of the methods that we have to compare a players accomplishments and for the record it is an important factor in determining if a player will make Canton. While Archie and Aaron both might not make Canton, as of now Brooks has bested Archie in almost every positive stat that one uses to measure a QB's sucess. And get this Aaron still has more football left in him. He will do more. The playoff win shoot holes in your theory because Aaron did more with less, and the Saints won against a prolific and offesensive terror that was the Rams. He did this with Willie Jackson, and other (Wilson) receivers, TE and RB's
who are no longer in the league and if they are they are they are deeply rooted on the bench or also rans.

So go ahead and dismiss all you want, but remember some of us were just as disappointed with Archie a little more than a quarter of a century ago as you are with Aaron now, and Aaron has the numbers to prove it, and plenty of football in him to do more.

lynwood 11-13-2005 03:24 PM

To be honest we won that playoff game becuse Hakim dropped the ball. If you can remember the rams were killing us on the comeback.

Stats are good if they are taken in context. Garbage stats are just that, Garbage. Playing catch up in the forth quarter doesn't equate into a great QB. AB will not make canton becuse even though he has alot of "good" stats he has too many bad stats. Everyone kows archie's problem was his o-line. AB's problem is himself.

Too bad they don't have a stat for playing like a moron.

CruiserK 11-13-2005 04:44 PM

His achievements are right there in black and white. The stats are not garbage they are stats, are Archie's stats garbage? No they are just stats. Aaron had to lead the team in order for the Rams to attempt a comeback and for Hakim to drop the ball they were attempting to comeback from a deficit that the Saints led by Aaron Brooks placed them in. You guys are impossible. Like I said to each his own. 4th quarter comebacks are enough for anyone a Win is a Win the last time I checked. As for Canton I never said that Brooks would make it. I implied that both he and Archie would never make it. Have fun tearing down the best QB to wear the Black and Gold and when he is gone then what? Some of you just live to bash Brooks, I hope you are equally as critical of his replacement when and or if they don't get it done to your liking. These post hold you all accountable.

Cruiser K

Euphoria 11-13-2005 04:56 PM

The last time I checked the records it shows the Saints won that play off came doesn't say they won 'because of' If the Rams played a good game then that one play shouldn't have mattered... I guess we technically won that game because a Saint recovered the fumble that that he dropped it.

lynwood 11-13-2005 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CruiserK
His achievements are right there in black and white. The stats are not garbage they are stats, are Archie's stats garbage? No they are just stats. Aaron had to lead the team in order for the Rams to attempt a comeback and for Hakim to drop the ball they were attempting to comeback from a deficit that the Saints led by Aaron Brooks placed them in. You guys are impossible. Like I said to each his own. 4th quarter comebacks are enough for anyone a Win is a Win the last time I checked. As for Canton I never said that Brooks would make it. I implied that both he and Archie would never make it. Have fun tearing down the best QB to wear the Black and Gold and when he is gone then what? Some of you just live to bash Brooks, I hope you are equally as critical of his replacement when and or if they don't get it done to your liking. These post hold you all accountable.

Cruiser K

That seems to be the main concern of Brooks defenders here on this board. Will the people that " bash" brooks do the same with his replacement. I can say that as far as i'm concerned that would be a yes. It doesn't matter who is our qb is, if he plays poorly and costs us games(which by the way you guys seem to forget about Brooks) then i'll be equally critical.

Whoopie one playoff game. Lets make him the greatest qb to ever play the game. Whoopie he threw for over 3000yards !! How about he fumbled more times in the redzone and gave the oppsing defenses great field posistions on other fumbles and interceptions. Say what you want by looking at stats. I look at the game and he sucks. Bottom line. Most people on this forum agree that he needs to be replaced immediatly. And honestly who really cares about comparing brooks to archie. Two different qb's in two different football time periods. AND yes those stats are garbage stats. When you put your team so far behind by making rookie mistakes and not producing that all you can do is pass the ball to tey and catch up....yes garbage stats. He'll have some records in the books but noone will care. People are more upset about brooks breaking records than not. Why is that I wonder. Keep playing your fantasy football for stats. I'll watch the real game for wins and loses.

lynwood 11-13-2005 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphoria
The last time I checked the records it shows the Saints won that play off came doesn't say they won 'because of' If the Rams played a good game then that one play shouldn't have mattered... I guess we technically won that game because a Saint recovered the fumble that that he dropped it.

Euph, I'll agree with you on this. A win is a win. But to focus on brooks being a great saints qb because he was in the right place at the right time well i don't agree with. He was the qb during our first playoff win. OK. He holds some records in the saints books. OK. Greates saints qb ever? NO FRIGGIN WAY. My only hope is that he does go to another team and we get a another view of him for comparison. and honestly i wish he would have been benched so that he felt his starting job was in jeapordy and maybe play a litttle more more like a pro and not a rookie.

CruiserK 11-13-2005 05:36 PM

Aaron Brooks stats place him clearly in position as the best QB to where the Black and Gold. Where is the fantasy in that, that is not fantasy that is reality! As for his NFL Blooper highlights all QB's make them. Look it up in the garbage stats as you call them and you will see Archie is equally as high in turnovers, interceptions and fumbles. I have NFL Direct TV and I make it my business to watch all the games, I am not just looking at stats in newspapers. But the stats do serve their purpose. As far as comparing Brooks to Archie, you must have forgotten the title of this subject "Aaron Brooks 2 TD's away from breaking Archies record. It would appear I am more on subject than you. True neither are great QB's, True nothing comes from these comparisions, Just done to enlighten some who I am now convinced are already enlightened but in denial. I am glad that you just want the Saints to field a winner and so do I, maybe Brooks time is up and I am O.K. with that but if it is I am not going to deny him his accomplishments as so many of you are attempting to do. I don't recall any one on this site denying Archie his. I am not denying Archie his accomplishments I am clearly enlightining
those that whish to deny that Aaron is worthy of this accomplishment that the Subject title reads. He earned this .

Cruiser K

CheramieIII 11-13-2005 05:50 PM

Hey Cruiser, since you brought up the stats comparison in your argument, why don't you go get some that show AB is better than Archie?. Then comeback or maybe you won't comeback because the stats you mention don't exist. It's just like Mark Rypien (he just happen to be there) winning the superbowl, never heard of him before or after and it should have been the same way with Brooks. The Running back too, but I have heard of him since, in a cocaine deal gone bad in Denver, almost 20 years later.

CruiserK 11-13-2005 06:00 PM

The stats you are asking for that show Brooks is better than Archie are right there in Black and Gold and the subject of this title, Brooks leads Archie in every positive statistical stat for QB's in New Orleans except total yardage and TD passes. And as you well know TD passes will very soon in a matter of weeks belong to Brooks as well. Don't believe me look it up. It is right there on NFL.com stats and the New Orleans Saints Official Website under History and Records.

I don't have to go get them if you have been a NFL and Saints fan you already know this.
I qouted you the source now you go get them.

Cruiser K

CHACHING 11-13-2005 06:17 PM

Did Archie ever throw a pass backwards to a lineman???
Did Archie come in second on the "most fumble" list?
Did archie blow a season(2002) when we only had to win 1 outta 3 games(to losing teams) to make the playoffs?
Brooks blows....stats or not....I'll take a win over a stat all day......JMFO! :x

lynwood 11-13-2005 06:26 PM

His stats placing him to be the best QB in black and gold is an opinion. Can't deny his stats but the best...no way. I'd rather have a QB that usues his head and can lead a team and not win than a QB that has tons of stats but makes mistakes that kills his team over and over. Stats don't make a leader, stats don't make a winner. When you make a game one dimensional then those stats will be great. Where has AB been since his one playoff win? Making the same mistakes, killing drives but adding to his passing yards. once again whoopie.

CheramieIII 11-13-2005 06:39 PM

Hey Cruiser, here are some stats for you. I got these from the official site:

Most Fumbles (career): Archie 62 - AB 55 I did not count this year either which would put AB half the number of years as Archie.

Most Fumbles (game): 4 AB, sorry Archie wasn't listed.

Most Fumbles (season): 15 AB, sorry Archie wasn't listed.

Completion % (career): 56.5 AB - 55.4 Archie. You got me there.

Consecutive Passes completed: Archie 15

Times Sacked (career): 337 Archie - 176 AB. AB's don't include this season and once again he is only half way to Archie's career.

Times Sacked (season): 50 AB - 49 Archie. No damn intelligence.

Scoring Game: Archie 18 points. 3 rushing TD's in one game. Brook's is to scared to even try.

Highest Rushing Average in Saints history: Archie 5.7 yards per carry. Now that's a QB that can run.

Tell me your stats again, besides one or two and I gave you one of them in the post, there are not too many.

Waiting for an accurate, thought out reply, not just go find the information for yourself reply.

lynwood 11-13-2005 06:57 PM

Wow and in Half the time of Archie's career. should put the stat up of how much archie was paid vs. Brooks and see who earned their money. Go ahead and adjust for inflation and lets see who is overpaid.

xan 11-13-2005 07:55 PM

It should be noted, just to make things apples to apples (which I'm sure that CruiserK would happily concede or forever be banished to the level of ranting idiot), that the stats that Cher listed above for Archie are over his entire 11 year career and AB's are for (so far) less than half that. AB's rate of mistakes is higher. In addition, Archie Manning played in an era where contact downfield went beyond 5 yards of the line of scrimmage, not like AB where the recievers are swathed in cotton and have UN diplomatic immunity.

It should also be noted that the Saints were going to make the playoffs with one more win after Blake went down. AB went 3-3 as a starter that year, which doesn't put him in the elite column either, beating cellar dwellars Atlanta, SF and losing to Denver and St. Louis. Credit more to the entire team at that point, including and more importantly Ricky Williams, for that win. AB was also playing against one of the most porous defenses in the league in that game, and still, could not mount a drive in the 4th quarter when a first down was essential.

By the way, AB has never sniffed the Pro Bowl, All Pro or other season awards, while Archie Manning went twice and was NFC MVP. Manning has also been lauded as NFL Man of the Year for his community activities while a Saint. AB's MIA in that regard, too.

CheramieIII 11-13-2005 07:58 PM

Thanks Woody and X, I think it's going to take a while to get a reply.

blackwidows 11-13-2005 08:12 PM

The only stat that matters is this Aaron Brooks the only qb to lead the Saints to A playoff victory. Owe how soon do we forget. Yes Milne secured it Willie Jackson in Joe Horns absence scores 4 TD'S. A record for the franchise in the post season. Bye the way did Archie manning win a playoff game? The Answer is No. To be honest i'm to young to have watched manning play. When he was playing i had my mind on other things. I didn't start watching football till 89 I was born in 78. I know this though you did not see a 3,000 yard passesr to much in these times Manning played. They ran more back in that day so Manning went to the probowl on stats that would not get you in in on to days scale. What surprises me is how did vick get in.
Heres a guy that has only threw for 300 yards in a game once. never threw for 20 touchdowns in a career ever.

APSaintsfan 11-13-2005 08:31 PM

Remember Archie played in seasons with only 14 games per season. Yes, I do credit Brooks for winning our only playoff win but Blake was 7-4 and winning the last game he played against Oakland and then Brooks came in and finished up. SO, actually Brooks was actually 2-3 for the last 5 games of that season. So, Why did we get Brooks to start the 2001 season when Blake was well and could have played??? Begs an answer on this one. Were we stupid or not?? Think about it?? We were going to be 8-4 anyway so if Blake would have been in for the whole season he could have possibly made us 11-5 instead of 10-6.

CheramieIII 11-13-2005 08:38 PM

AB just happened to be their when it happened and it happened in spite of him, not because of him. Also, add this to the stats I gave you from the official site. AB already has 12 int's this year so you do the math. He will most certainly break Archies record for Ints to, if he were to stay around that long, which will never happen. By the way does anyone care that AB's passer rating this year is 66.6, yes I said it, 66.6. AB also has the most Int in a season.

You know he was the only QB with a win in the playoffs but he is also the only one with a loss.

I also found on the official site that Archie threw for 3716 yards in 1980 and 3169 in 79 and these were the only 2 years I checked.

You guys need to get your facts straight before your bring that shiiiiiiitttttteeee to this board. Cuz someone's gonna check it twice and gonna find out you been naughty.

Tobias-Reiper 11-13-2005 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackwidows
The only stat that matters is this Aaron Brooks the only qb to lead the Saints to A playoff victory. Owe how soon do we forget. Yes Milne secured it Willie Jackson in Joe Horns absence scores 4 TD'S. A record for the franchise in the post season. Bye the way did Archie manning win a playoff game? The Answer is No. To be honest i'm to young to have watched manning play. When he was playing i had my mind on other things. I didn't start watching football till 89 I was born in 78. I know this though you did not see a 3,000 yard passesr to much in these times Manning played. They ran more back in that day so Manning went to the probowl on stats that would not get you in in on to days scale. What surprises me is how did vick get in.
Heres a guy that has only threw for 300 yards in a game once. never threw for 20 touchdowns in a career ever.

There's a reason why you didn't see too many 3000 yd passers back then, and it wasn't because they ran the ball more; as mentioned before, there have been many a rule change to open up the game and give offenses the advantage and protect offense players. Just to mention a few:

... no 5 yd rule.
... no get out of the pocket and fling it past the LOS.
... no QB sliding rule.
... no roughing the QB.
... no defensive holding.
... no personal fouls for helmet to helmet.
... no personal fouls for hits to the head.

... also, in those days, there was no free agency.. it was much harder to build a team in those days... it took years... nowadays you see teams going from 3-13 one season to 13-3 the next...

CheramieIII 11-13-2005 08:50 PM

Thanks Tobias, some people's children.

CheramieIII 11-13-2005 08:54 PM

Archie also holds the record for most 250 yard games in a season, at 8. Where did you guys go. I dropped it down from 300 yards a game and AB still can't beat Archie,

You guys need to take the nipple off your bottles and drink the similac straight from it.

CruiserK 11-13-2005 08:59 PM

It is funny that in listing the stats that you guys left off most 250+ yard games in a season career, most TD passes in a season career, and game, Highest QB rating in a season career and game, most interceptions in a season, career and game, if you are going to list the stats list them all and you will see Brooks is statitiscally better.

Cruiser K

CheramieIII 11-13-2005 09:07 PM

Bring those stats here, don't make us go look, it you spout it you need to back it up or it ain't so and read my thread before your last attempt at a post. I addressed the most 250 yard games in a season and most interceptions was Brooks with 22 in 2001. I also addressed the career int's. I am bringing the stats to you and you aren't even reading them. It is very obvious you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

saintswhodi 11-13-2005 09:11 PM

Quote:

It is very obvious you don't know what the hell you are talking about
I had that firgured out on page one of this thread. This is obviously someone just looking to get under people's skin. You made your points cherm xan, lynn, tobias, etc etc. Let it ride.


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