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-   -   i am not sure we need to draft only d this draft. (http://blackandgold.com/saints/10704-i-am-not-sure-we-need-draft-only-d-draft.html)

spkb25 11-26-2005 12:25 PM

i am not sure we need to draft only d this draft.
 
meaning our o is in just as bad shape. we stink head to toe. the worst thing to know is that losing deuce hasn't hurt us. our d is bad but so is our o. our team is just bad. our coach sucks too. clean house. starts with haz getting fired and then just trade guys for picks. then lets go and get some young guys and just start over. well thats my thought anyway.

Tobias-Reiper 11-26-2005 12:43 PM

.. I beg to differ... :) .. please see my analysis here http://www.blackandgold.net/site/ind...=11290&start=0

The D has actually been decent this year... it is the offense who's really stinking it up... special teams have been bad, too...

saintswhodi 11-26-2005 06:57 PM

Just in case anyone's interested, LSU is averaing 30 points a game offensively. Just thought i'd put that out there.

lynwood 11-26-2005 07:08 PM

Whooooa Whodi. Don't cloud us with the facts. Don't say that the LSU offense can average 30 points and still lead the SEC in turnovers. How can the Saints offense compare with that. You trying to blow BoB's argument outta the water? Show some mercy man!

TheDeuce 11-27-2005 02:16 AM

Quote:

A defense that allows the starting RB, backup RB and 3rd string RB to come into the game and each get 100 yards every game, tell me what knucklehead can say the DEFENSE IS FINE??
I agree with BonB here. Even though our defense is statistically better than last year, they haven't been able to make the plays that we need to win.

1. They couldn't hold Atlanta out of field goal range. They had less than a minute, that's it, and our pathetic defense didn't bother to cover Alge Crumpler a couple of times who was just wandering around our secondary without anyone noticing him.
2. Gave up huge yards to almost every running back they have played this year. Opposing teams don't even have to pass to beat us anymore because they can hand it off to whoever happens to be in the backfield (even if it's a hot dog vendor), and they are guaranteed to get over 100 yards/game. Just look at the Miami game, Ricky and Ronnie both had monster games. That's just ridiculous. Gus Frerotte was their quarterback so it's not like we should have been terrified of their passing game; we concentrated on their running game and still couldn't stop them.
3. Games like Minnesota and Green Bay show that this defense still sucks really really hard. The Packers were missing Javon Walker, Bubba Franks, Ahman Green, and three of their best linemen, and their offense still kicked the crap out of us. Just ridiculous. Anybody who says our defense is fine and doesn't require draft help is insane or dumb; or probably both.
4. People point to the Buffalo game as a great defensive game. OOOOOOhhhhhh, yeah we really shut down a high powered attack. Buffalo's offense is 29th in the league in yards/game. Chicago is 28th, Minnesota is 25th, Carolina is 24th, Miami is 22nd, and Green Bay is 19th. That's six out of our ten games this season in the bottom half of offensive production; so it's not like we are shutting down powerful offenses here.

I agree with your original point spk that our whole team sucks hard core. The offense seems lethargic and confused most of the time. The defense may have improved statistically, but still isn't getting the job done and gives up big plays and commits dumb penalties at the most inopportune times. The special teams has just been horrid, which is sad because they are usually a strong point on this team. I don't really know where to start on improving this team. Actually, the best start would be to fire Haslett, the coaching staff, and most of the FO. But speaking about players, I think it is absolutely dumb and ignorant to think that the defense is without blame this season and without need of help. They suck really bad, don't be fooled by the statistical improvement. The defense needs help, the offense needs help, the special teams need help.

Trade our first pick for two lower picks: take Omar Jacobs or another quarterback and then take a stud linebacker. But it's way too far away to be talking about draft picks.

TheDeuce 11-27-2005 02:35 AM

I actually need to clear up my point about the defense's statistical improvement, and why it's so misleading.

First, anybody who knows football understands that every team needs to run the ball to be effective. If you can run the ball effectively, then you are going to have a very good chance at winning. Also, if you are running the ball effectively, you won't need to pass the ball because it is riskier and is usually less effective than grinding it out on the ground.

OK, so taking that into account, let's look at our defensive statistics:

New Orleans is 11th in total offensive yards allowed per game (309/game). They are third in the league in passing yards allowed per game (138.6/game). Many people see this and think "wow, our defense isn't really that bad." Wrong, wrong, wrong. Look at the stats a little harder. Why do you think that our pass defense is so good? Take a look at the rushing yards allowed per game this season: 138.6 per game. Yeah, wow, that's good enough for fourth worst in the NFL. Awesome job guys. Why do you think people aren't passing the ball against us? BECAUSE THEY CAN RUN IT ALL OVER US ALL FRIGGIN DAY!!!!!!!! And what about points allowed per game? Try 26.6 per game, which is good enough for fifth worst in the NFL. We might not be giving up a lot of total yards, but our defense can't make goal line stands or stop opposing offenses from getting it in the end zone.

The good defenses always find a way to keep points of the board. They adopt bend-but-don't-break attitudes and become very good at it. Our team might not give up a lot of yards, but when it really matters, when a team is marching down the field and we need a big stop, our defense won't do it. I can't remember a goal line stand once this year.

O and you want to hear another impressive stat? How about our turnover production. How many do we have? Try 14. That's fifth worst in the NFC. And when your offense is turning the ball over too, a good defense will step up and make plays and get the ball back. Not this defense though, they are dead last in the NFL in takeaway/giveaway difference. Sure it's not the defense's fault that our offense gives the football away like it's a hot potato, but they aren't very successful at getting some of those turnovers back.

So, in conclusion, what happens when you mix a team's inability to stop the run, inability to keep team's out of the end zone, and a lack of turnover production? You get the 2005 Saints defense. Sure they might look good on paper when you see their yards allowed/game, but look just below the surface and you'll see a unit in realy trouble. Instead of the bend-but-don't-break attitude, they have adopted the bend-and-break-like-Tyrone-Prothro's-ankle strategy.

Tobias-Reiper 11-27-2005 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDeuce
I actually need to clear up my point about the defense's statistical improvement, and why it's so misleading.

First, anybody who knows football understands that every team needs to run the ball to be effective. If you can run the ball effectively, then you are going to have a very good chance at winning. Also, if you are running the ball effectively, you won't need to pass the ball because it is riskier and is usually less effective than grinding it out on the ground.

OK, so taking that into account, let's look at our defensive statistics:

New Orleans is 11th in total offensive yards allowed per game (309/game). They are third in the league in passing yards allowed per game (138.6/game). Many people see this and think "wow, our defense isn't really that bad." Wrong, wrong, wrong. Look at the stats a little harder. Why do you think that our pass defense is so good? Take a look at the rushing yards allowed per game this season: 138.6 per game. Yeah, wow, that's good enough for fourth worst in the NFL. Awesome job guys. Why do you think people aren't passing the ball against us? BECAUSE THEY CAN RUN IT ALL OVER US ALL FRIGGIN DAY!!!!!!!! And what about points allowed per game? Try 26.6 per game, which is good enough for fifth worst in the NFL. We might not be giving up a lot of total yards, but our defense can't make goal line stands or stop opposing offenses from getting it in the end zone.

The good defenses always find a way to keep points of the board. They adopt bend-but-don't-break attitudes and become very good at it. Our team might not give up a lot of yards, but when it really matters, when a team is marching down the field and we need a big stop, our defense won't do it. I can't remember a goal line stand once this year.

O and you want to hear another impressive stat? How about our turnover production. How many do we have? Try 14. That's fifth worst in the NFC. And when your offense is turning the ball over too, a good defense will step up and make plays and get the ball back. Not this defense though, they are dead last in the NFL in takeaway/giveaway difference. Sure it's not the defense's fault that our offense gives the football away like it's a hot potato, but they aren't very successful at getting some of those turnovers back.

So, in conclusion, what happens when you mix a team's inability to stop the run, inability to keep team's out of the end zone, and a lack of turnover production? You get the 2005 Saints defense. Sure they might look good on paper when you see their yards allowed/game, but look just below the surface and you'll see a unit in realy trouble. Instead of the bend-but-don't-break attitude, they have adopted the bend-and-break-like-Tyrone-Prothro's-ankle strategy.

Deuce,

you are just throwing a whole lot of averages out there...

OK, if you like averages, check this out:
Average points per game scored by the 2005 Saints offense: 16
Average points allowed by the 2000 Ravens defense: 16.5

See?? EVEN IF THE SAINTS DEFENSE WERE THE EQUIVALENT OF THE 2005 RAVENS, STATISTICALLY THEY"D STILL LOSE!!!


... if you go and read the post I made about the defense playing well, you'd see an explanation of actual events on the football field, not just averages.

I'm not going to repeat all of that post here, but, in answering this post of yours, I'll point of that:

The defense is NOT allowing 26.6 points per game. You cannot count points scored by opposing defenses or opposing special teams against the defense.

You say that the 14 take-aways the defense has created are bad.. ok..but how about the offense turning the ball twice as much? The Saints offense has 28 turnovers, which is the worst in the NFL. Not the NFC, the NFL.

Now, let's stay with turnovers for a while...

you say that a good defense finds a way to keep points off the board when the offense turns the ball over.. and that is true to a point.
How many football games have you seen where a team turns the ball over 4, 5, 6 times and they go out and win the game? I'm sure that you'll find a couple here and there, but unless you got the 1985 Bears or the 2000 Ravens defense, your offense turns the ball over 3 times in a game, chances are you lose that game... ESPECIALLY if you turn the ball over in your side of the field.

Now, how about points off turnovers by the Saints offense? How many points off those 14 turnovers has the Saints offense turn into points? Just in the Chicago game, the defense created 3 turnovers, yet the offense could not score a single point off any of them. NOt even a measly field goal.

Now, I don't know if you count field goals as points scored by the offense, but even if you do, here's the average of points scored by the Saints offense: 15.9. OK, let's call it 16. And that is by just adding the totals from all games and dividing them by the number of games played.

One more thing: let me ask you: what happens when you fail to convert on 3rd down?
3 possible outcomes: you go for it on 4th, you attempt a field goal, or you punt. Do you think you aer going to win many games if you don't convert ZERO 3rd downs? How about 2? Or 3??

saintswhodi 11-27-2005 01:59 PM

Quote:

And what about points allowed per game? Try 26.6 per game, which is good enough for fifth worst in the NFL. We might not be giving up a lot of total yards, but our defense can't make goal line stands or stop opposing offenses from getting it in the end zone.
Um, more than half the points given up by the team have come off turnovers by the pffense and special teams. I will bet $100 you didn't even consider that when posting this. Other than that, continue ranting.

saintswhodi 11-27-2005 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackonBlack
Quote:


Um, more than half the points given up by the team have come off turnovers by the pffense and special teams. I will bet $100 you didn't even consider that when posting this. Other than that, continue ranting.

Nope, most points come off a porous defense, also the time of possession by the opposing offense goes up greatly in the 2nd half of games against us? And look at the fact we're the worst are at least bottom 3 in run defense for the answer.

Um, nope, you are wrong yet again. But do keep trying. It's amusing.

Quote:

Take away the North texas's, and Applachian States whom they padded the numbers against.
Um, only 24 points against App State. They did put the screws to North Texas though. Over 30 against Az State, 27 against Tenn, 37 against Ms. State, 34 against Vandy, 40 against Ole Miss. I guess it's nice to have an offense that scores to go with a defense.

saintswhodi 11-27-2005 04:58 PM

Most of those games are against SEC opponents. That's not "games you get to schedule." Jesus, do you know anything about ANY topic you discuss? But let's look at your thoughts. We played the 0-3 Vikings, and the 0-4 Packers and managed 19 points combined. We played the under .500 Dolphins, and scored 6 points. 17 against the sucky rams, after scoring 14 in the first quarter. How much worse do we need the opponents to be to score? Never mind. You have no idea.


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