i am not sure we need to draft only d this draft.
 

meaning our o is in just as bad shape. we stink head to toe. the worst thing to know is that losing deuce hasn't hurt us. our d is bad but so is our o. our team is just bad. our coach sucks too. clean house. starts with haz getting fired and then just trade guys for picks. then lets go and get some young guys and just start over. well thats my thought anyway.

.. I beg to differ... :) .. please see my analysis here http://www.blackandgold.net/site/ind...=11290&start=0

The D has actually been decent this year... it is the offense who's really stinking it up... special teams have been bad, too...

Just in case anyone's interested, LSU is averaing 30 points a game offensively. Just thought i'd put that out there.

Whooooa Whodi. Don't cloud us with the facts. Don't say that the LSU offense can average 30 points and still lead the SEC in turnovers. How can the Saints offense compare with that. You trying to blow BoB's argument outta the water? Show some mercy man!

I agree with BonB here. Even though our defense is statistically better than last year, they haven't been able to make the plays that we need to win.

1. They couldn't hold Atlanta out of field goal range. They had less than a minute, that's it, and our pathetic defense didn't bother to cover Alge Crumpler a couple of times who was just wandering around our secondary without anyone noticing him.
2. Gave up huge yards to almost every running back they have played this year. Opposing teams don't even have to pass to beat us anymore because they can hand it off to whoever happens to be in the backfield (even if it's a hot dog vendor), and they are guaranteed to get over 100 yards/game. Just look at the Miami game, Ricky and Ronnie both had monster games. That's just ridiculous. Gus Frerotte was their quarterback so it's not like we should have been terrified of their passing game; we concentrated on their running game and still couldn't stop them.
3. Games like Minnesota and Green Bay show that this defense still sucks really really hard. The Packers were missing Javon Walker, Bubba Franks, Ahman Green, and three of their best linemen, and their offense still kicked the crap out of us. Just ridiculous. Anybody who says our defense is fine and doesn't require draft help is insane or dumb; or probably both.
4. People point to the Buffalo game as a great defensive game. OOOOOOhhhhhh, yeah we really shut down a high powered attack. Buffalo's offense is 29th in the league in yards/game. Chicago is 28th, Minnesota is 25th, Carolina is 24th, Miami is 22nd, and Green Bay is 19th. That's six out of our ten games this season in the bottom half of offensive production; so it's not like we are shutting down powerful offenses here.

I agree with your original point spk that our whole team sucks hard core. The offense seems lethargic and confused most of the time. The defense may have improved statistically, but still isn't getting the job done and gives up big plays and commits dumb penalties at the most inopportune times. The special teams has just been horrid, which is sad because they are usually a strong point on this team. I don't really know where to start on improving this team. Actually, the best start would be to fire Haslett, the coaching staff, and most of the FO. But speaking about players, I think it is absolutely dumb and ignorant to think that the defense is without blame this season and without need of help. They suck really bad, don't be fooled by the statistical improvement. The defense needs help, the offense needs help, the special teams need help.

Trade our first pick for two lower picks: take Omar Jacobs or another quarterback and then take a stud linebacker. But it's way too far away to be talking about draft picks.

I actually need to clear up my point about the defense's statistical improvement, and why it's so misleading.

First, anybody who knows football understands that every team needs to run the ball to be effective. If you can run the ball effectively, then you are going to have a very good chance at winning. Also, if you are running the ball effectively, you won't need to pass the ball because it is riskier and is usually less effective than grinding it out on the ground.

OK, so taking that into account, let's look at our defensive statistics:

New Orleans is 11th in total offensive yards allowed per game (309/game). They are third in the league in passing yards allowed per game (138.6/game). Many people see this and think "wow, our defense isn't really that bad." Wrong, wrong, wrong. Look at the stats a little harder. Why do you think that our pass defense is so good? Take a look at the rushing yards allowed per game this season: 138.6 per game. Yeah, wow, that's good enough for fourth worst in the NFL. Awesome job guys. Why do you think people aren't passing the ball against us? BECAUSE THEY CAN RUN IT ALL OVER US ALL FRIGGIN DAY!!!!!!!! And what about points allowed per game? Try 26.6 per game, which is good enough for fifth worst in the NFL. We might not be giving up a lot of total yards, but our defense can't make goal line stands or stop opposing offenses from getting it in the end zone.

The good defenses always find a way to keep points of the board. They adopt bend-but-don't-break attitudes and become very good at it. Our team might not give up a lot of yards, but when it really matters, when a team is marching down the field and we need a big stop, our defense won't do it. I can't remember a goal line stand once this year.

O and you want to hear another impressive stat? How about our turnover production. How many do we have? Try 14. That's fifth worst in the NFC. And when your offense is turning the ball over too, a good defense will step up and make plays and get the ball back. Not this defense though, they are dead last in the NFL in takeaway/giveaway difference. Sure it's not the defense's fault that our offense gives the football away like it's a hot potato, but they aren't very successful at getting some of those turnovers back.

So, in conclusion, what happens when you mix a team's inability to stop the run, inability to keep team's out of the end zone, and a lack of turnover production? You get the 2005 Saints defense. Sure they might look good on paper when you see their yards allowed/game, but look just below the surface and you'll see a unit in realy trouble. Instead of the bend-but-don't-break attitude, they have adopted the bend-and-break-like-Tyrone-Prothro's-ankle strategy.

Deuce,

you are just throwing a whole lot of averages out there...

OK, if you like averages, check this out:
Average points per game scored by the 2005 Saints offense: 16
Average points allowed by the 2000 Ravens defense: 16.5

See?? EVEN IF THE SAINTS DEFENSE WERE THE EQUIVALENT OF THE 2005 RAVENS, STATISTICALLY THEY"D STILL LOSE!!!


... if you go and read the post I made about the defense playing well, you'd see an explanation of actual events on the football field, not just averages.

I'm not going to repeat all of that post here, but, in answering this post of yours, I'll point of that:

The defense is NOT allowing 26.6 points per game. You cannot count points scored by opposing defenses or opposing special teams against the defense.

You say that the 14 take-aways the defense has created are bad.. ok..but how about the offense turning the ball twice as much? The Saints offense has 28 turnovers, which is the worst in the NFL. Not the NFC, the NFL.

Now, let's stay with turnovers for a while...

you say that a good defense finds a way to keep points off the board when the offense turns the ball over.. and that is true to a point.
How many football games have you seen where a team turns the ball over 4, 5, 6 times and they go out and win the game? I'm sure that you'll find a couple here and there, but unless you got the 1985 Bears or the 2000 Ravens defense, your offense turns the ball over 3 times in a game, chances are you lose that game... ESPECIALLY if you turn the ball over in your side of the field.

Now, how about points off turnovers by the Saints offense? How many points off those 14 turnovers has the Saints offense turn into points? Just in the Chicago game, the defense created 3 turnovers, yet the offense could not score a single point off any of them. NOt even a measly field goal.

Now, I don't know if you count field goals as points scored by the offense, but even if you do, here's the average of points scored by the Saints offense: 15.9. OK, let's call it 16. And that is by just adding the totals from all games and dividing them by the number of games played.

One more thing: let me ask you: what happens when you fail to convert on 3rd down?
3 possible outcomes: you go for it on 4th, you attempt a field goal, or you punt. Do you think you aer going to win many games if you don't convert ZERO 3rd downs? How about 2? Or 3??

Um, more than half the points given up by the team have come off turnovers by the pffense and special teams. I will bet $100 you didn't even consider that when posting this. Other than that, continue ranting.

Um, nope, you are wrong yet again. But do keep trying. It's amusing.

Um, only 24 points against App State. They did put the screws to North Texas though. Over 30 against Az State, 27 against Tenn, 37 against Ms. State, 34 against Vandy, 40 against Ole Miss. I guess it's nice to have an offense that scores to go with a defense.

Most of those games are against SEC opponents. That's not "games you get to schedule." Jesus, do you know anything about ANY topic you discuss? But let's look at your thoughts. We played the 0-3 Vikings, and the 0-4 Packers and managed 19 points combined. We played the under .500 Dolphins, and scored 6 points. 17 against the sucky rams, after scoring 14 in the first quarter. How much worse do we need the opponents to be to score? Never mind. You have no idea.

5 out of 37 points, which is 32, which is more than 30? And what kind of dimwit takes a FG out of an offense's scoring? That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my life. You know the offense normally has to drive the FG unit into range right? This isn't even worth my time.

The saddest thing is, you really think you are right. Nobody with even a small bit of intelligence would take special teams points out of an offense's scoring. That's just stupid. AND, even if you take out all the points you wanna take away from the offense, they still average over 25 points a game. So what's your point? The Saints offense isn't even close to that. But the offense's turnovers have led to almost half the toal points allowed by the team. Also, LSU's defense is last in the SEC in takeaways. Dead last, so I guess those 29.9 points a game by the offense helps a little no? So you were wrong about all their points coming against App State and North Texas, wrong about all of them coming against opponents they scheduled, just plain dumb for trying to take out special teams points, and still they have an offense that averages a very high number of points, and you think you are right? F-R-A-U-D.

I'm just throwing averages out there? No, I gave you some good stats, but you obviously just ignored the ones that make my point. Our run defense is awful, they give up over 100 yards to pretty much any back, including three or four 2nd and 3rd stringers. That being said, teams don't have to throw it on us because they can run it instead and be more effective. The whole point of my post, if you actually read the whole thing, is that while yes our offense is really really bad this year, it would be absolutely retarded to just forget about improving our defense just because a few stats have improved. That's what I was saying, not that our defense is totally to blame and that our offense isn't.

So remember, our team might have improved stats in passing defense and total defense, but that's just because of our porous run defense. Also, I still stand by my statement that they don't make big plays when they need to. You wanna argue that one too? If you do, go look at the Atlanta game, or the Miami game, or the St. Louis game, or pretty much every game we've lost; then drink a nice frosty glass of shut the hell up because you'll realize this defense doesn't make big plays when the game is on the line.

Another thing, the 26.6 points/game was my mistake, the stat page I was looking at was titled "Team Defensive Leaders" so I figured it was just points given up by defenses. So good eye, my bad.

O and by the way, where did you get that the Ravens allowed 16 points per game? If you take their points allowed divided by the games played, it comes out to be like 10. But nice try

Yup, this proves it, you are that stupid. Wow.

Um Deuce, you do know Atlanta scored 21 points on two turnovers by the offense and a blocked FG. ALSO, the score was tied 24-24 late in the 5th with 5 minutes left, when AB threw the INT that allowed them t0 go up 31-24, cause us to have to go down the field and score just to tie it, instead of winning the game.

14 more points off turnovers led to that loss.

Has been because of turnovers. But somehow it's the run defense's fault cause they are ranked low? Um, no.

Atlanta game..... 56 seconds left. Atlanta goes 50 yards on our sorry defense who doesn't bother to cover Alge Crumpler and just gets dominated. That's not what I call stepping it up when your team needs it. Sure the offense and special teams gave up some points earlier in the game; but that doesn't change the fact that the defense had an opportunity to stop the Falcons at the end of the game. They didn't make a play when it counted. So yes, I blame the defense for that one.

And the other games have been affected by turnovers, but our porous defense is a large part of why we lose those games. You can't say, "The only reason why we lost those games is because of turnovers." If you do, you should check yourself into a mental hospital because you're insane. THe turnovers hurt, but you can't say they were the ONLY reason we lost; if you do you're a moron. So the turnovers hurt, but our defense also contributed to losing those games. Do you agree?

Check myself into a mental hospital? Moron? And to tobias you told him to have a glass of shet the hell up? Is that where you wanna take this conversation? Cool. It's stupid to say: SOME POINTS?!?!?! They gave up 21 out of 34. That's not some, that's enough to win. Are you even watching the games? Who gives a crap how much rushing yards they give up, or what late game situations they fade in, if the situations ALL could be avoided if not for turnovers and points off? That's stupid. If there is no 21 points off turnovers, there is no late drive by Atlanta. Get it? If you don't, you should move your gear shift from D for drive to S for stupid. IF there is no 14 points given up to St. Louis, there's another win. Our defense ain't great, but leading the league in turnovers is what's killing us. Keeping the other team from scoring is what matters, and our defense has done that. IF they are giving up 26 points a game, half of that has come off turnovers, so they would be giving up 13 a game without them. Anyone who doesn't think that's enough to win should shet the hell up for fear of being mistaken for mentally handicapped. Now is that how we want the convo to continue, or can you make this foolish argument without the insults?

our o sucks

our o sucks

First of all, that was the lamest thing I've ever heard.

Second, I don't care if the offense/special teams gave up 21 points, it was still in the defense's ability to force the game to overtime. Do you agree with that? It wasn't like because the offense and special teams gave up 21 points that the defense could feel justified in giving up a 50 yard drive in under a minute. The two (offense and special teams giving up 21 points & the defense giving up a late drive) are totally unrelated.
What happened before that drive had no bearing on what the defense did on that drive. They had a chance to stop the Falcons and keep them out of scoring range. Did they? NO. They gave up 50 yards in I believe 46 seconds or something.
I don't think you're getting this, the Saints defense had one job at the end of the game, keep ATL out of field goal range. THe game was tied. It doesn't matter how many points the offense gave up. They had one shot. And they blew it. So again I say to you: they don't make the big plays when they need it.

O and about the "insults," they weren't insults directed at you SW, because obviously you're smarter than that. You can't honestly believe that the defense should not be helped in the offseason, which was the entire reason for my argument in the first place. Or can you......

:?

I honestly can not believe anyone would say this. GIVING UP 21 POINTS IN UNRELATED?!?!?!?! WTF?!?!?! Is this two seperate teams? How can you say they are unrelated, when without one, THE OTHER DOESN'T HAPPEN?!?!?!? If there are no 21 points given up, THERE IS NO LAST MINUTE DRIVE. Hello. How is that so difficult to understand? That's like saying if I buy a brand new car, and Mitsubishi built a shoddy engine in my brand new never driven car, and it breaks down 1 mile from the dealership, Mitsubishi is not responsible and I am stuck with that car. It doesn't work like that. It's called cause and effect. Cause: The Saints defense would have held Atlanta to 10 points the whole game if not for turnovers that led to points. They dominated them all day. Effect: After playing more than well enough for us to win, they are asked to do in the late 4th quarter what they had already done all game, and couldn't. But actually they did, cause a BS penalty gave Atlanta a second kick after the first was missed. If not for the BS penalty, we would not even be having this convo. Get it?? I don't see how you can watch and say giving up 21 points, not even by the defense, is unrelated for a TEAM. I can't sit here and honestly believe you think like that.

True. But the offense did give up those points SW. And that is exactly what you don't understand. The defense couldn't do anything about those 21 points. But they COULD have stopped Atlanta on the final drive. The defense can only play defense, and worry about stopping the other team's offense. They can't worry about what their offense does; whether it be good or bad. And they didn't stop ATL.

Bingo. Thank you for understanding me Whodi. You have shown me that you know in your mind that the Saints defense had a chance to stop ATL, and they "couldn't." What's so hard to understand about that?

O and about the BS call, sure we got screwed, but our defense should have never allowed them to get anywhere near field goal range in the first place. In fact, their kicker was already well inside his field goal range, he just made a bad kick. And also, our defense committed a too many men on the field penalty to move them five yards closer even before the special teams got on the field. THEY BLEW IT. Just accept it. The offense and special teams played an awful game, and they were probably mostly to blame for the loss; but you can't sit there and tell me that the defense shouldn't be blamed for allowing that last drive, can you? Or is that the offense's fault too? Did Aaron Brooks make the defense let Alge Crumpler run around uncovered in the back of our secondary? Was it Stecker's fault that Mike Vick was hitting wide open receivers standing by the sidelines? Let me answer that one for you. NO. The Saints' defense had an opportunity to force overtime and they gave up 50 yards in 46 seconds. It's the defense's fault on the last drive.

:lolup:
That's the second lamest thing I've ever heard. Keep your poorly constructed car analogies to yourself.

You say it's lame, cause you know it's true. Why pin a loss on a defense that held a team to 10 points? Isn't the object not to give up points? The MAIN POINT is that if not for 21 points given up by offense and special teams, we win that game, and talk about how great our defense looked stopping Atlanta. End of discussion. It was late in the 4th quarter. I didn't see Atlanta's defense stop us from driving right down the field for a TD after we gave them 7 points on a turnover. Isn't Atlanta's defense supposed to be better than ours? Our defense is not good enough to CONSTANTLY have to overcome offensive mistakes. You would think at some point we were the 2000 Ravens or something the way that flies over your head. We have an AVERAGE defense, so when they do play a GOOD game, it would be nice for the offense not to give the game away. DUH!!

I'll tell you what's lame though:

Lame. I noticed how you didn't try to make that invalid point again. You want more lame?

First it was unrelated. now that can't worry about it? Have you donated your brain to science man? Jesus. We could have the 2000 Ravens defense, if our offense gives up 21 points, WE WOULD LOSE. Crack kills.

Then shet the hell up about it already. We agree. That's that. :P

Just because I'm bored...

The offense has given up 37 points directly. This would lower the D's ppg average from 25.4 to 22.5. This 22.5 ppg is 3 points BETTER than last year's worst ranked defense.

The offense is averaging 16.4 points per game vs their 2004 campaign average of 21.8, or 5.4 points WORSE. More and better weapons this year, as well, plus a simplified offense for AB.

Fold in 17 of 27 turnovers committed by the offense inside the Saints 40 and you get closer to "league's worst" in a hurry.

Who sucks more? The AB led offense. Why are the Saints losing? The AB led offense.

Why should I have to make that point again? I already made it once. Do you have a learning disability and need me to repeat all of my points again?

Also, I think you've entirely missed my whole point, which I stated in my very first post on this thread:

I know you can't believe that this defensive unit doesn't need any help via the draft or free agency. And if you do, then I'll just assume that you do have that learning disability.

Also, step up and answer this question, because you've done a pretty good job of skirting the issue. Go on, man up:

Go ahead, say that it's the defense's fault on the last drive because anybody with half a brain knows that the defense had a shot. Forget the rest of the game. It was the defense's fault, right?

Let's say I bought a car from Mitsubishi...

I don't know where you were when they were handing out brains, but the next time the opportunity comes to your town, grab one. I answered your dumb ass question, you even quoted it: LMAO!!! And I have a learning disability? You even said: hahahahaha. Whoops. Shouldn't try to look smart champ, or like you are even in this argument. I told you once before, crack kills.

Ignorance is a luxury few can afford, so you must be rich. But to add to it, you didn't eve bother responding to xan, cause he deaded you argument as well. Find a new bag, this one's too heavy for you.

Ummm actually chief you never answered my question. I quoted you in the same post that I asked you the question. After I asked you the question:

you never gave me an answer. So who has the learning disability? You still think that because the offense was bad, it gives the right for the defense to give up a last second drive in a tie game. My quote:

is in response to you saying that "the defense couldn't stop them on the last drive but it was still the offense's fault." I asked you a new question, shouldn't the defense be held responsible for the last drive, and you still haven't stepped up and answered. Nice try with all of the put-downs and "witty" insults, but I'm not impressed. You can try to call me dumb or whatever, but the truth is, you agreed with me on something else, I asked a new question, and you never answered it. So come on Whodi, I'm waiting, shouldn't the defense be blamed for the last drive?

I don't know what kind of creepy ass town you live in (actually I do because I've been there and it sucks (especially seeing the lady jump out of the Marriott on the Riverwalk, but hell, if I was in San Antonio for more than one day, I'd probably jump to my death too)), but where I come from in Dallas people don't "hand out" brains. People are usually "born" with brains. I think I learned that kind of stuff in elementary school. Haha, you must have picked a bad brain, so why don't you go read what I wrote, realize you're wrong, go back to elementary school so you can understand how human beings work, and then answer the question Whodi. I don't give two craps what xan said, that's his opinion, and he didn't even answer my question. His response:
is a response to the question, who should be blamed for our losses. My question was "shouldn't the defense be blamed for the last drive?" Do I have to spoon feed this all to you SW?

LMAO!!! That's the best you can do?? The sad part is, you take my put down, and try to expand on it instead of coming up with your own. And then put down San Antonio, as if Dallas is better. ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the dumbest thing you have said yet. But you haven't posted again so, it won't be long before you top it.

If I say the defense couldn't stop them on the last drive, which is what you quoted, how does that not answer the question, I just said they couldn't stop them. Hello, anyone in there? THEY COULDN'T STOP THEM. COULD NOT. Is that an answer to a question that you seem to have ADD about? Someone needs to reintroduce your brain to your mouth so that you are not talking out your arse. COULD NOT STOP THEM. But the response I gave also stated they would not have had to had it not been for unconventional points given up. DUH. How long does it take the little bus to bring you home in the evening?

No, you don't give two craps cause it made you look dumb as you do now trying to defend this assinine point. Here's a couple of dollars, go buy a clue. Should the defense be blamed for the last drive? Yeah, you should, if you're a moron.

One of you mods move this to the smack talk board please. PLEASE!!!!! :D

Right, because it's the Saints offense's fault the Falcons' offense went 50 yards in 46 seconds and kicked a field goal...

But my question didn't ask whether or not the "unconventional points" mattered. I asked a simple question, and you tried to weasle your way out of it by blaming the offense.

Also, about Dallas and San Antonio... just three of the many reasons why Big D is better:

Average income for a San Antonio household: $36,214 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio#Tourism
Average income for a Dallas household: $37,628 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas

Dallas sports teams: Dallas Cowboys, Texas Rangers, Dallas Mavericks, Dallas Stars
San Antonio sports teams: San Antonio Spurs, trying to steal the Saints as we speak.....

San Antonio: home to Tom Benson
Dallas: not

Sucks to be wrong again doesn't it Whodi?

OK and I'm done. Good arguments Whodi. You're right about our offense being worse than our defense, I'll give you that. Only thing I was trying to do was to get you to understand that the sentiment that I was getting from other posters that "the defense is fine" is absurd. But I will remove myself from this conversation, good game.

Dude, wtf are you talking about? You haven't been right once, except when you talk about getting rid of Brooks. Other than that, you sound like a fool. Dallas' income ifs$1400 more a year proves something? $1400??? I spend that on DVDs CDs and video games in a year, please. It prob looked like $14,000 to you, so you thought you had something. Strike one.

Hate the Cowboys, only like the Braves in baseball, the Mavs suck, and I have been a spurs fan for 17 years now, even before I moved out of New Olreans. Hockey Sucks. Do you have a point, or do you just enjoy looking like an ass? Wait, don't answer. I should be slapped for even thinking you had a point.

Um, New Orleans is home to Tom Benson. Not San Antonio. He does have businesses here though. Once again you answer my question about haivng no point.

:stupid:

Last word

No, this one is: Done. :P