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SFinAustin 04-13-2003 09:35 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Now, hopefully we can focus on the draft since our Safety questions have been answered. I still have a feeling a few more signings are to come! What do you guys think about the Jones trade?

D_it_up 04-13-2003 09:54 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Where did you hear this? I haven\'t seen any confirmation on it yet

JOESAM2002 04-13-2003 12:53 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Saints | Jones Trade Worked Out - posted at KFFL (http://nfl.kffl.com)
8:17 PT: Jeff Duncan, of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, reports the New Orleans Saints and New England Patriots have agreed to terms on a trade that will send S Tebucky Jones from New England to New Orleans for a third- and seventh-round draft choice in the 2003 NFL Draft and a fourth-round pick in the 2004 NFL Draft. The Saints have two picks in both the third and seventh rounds this year, and it’s unclear which picks will be sent. An official announcement on the trade is expected to come on Monday.

WhoDat 04-13-2003 11:55 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Well, I for one am VERY HAPPY to see this deal finally done. I think the Saints may have slightly overpaid for Jones, both in terms of the draft picks they gave up and in terms of the salary they\'re offering. Let\'s hope he can become the player he should be by now.

Still, I\'m very happy to see this. Finally, finally, the Saints have made a move to bring in a guy who at very least, has the potential to significantly impact the game in our favor. I\'m excited about seeing the wood that Mitchell and Jones will be laying on opposing wide outs dumb enough to come across the middle.

To me, that leaves us with needs at CB, LB, DT, and TE. My hope is to see a slight move up via the trade of a first and third to pick up Trufant. Then, I\'d really like to see them pick up Bailey (b/c I think the guy is a freak), but EJ wouldn\'t hurt either. Use the second rounder to pick up a DT or TE, and look to the rest of free agency to find whichever other position they don\'t draft (Conwell or McGlockton are my favorites).

Pak - step one in our plan is complete. On to step two... in a couple of weeks now.

rodjmaw 04-14-2003 02:30 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
I hate I hate it!!!!!.. They could of pick up TJ cuz I am bout 99.9% sure this guy would\'ve been released. The money the saints was offerring I don\'t see any other team matching if he was released. The Patriots had too many picks in this draft to keep TJ.

My main gripe is giving the Patriot a 4th rd. pick next year :casstet: Hopefully they recieve 3rd. rd.pick we obtain this year & not the one we obtain from K.C. The 7th rd. pick I believe is not bad trade.

Well anyway I am hoping the saints don\'t trade anymore picks.

1st rd. Dennis Weathersby or Rasheen Mathis The saints corners are 30+ in age
1st rd. Boss Bailey
2nd rd Bradie James a MLB with speed and get off blocks easily
3rd rd Drayton Florence or Bennie Joppru (if they don\'t sign Ernie Conwell)
5th rd L.J Smith saint need a full back who can block and catch

BlackandBlue 04-14-2003 08:02 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
I think Weathersby and Woolfolk will be available in the 2nd round. Mathis is good, but no longer addresses a need (especially if Mitchell plays as well as I think he will play). Our #1 target in the draft should be trying to move up to get Trufant. If he is no longer on the boards, I would prefer them to take a combination of two of the following Bailey/Henderson/best DT on the board. If someone wants to move up and the deal is worth it (ie we get a 2nd or 3rd rounder as well as a 1st), then you make that trade. NO giving away the draft we have now to move up, though, I don\'t want another Ditka like draft.

lumm0x 04-14-2003 09:00 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Hey Rod...there was no way they were going to release Jones. My reason for this is they would have removed the franchise tag before the deadline if they intended to. By keeping it on they void the use of it for next year at least. Why would they risk doing that with the possible FA they have next year just to drop the guy in JUne or something. Makes no sense. They tested the waters, found a fish and mad etheir decision to keep him tagged and force us to trade or be content to play him and let Victor Green go and restructure Milloy.

WhoDat 04-14-2003 09:02 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
I agree B&B... I doubt you\'ll see anything remotely \"Ditka-like\" from this group though.

Rod - hey man, it\'s about time the Saints made a big move in free agency. Might TJ have been released later? Sure... he MIGHT have. This may we\'re making sure we get him. I said I\'d give up a 3rd and a sixth for him. It looks like it may be a 3rd, 7th, and 4th next year. The 4th next year is a little more than I wanted, but c\'mon. It\'s a pretty good move for this team.

BlackandBlue 04-14-2003 10:32 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Moving those picks did not come close to compensation for TJ. I figure he\'s going to be a $3.75 million dollar cap hit each year over the next five. A 3rd, 4th, and 7th would be lucky enough to total that amount, and that\'s extreme luck.

WhoDat 04-14-2003 11:13 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Bottom line - Jones should be better this year as any safety taken in the draft. Over the long run, if he plays up to potential, no safety taken this year should be any better than him. Sure, he has to play to potential and that\'s a risk... but no more of a risk than you take on a college player. This was a very good moves for the Saints. FINALLY, they brought in a big-name on defense. Let\'s be happy.

If they can sign Conwell, then look at where we\'ll be... We can use our picks to go after Trufant, take a LB, DT, and still possibly even have a third rounder to use on a back up for Deuce or a DE or OL position. That\'s great. C\'mon guys, I\'m excited about this one... if I\'m happy how can you be unhappy? ;)

D_it_up 04-14-2003 01:13 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
WOW! Is this the SAME WHODAT that just two weeks ago was the most negative Saint fan on Earth? I\'m not believing my eyes! :P I like this side of you. HAHA! BRING ON THE POSITIVE!!! Anyways, I like the deal. We still have our first rounders that we can use for bait to move up, IF they decide to. I feel this is pretty deep draft, and we can find a sleeper in the 2nd rd. Hey..maybe we can trade one of our first rounders and Norman Hand to move up to the one spot to get Newman. Wishful thinking? I know. I should be shot for that comment. LOL. But seriously, I believe that TJ will be a HUGE plus to our defense alongside Mel Mitchell. Now we know we have a guy that is capable of backing them up in Jay Bellamy (which he should\'ve been a back-up all along). If Conwell is signed, then we can focus on the main three positions we need it....defensive tackle, linebacker, and corner. I KNEW that the Saints had a gameplan, it just took them a while to get around to it. If it works, they\'ll look like geniuses.

patman 04-14-2003 02:20 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
The Saints have a free safety with all the physical skills that you can ask for the position.
If he plays just half the special teams PR and KR will go along way to having him be worth it to you. Is he worth a 3,4 & 7 yes without a doubt, is he worth a #2 yes. The saints I think paid more money for him than he deserved and that is why he did not sign with the Pats. But that is how free agency works you only need one team to set the market for your guy.

As far as bringing in other guys the pats knew you were bluffing because you just bought in scrubs. nobody that was an upgrade to Knight. But offering that amount of money stopped a lot of teams from negotiating with the pats. The amunt of money offered by the saints trumped other bidders. Tbucky would not have approved a trade to somewhre else unlees the money was the same.

BlackandBlue 04-14-2003 02:43 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Lassiter was the only one that came close to Knight, and that would have been even...two or more years ago. Flowers couldn\'t hold Knight\'s jock. Yeah, all we did was bring in scrubs, but that\'s because the Saints weren\'t going to pay a 2nd rounder for TJ...hell, we couldn\'t completely ignore the position, because nothing is a sure thing until the contract is signed. We had to look at other opportunities and accept the possiblity that we would not have TJ and find a starter elsewhere.
I find it hard to believe that you say he\'s worth a #2, even though no other team stepped up and offered one. If they were willing to shell out a #2 pick for the guy, they would have damn sure given him a bloated contract as well. As far as I\'m concerned, he\'s worth a 3, 4, & 7, because that was the top price.

iceshack149 04-14-2003 02:53 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Beautiful. The tight end is secured. The safety is secured.
As far as the draft goes, keep #17 and #18. With so many DT\'s available in the draft we should be fine there. E.J. or Boss should be there so take one of them. If Mathis is available in the second, nab him. I just hope Carter gets back to pro bowl form this year.

rodjmaw 04-14-2003 07:18 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
I really realy want the saints to get Rasheen Mathis in the 1st rd. cuz the guy want be around in the second. If they\'re capable of moving up in the draft without losing anymore picks(trade a 1st rd. and Norman Hand) to get Trufant that would be great, but I don\'t think it will happen.

The saints have to get either Dennis Weathersby or Rasheen Mathis cuz they want be around in the 2nd. for us. The saint possibly are thinking of getting Drayton Florence in the 3rd but I think Weathersby is a better corner than people think.

patman 04-14-2003 07:34 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Black and Blue, If the Saints had only offered 4years at 2.5 each year another team might have became interested. It was not like the Pats had him under contract, we could not trade him to a team that would pay him less than another team. He would refuse the trade by not signing with the other team. Minn might have been intersted so would have Arizona or Pitt. But the Saints by paying him more than the pats expected stopped all bidding.
I hope I am explainig myself.

rodjmaw 04-14-2003 07:45 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Do anyone know our cap #\'s since our 2 new signee? I hope we are able to lure a good DT. If we go 3 - 4 defense, Boss Bailey & Bradie James will be nice picks and no need for a DT.

WhoDat 04-14-2003 08:21 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
I\'m guessing that a 3-4 is as likely as the Saints drafting Charles Rogers.

iceshack149 04-14-2003 10:03 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Not sure where we stand with the cap. I just want Horn to get the money he deserves. Talent is good to have but happy talent is great. Horn\'s a great receiver so pay him what he\'s worth.
If we thought that Turley had a big mouth, see what happens when Horn isn\'t happy.

BlackandBlue 04-15-2003 08:19 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Quote:

If the Saints had only offered 4years at 2.5 each year another team might have became interested.
Now you are just speculating. Bill said he wanted a 2nd rounder initially. He\'s the only person in the NFL that has mentioned a 2nd rounder and TJ in the same sentence. I haven\'t heard any quotes from any GM\'s that made any type of comment such as, \"We\'d give a 2nd rounder for TeBuckey, but we can\'t match what the Saints are offering as far as a contract is concerned.\"
Look at it like this, when you lay down to go to sleep at night, you move around until you are in a comfortable position. That\'s what the Saints and the Patriots did. The Saints went up on their offer, and the Patriots went down. The Patriots were not comfortable paying $10 million to their safeties, and the Saints needed a starter at safety. They agreed on a 3rd, 4th, and 7th. I don\'t understand your continued pursuit at trying to convince everyone that he was worth a 2nd. I hope I am explaining myself.

EDIT: I haven\'t had much of a chance to see the Patriots play since the Super Bowl 2 years ago, was curious about this defense scheme they run. Is it a 4-2-5 or a 5-1-5?

[Edited on 15/4/2003 by BlackandBlue]

WhoDat 04-15-2003 11:38 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
If Joe\'s year in 2003 is any worse than his 2002 year it will ONLY be because the Saints better utilize their tight ends and runningbacks in the passing game. Don\'t listen to him Shack. Gator believes Joe Horn will get worse this year, but I\'m not sure what he\'s basing that idea on other than his gut feeling... age maybe? ;)

Fact is, that Horn has played at a Pro Bowl level each year he\'s been here. He did it when he was basically the only guy we had in 2000. He did it with another 1000 yard reciever (Willie Jackson) in 01, and he did it again in 02 with a rookie phenom and a guy they brought in to \"stretch the field\" in Pathon. I see no reason to believe that he\'ll stop.

Gator thinks anyone over the age of 28 is too old to produce anymore (right Gator? ;) ). Bottom line to me - Horn has done it year in year out regardless of who else is around him, what the offensive scheme is, etc. I see NO signs of him slowing down. Will he eventually? Of course. But bottom line is right now, he\'s a Pro Bowler. He\'s the best receiver that the Saints have ever had. There are plenty of other guys in the league who are older them him and can still get it done as a number one receiver.

I think what Horn is asking for now is a bit high... but that\'s what you do when you negociate. You ask for more than you really want, and compromise down to where you really ought to be. Horn deserves a big contract. He\'s worth it. And you are very right about Horn and his mouth. If Horn doesn\'t get his money he will be a problem in the locker room. Even Gator knows that. ;)

D_it_up 04-15-2003 11:39 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
One thing I do have to say about Joe is that he keeps himself in tremendous shape. If he does get injured, it is normally minor. He\'s been producing at a high level since he came to New Orleans. I feel as long as he keeps himself together physically, there is no reason why the Saints COULDN\'T sign him to a long deal. I know these next two examples of WR\'s up in age will bring more debate, but Jerry Rice and Tim Brown are STILL performing at a high level. What makes you think Joe couldn\'t?

WhoDat 04-15-2003 11:46 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
You\'re exactly right D, but don\'t talk to Gator about those two guys. They are exceptions to the rule in his mind.... we already had this debate. And seeing how Gator never answered my first challenge... hehehe... I\'ll put my list of \"older\" receivers up again and see if Gator can find me 20 better young players.. These are all number one or two receivers on their team\'s depth chart.

Rod Smith - entering 9th year.
Marvin Harrison - entering 8th.
Jimmy Smith - 10 years in the league.
Johnnie Morton - 9 years in.
Eddie Kennison - entering 8th year.
Troy Brown - starting his 11th year.
Wayne Chrebet - entering 9th year
Curtis Conway - 10 years in the league.
Frank Sanders - entering 9th year.
Shawn Jefferson - 12 years in the league.
Muhsin Muhammad - Entering 8th year.
Joey Galloway - Entering 9th year.
Bill Schroeder - Entering 9th year.
Amani Toomer - Going into 8th year.
Terrell Ownes - Entering 8th year.
Bobby Engram - Entering 8th year.
Isaac Bruce - 9 years in the league.
Keyshawn Johnson - Entering 8th year.
Keenan McCardell - 12 years in the league.

Go find me 20 better receivers with less experience. These guys aren\'t all stars, but they\'re all solid.

Gator? ;)

WhoDat 04-15-2003 11:47 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
PS - That list excludes Horn, Rice, and Brown - three of the best in the league.

ScottyRo 04-15-2003 01:49 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
WhoDat, I thought your challenge to Gator was very interesting so I decided to take it up. However, instead of basing my players on years of experience I based the list on age since it is age that makes a player slow down rather than how many years of experience he has. (Although the two may seem inter-related, a player such as Horn may not have as many years experience as another player, but still is a couple years older - and presumably about to becomet slower.)

First, I went over your list. All your players except Amani Toomer are or will be 30 or more this coming season. In his place I\'ll give you Eric Moulds, who will be 30 this season. I added in Horn, Rice and Brown bringing your total to 22 players.

Second, I compiled my list of 22. All players are 29 or younger:

Randy Moss, 26
Torry Holt, 27
Plaxico Burress, 26
David Boston, 25
Peerless Price, 27
Ike Hilliard, 28
Amani Toomer, 29
Donald Driver, 28
Donte Stallwoth, 22
Marty Booker, 27
Chris Chambers, 25
David Patten, 29
Jerry Porter, 25
Derrick Mason, 29
Ashley Lelie, 23
Koren Robinson, 23
Deion Branch, 24
James Thrash, 28
Kevin Dyson, 27
Antonio Bryant, 22
Antwaan Randle El, 24
Jabar Gaffney, 23

I think for the most part our lists match up pretty favorably. Your top 2 or 3 players are so elite in the league it is hard to say that any of mine are better, but once you get past those my list is better.

Better because they\'re just as good now AND because they\'ll be around longer.

One other point I\'d like to make is that there really isn\'t room here for a statistical comparison between this list and WhoDat\'s. That is because a player like Jerry Porter, for instance, isn\'t yet getting the opportunities to put up big stats because he\'s behind Rice and Brown. However, if you watched him last year, you know that he\'s gonna be good for years to come.

Well? What do you think?

WhoDat 04-15-2003 02:26 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
You guys put together a couple of good lists. Mine happened to contain the starting receivers for both the NFC and AFC Pro Bowl squads... all of them... but yours aren\'t bad.

A couple other notes... Gator, a 1967 Mustang convertible IS worth more than a 2003 corvette... and it\'s not as fast. Bad analogy... but it actually kind of speaks to my point. You DON\'T give 21-22 year old players huge contracts... why? B/c they\'re rookies. You\'re 22 when you graduate. You don\'t know what they will do. But let\'s say Donte plays out his contract... but never quite lives up to his billing. At 27 you sign him to a new deal and he becomes a star. Are you telling me you DON\'T resign him to a long term deal? C\'mon Gator. It\'s a nice fantasy to think that players should live up to their current contract, but that\'s not football. If a player overachieves he gets a new contract. If we don\'t give it to him Horn with throw such a fit that he\'ll have to be traded like Turley was. To you, that\'s probably OK b/c I imagine you think Dante Stallworth (who has played one season in which he got injured) is as good right now as Joe Horn (who has been to three straight Pro Bowls). He\'s not Gator.

Finally, I am amazed that you would say \"Joe couldn\'t be anyone else\'s #1 reciever in the League.\" How many other receivers have been to 3 straight Pro Bowls? Are you going to tell me that the SAINTS made him into what he is? Without OUR system he couldn\'t perform like he has? That\'s ridiculous.

The bottom line remains unchanged. Horn is one of the best receivers in the league right now. He\'s shown no signs of slowing. He was promised a big contract by Loomis this off-season. If they are willing to keep Venturi at D-coordinator out of LOYALTY, then Horn should be the highest player in the league. My point is, the Saints should live up to their promises and pay the guy who has been our most consistent and best player over the last three years, the best player at his position in our team\'s history, the money he deserves. And yes, he does deserve more than he is getting right now.

WhoDat 04-15-2003 02:31 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Out of curiosity Gator, are you happy with the Tebucky move?

iceshack149 04-15-2003 03:48 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Way to get us back on track, whodat.
Tebucky is too old. :D Just goofin\'. Tebucky has alot of physical talent. He brings speed and I think that he\'s really beginning to understand his position well. I\'m excited. I miss Sammy but TJ should fit in just fine.

lsusurfer 04-15-2003 04:39 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
All this debate about Horn is useless:

Facts:
He wants a new contract
He wont play without one
WE NEED HIM NEXT YEAR, nobody can replace him

so....
WE HAVE TO PAY

and I think we should

BlackandBlue 04-15-2003 04:46 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
What condition is that Mustang in? I agree the Vette would be more even if both are in mint condition, but I figured it would be worth more than $16K.
Horn wants a 7 year deal. That would put him playing till he is 38-39 years old. I don\'t see it. I\'d be all for giving him a fat 5 year deal, but not 7.

WhoDat 04-15-2003 05:03 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
That\'s exactly what I think B&B. That\'s what I said earlier too. C\'mon Gator, even I would be surprised and a little disappointed if the Saints gave Horn the contract he\'s talking about. Like I said, it\'s a negociating tactic. I think realistically the deal will look more like a 5 year contract at about $3 mill a year in salary and another $1-$2 million in signing bonus. So, in total closer to 5 years, $15 mill with a $10 mill signing bonus.

Of course, this is just my opinion and it\'s total speculation. I agree that we shouldn\'t enter anything too prohibitive with Horn. It just seems like you\'re willing to dump him if he doesn\'t want a contract that gives him little more than he\'s getting right now. I\'d rather the Saints move a little and give him SOME more money than lose him. Consider the alternative... Pathon, Stallworth and... Lewis? are no where even remotely close to the threat that Horn, Stallworth, and Pathon are.

It also seems like you\'re kind of playing the grass is greener on the other side role here Gator. I know you tend to like younger players (aka draftees) and you are... let\'s say \"frugal\". Yet, you like the TJ as a player and Conwell. Conwell is older than Horn... I think, off the top of my head... and TJ is only a year or two younger. My point is that you may be taking him for granted b/c A. he\'s here, and B. he\'s not a young guy like Stallworth.

I\'ll go out on a limb here... but if Horn is given a five year extension and he plays it out, I\'m betting that Stallworth will never catch him in terms of his numbers as a Saint. I really really like Stallworth. Hell, I have his jersey... and not Horn\'s... but the guy has had the same injury four out of the last five years. I can\'t Horn being more than a little banged up since he got here. Sure Stallworth is young and strong, but take it from a guys who has been injured the same way multiple times... that part of your body get\'s weaker. In fact, I even have the SAME problem Stallworth does. Hamstring problems. I\'ve torn or pulled that muscle four times. I becomes hard to go all out and lot reinjure it... especially in a contact sport like football. Let\'s just keep Horn\'s importance in sight. He\'s the best receiver we\'ve got. He is the MOST PROVEN weapon we\'ve got. Even with Deuce, Brooks, and Stallworth, he may be the post potent weapon on our offense... at least the top two or three over the next three seasons... pay him.

nocloning 04-15-2003 06:16 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Joe Horn: If his contract was up he would probably get the money you are talking about, WhoDat. But he\'s under contract AND he\'s dealing with Loomis. Loomis just doesn\'t \"tick\" this way, to give someone a contract expansion - or rather a new contract with more money - if the player is still under contract. He strikes me more as someone who is happy he made a bargain on the deal he made with Joe some years back.
Plus I think he (and gator) is right: Wait and see what Horn will be able to produce in the next two years, maybe start negotiating in the middle of 2005. You signed the contract, Joe, live with the consequences.

WhoDat 04-15-2003 10:44 PM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Ah - but what about Brooks? Didn\'t they give Brooks a contract extension a year ago? Worth way more than his value... for an unproven player... How about the extension they gave Haslett? If Loomis plays the wait and see game with Horn - he\'ll be gone by next season... and this year won\'t be great either b/c Horn will be pouting all year long. That just gives Haslett another excuse as to why things can all fall apart and it\'s not poor little Haz\'s fault.

lsusurfer 04-16-2003 09:05 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
I don\'t see why everyone is trying to pinch pennies, in one post you guys are saying you are pissed off that the Saints never pay up and lose proven vets and in the next your worried about Horn being able to perform and want to save cash. Horn is too damn cocky to not perform, it would hurt ego to have a bad year. He is a great receiver and I don\'t want to see him playing for Atlanta next year, imagine Vick and Horn chewing up the Saints. Just pay him, Horn is going to perform for a long time just like Rice....plus I agree, if you are going to pay Brooks you should atleast pay Horn.

BlackandBlue 04-16-2003 09:33 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Since age doesn\'t seem to matter to you, let\'s get Seau in here on a seven year deal too. Hell, he\'s worth it, eh?

WhoDat 04-16-2003 10:47 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
Oh come on B&B... you really don\'t think the Saints should resign Horn? Again, I don\'t like the 7 year, $6 billion contract he wants, but... not extending it at all? Bad move.

BlackandBlue 04-16-2003 10:51 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
I never said don\'t extend his contract at all, I\'m just saying for a player his age, I think a 7 year deal is too long. I\'d rather see him get paid a fat contract over five years, that comaprtively speaking, would put him at the top of WR salaries per year.

WhoDat 04-16-2003 11:05 AM

S Tebucky Jones finally a Saint!!!
 
agreed.


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