Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

I got this from profootballtalk.com and it makes perfect sense!

They are right about the Deuce part!

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

I say those other execs should keep their nose in their own house. I agree with players finishing out their current contracts as they are written but in Horns situation he was asked by management to restructure his contract with a promise to renogotiate again this year.

Every team that wants to keep a player from going into free agency renogotiates contracts early. Maybe this exec is hoping to get sour Horn so next year he can bring him to play for his team.

my opinion

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

What an amazingly ignorant article. The \"exec\" referred to must be some 19 year old college intern because this person has absolutely no idea of how the Saints operate.

Sure AB did and Horn will get their new contracts and both threatened to hold out in the process, but Mueller and now Loomis have shown that they\'re not afraid of letting players go that want more money than management thinks they are worth. The list of exmples of this is long, indeed: Johnson, Glover, Knight, Clemons, to name a few. Further, if a player is going to be a distraction, out that player goes too. (Turley, Williams).

So the Saints have decided to pay certain players to keep them here. What\'s wrong with that? It\'s not like Saints players created the word \"Hold-out\" or were the first to use it in the NFL. It is simply a negotiation tool.

As far as whether Deuce will try this...If he plays as well as he did last year and decides his value to the Saints is above his salary, then let him try to get a new contract. There\'s nothing wrong with keeping your star players happy.

[Edited on 19/4/2003 by ScottyRo]

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

The money Horn and the Saints are talking about is fair compensation for the work Horn does and the results he gets on the field. I have no promblem with this deal. As for the message it sends the players, how about this teams will be just and pay a player if his preformance exceeds his contract, not a bad message to send at all.

[Edited on 4/19/2003 by saint5221]

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

That \"exec\" needs his BALLS cut off and stuffed in his mouth to shut him up. It\'s just another case of the man trying to keep us down. Anyone who can take pot shots on the Saints will do so, because no one respects the franchise. Then again, when their franchise does something stupid, or one of their players act like idiots (i.e. Randy Moss), then they get defensive when their player is talked about. If they don\'t like the way the Saints\' organization negotiates, then F\' em.

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

Actually, I still wouldn\'t agree with it. They act like the Saints is the only team where this scenario happens. When the superstars of the a team aren\'t happy, then they show it by holding out. Hell, there have been MANY times when people who WEREN\'T superstars held out. It\'s not just with the Saints, it\'s with EVERY team. The only way I wouldn\'t agree with it is if the player wasn\'t of the caliber of a Joe Horn. Let\'s say Michael Hawthorne held out of camp, because he\'s wanting an outrageous salary for someone who hasn\'t proven himself. O.K.? See ya, Michael. You\'re only hurting yourself. Are you hurting the team? Not really. Next scenario. Darren Howard. The guy blows up in his rookie season and shows the potential to be an elite DE in the league. The next couple of years\' stats are supbar from his rookie season, but it\'s not from his lack of trying or that he isn\'t working hard. You can only be as good as your team around you. Should we break the bank on re-signing him? No. This is when the hardest negotiating tactics should come in. You\'ve got a guy that has the capability of dominating a game defensively, but hasn\'t completely shown it yet. Find a happy medium for both parties and move on. One more? Let\'s say that Deuce McAllister is closing in on the end of his contract and wants an extension. Deuce has led the NFC in rushing and been to the Pro Bowl in his SECOND SEASON. I\'m not saying give the guy all the riches of heaven, but pay the man for what he has and very well can accomplish in the future. Joe Horn is NO DIFFERENT. He was promised an extension for re-working his contract. Sure he was mouthing off that he\'d hold out if he didn\'t get it. Wouldn\'t you be a little upset if you felt a boss was going back on his word after promising you a promotion, but was taking his time getting around to it? I know I would. Joe is a proven Pro-Bowler. Once again, I\'m not saying pay the guy the riches of heaven, but just make the guy happy so he\'ll play some football....FOR US. I\'m sure that ANY NFL TEAM would jump on the chance of paying him if it was within their boundaries of the salary cap. I don\'t see what the Saints organization does for negotiating tactics as any different than any other team. That\'s just my opinion on it. As far as missing it totally? I think I\'m hitting the nail right on the head.

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

I\'m not sure that in this day of free agency that anything in this post is right. If it\'s true, why is Sammy Knight having such a hard time finding someone to pay him what he thinks he is worth? Everyone that\'s been on this board for any lenght of time knows I\'m a Sammy Knight fan, but it looks to me like he screwed the pooch on this one. Looks like no team is going to pay him what he wants.

I also know that some will say this situation is completely different but Sammy is as good at his position as Horn is at his.
i think Joe is just doing something that I have always tried to do myself.
\" Cover your ass before someone covers it for you.\"

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

unfortunately i agree with gator, i think this article has some validity, i have heard nothing but bad things about horn and his off-field life, AB absolutely deserved to hold out since he was making league minimum and wanted a deal before he became a free agent and was tempted by money to move elsewhere, horn has been putting up the numbers and was promised a new deal but he could be less vocal about certain things, in my honest opinion i think trading horn should have been considered, before you start yelling at your monitor, i know he has put up the numbers and been a key part of this offense but i honestly believe once he gets his money his play will fall off, i believe he deserves the money but wish he was getting it from somewhere else because i doubt his commitment, he is one of the few players left from the \'old\' saints who are disgruntled with the way the team has dealt with veteran players, after seeing what teams paid fro price and coles we could have gotten a king\'s ransom for horn

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

Now I know this will upset people, but I\'ll speak my (humble) opinion anyway. I believe Joe has earned that cash, in spite of his existing contract.

I can\'t remember when I was this excited about the Saints offense - ever. If you look back through all the years, it was always defense, defense, defense, then the O lets down. Well, I believe that Joe is the key person that helped to change that for really the first time in franchise history.

So... if any other players want to step up blow out existing franchise records on a consistent basis, then let them. And give them something special for a special job.

Pay him.

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

Actually Gator I don\'t like Horn I find his arrogance and cocky demeanor hard to watch, I wish he showed more class and less trash. I cannot however, find any falt with the absolut effort and results this guy acheives every game. Before you crucify Horn and say he is \" the one f---ing this team.\" ,consider this is life in football now. It would be great for the Saints if he played out his contract honored his original deal. But do the Saint or any other team respond in like kind? Absolutly not, If a players production slips the team will renegotiate his contract or cut him. I am not looking the other way I\'m looking at a tough buisness where both sides are looking out for there own best intrests, its an adversarial system and not just in N.O. Horn goes out and plays hard and produces I\'m ok with paying for preformance and dumping lack of. If someones production is in the top ten his pay should be to. The numbers Horn is putting up make a contract extension of 3 years and more money fair. I want to see the Saints win, Joe Horn helps us do that . Obviously only keep him if the salary demands are not exorbitant but we have a league full of contracts to help establish that. The numbers being tossed around now seem in line. This is not one player holding a team hostage, it is NFL football today. The Saint are not showing a lack of balls they are just playing the game.

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

I\'m confused.

So this guy thinks that we should have continued to pay AB $650,000 a year, even though he is our starting QB and future QB star? Or that we should continue to pay Horn, a pro bowler and our #1 reciever, the equivalent of #2 recievers on other teams? Is this how we reward players in the NFL?
\"Yes, Joe, we\'re paying you $2 million, so we expect you to play like a #2 reciever. Would you mind dropping a few more passes so your yardage total goes down to, say, 7-800 yards? We don\'t want to pay you anymore money because we\'re afraid of some two-bit journalist that has an agenda and what he might write about our organization.\"
\"Yes, AB, you heard me. We DON\'T want you to throw directly to the recievers, could you maybe, throw twice as many interceptions as you do TD\'s so we don\'t have to pay you more than a bench player?
Yeah....that makes complete sense! :casstet:

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

The situations are different. Most contracts get renegotiated in the last season, which AB was in. Same thing goes for Turley for that matter. Horn has two years left on his deal paying him $3 mil per, not exactly the veteran minimum.

Clearly, Sammy Knight wasn\'t let go because of money because Tebucky has the 4th richest deal for a safety in league history. His speed is why he\'s gone.

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

actually knight had one more year one his contract that he voided himself because he wanted to be a free agant, the saints did not cut knight, he thought he could make more elsewhere

DUH!

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

It\'s also known that he exercised his option because they wouldn\'t negotiate with him. Had he not decided to become a free agent, they would have decided for him.

Duh!

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

actually there were some negotiations but they didn\'t last long because knight wanted too much money, knight thought he deserved big money after a mediocre season in which he played a role in the team\'s biggest weakness

and now he is reaping the benefits of all his ability

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

What gets me about this article is this so called exec. trying to throw blame on the saints. Where is this execs criticism of the patriots new contract for Brady last year? I would be very much opposed to iving Horn a new contract if Mueller had not promised a new deal. I would rather honor an agreement than have a player on the field who will ride out his contract with less than 100% effort.

A solution in my mind would be to add incentives to Horns contract that will allow him to earn top money with continued performance.

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

I understand what you\'re saying about setting a precedent. It\'s a valid point.

However, in light of his voluntary restructure last year, I stand by my opinion. And I believe Loomis feels the same.

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

True, so why use this as evidence in your article to back your claims when all the Saints were doing in AB\'s case was following precedence.

Again?

Quote from profootballtalk.com
indeed :exclam:

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

The funny thing about those of you who are in agreement with this article is that the \"exec\" has so much faith in his statements that he didn\'t want his identity revealed. We can\'t even be sure the author actually quoted any real person. If there are actual NFL execs quetioning how the Saints are handling this situation, surely one of them would have the \"balls\" to identify himself. Since he did not, his opinion means \"diddly poo\" to me.

Note, however, that just because I question the veracity of the source doesn\'t mean I admit the facts as presented by the source. I\'m not saying the exec is out to get the Saints. I\'m saying it\'s easy to make comments that you don\'t have to stand behind.

Don\'t take that as an admission that the exec is right either because the exec is flatly wrong in his logical conclusions of what is taking place here. The article is about two things:

1. That Horn is playing the Saints into increasing his salary by threatening to hold out and will succeed because Saints management doesn\'t have the balls to stand up to him; and

2. That if he succeeds, then other players are likely to follow his lead and want pay raises prior to the expiration or near-expiration of their contracts.

Addressing point 1: Horn has been promised a contract that will pay him a value more equal to the value he has been to the Saints. That aside, the Saints have shown that they are willing to pay the players that they think are worth it and will let go those who aren\'t worth paying. Knight is a good example because he\'d still be a Saint if the Saints had offered him TJ \'s money. Glover is another. Again, the player wanted more than the Saints wanted to pay so he\'s gone. This clearly indicates that the Saints aren\'t going to be held hostage to somebody\'s contract demands unless they want to be. It\'s not about whether the Saints have the balls to stand up to Horn, it\'s about the Saints paying the players they want to keep - especially when that player was previously promised a new contract. I say it takes bigger balls to let your pro bowl players go when they want too much rather than keep them. The Saints have proven they\'ll let them go.

Addressing point 2: Using Deuce as an example of a player who might take Joe\'s actions as precedent setting is a wholly erroneous view because the two situations are completely different. A) Joe was promised a new deal; B) Joe has performed at pro bowl level for three straight years. By the time Deuce does that his contract will be up for renewal anyway; C) Deuce already has a better leverage position than Joe because he doesn\'t have a 1st round pick waiting behind him to take his job, as Joe does.

I brought up AB because the article said the Saints aren\'t showing any \"balls, again.\" I couldn\'t think of another player who might have used his value to the Saints against the organization by holding out other than Brooks ( I\'m talking about recent history). I assumed that is what the article was referring to but I could be wrong.

Don\'t get me wrong. I would rather under pay than over pay. If Joe hadn\'t been promised a new deal, then I\'d say let him hold out if he wants to risk Stallworth taking the #1 spot. At the same time, I want the Saints to keep their players happy as best they can and paying a proven star and leader isn\'t a bad way of doing that.

scotty

Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!
 

Well, I said I wasn\'t going to go back and read posts that I had missed, but I read this one and the second I saw it I had to wade into this sh-t-storm... especially since GATOR popped into my head about three words in and I knew he would get destroyed for siding with this loon.

I have a couple of initial thoughts... A - why are these \"executives\" unnamed? Why do people always think the Spokesman is lying but the unidentified soure is honest? That\'s always confused me. I don\'t know anything about the author of this article, but I have no reason to give him the slightest amount of credit or believe he could pick an NFL \"exec\" out of a lineup. Sounds like total crap to me.

Next - as we move on from the author\'s credibility to the merits of the argument we only sink deeper into a pit of poo. Big-time players almost always get new contracts while under contract. ESPECIALLY, when that player has broken out, like say, I don\'t know, Joe Horn, Aaron Brooks, Deuce McAllister... etc. What are you going to do? Tell a guy who is in the top five in the NFC at his position (DEUCE, BROOKS, HORN) that he has to just serve out his contract b/c hey, he signed it? Yeah, that\'s a great plan. I\'m sure he\'ll come rushing back to you when his contract is actually up. All those Draftees you love Gator wouldn\'t be around very long if they started playing like pro bowlers in their second years and we kept paying them like second stringers b/c \"hey, you signed the contract\". Think about what you\'re saying Gator. I know your opinion on Horn, but think about this argument. Sure you\'d get great value for a guy like Horn right now and you would effectively assure yourself of never keeping a great player or signing a free agent ever again... b/c who wants to play in a place where you don\'t get rewarded for superior performance?

Ask yourself this. If you began to do much better work at your job, would you expect a promotion? Would you expect more money? Or would you be OK with your boss telling you, \"hey you knew what the job paid when you signed on. It doesn\'t matter how much better you are than everyone else around here, you\'re getting what you agreed to when you walked in the door.\"