Brilliant View of the Horn Situation!

SFinAustin · 04-19-2003, 12:58 PM

I got this from profootballtalk.com and it makes perfect sense!

HORN PLAYS THE SAINTS

Several NFL personnel execs have opined to us that receiver Joe Horn is playing the Saints, just like quarterback Aaron Brooks did last year, when his decision to stay away from training camp got him a new contract.

Per these sources, the Saints likely will fold in the face of Horn's threats to stay away from voluntary (and involuntary) offseason workouts.

Said one exec, "The Saints front office is showing that they have no balls, again."

The other concern around the league is that Horn is a "bad guy" off the field, and that if he gets paid like one of the top receivers in the game, he won't live up to it.

Regardless of whether Horn actually earns his money, we think that the Saints are setting a dangerous precedent, which will invite their best players to continue to force the team to renegotiate contracts too early by threatening to breach their current deals, with no consequence.

Really, if the Saints don't take a stand with Horn, the next guy to try this tack might be Deuce McAllister. And if they cave to Deuce, someone else will give it a shot down the road.

Sure, it's hard to sacrifice the presence in the short-term of one of your top players. But giving in to one guy's demands sets a bad, bad precedent, which can create ongoing disruptions for years.

They are right about the Deuce part!

FWtex · 04-19-2003, 02:02 PM

I say those other execs should keep their nose in their own house. I agree with players finishing out their current contracts as they are written but in Horns situation he was asked by management to restructure his contract with a promise to renogotiate again this year.

Every team that wants to keep a player from going into free agency renogotiates contracts early. Maybe this exec is hoping to get sour Horn so next year he can bring him to play for his team.

my opinion

ScottyRo · 04-19-2003, 02:25 PM

What an amazingly ignorant article. The \"exec\" referred to must be some 19 year old college intern because this person has absolutely no idea of how the Saints operate.

Sure AB did and Horn will get their new contracts and both threatened to hold out in the process, but Mueller and now Loomis have shown that they\'re not afraid of letting players go that want more money than management thinks they are worth. The list of exmples of this is long, indeed: Johnson, Glover, Knight, Clemons, to name a few. Further, if a player is going to be a distraction, out that player goes too. (Turley, Williams).

So the Saints have decided to pay certain players to keep them here. What\'s wrong with that? It\'s not like Saints players created the word \"Hold-out\" or were the first to use it in the NFL. It is simply a negotiation tool.

As far as whether Deuce will try this...If he plays as well as he did last year and decides his value to the Saints is above his salary, then let him try to get a new contract. There\'s nothing wrong with keeping your star players happy.

[Edited on 19/4/2003 by ScottyRo]

saint5221 · 04-19-2003, 06:22 PM

The money Horn and the Saints are talking about is fair compensation for the work Horn does and the results he gets on the field. I have no promblem with this deal. As for the message it sends the players, how about this teams will be just and pay a player if his preformance exceeds his contract, not a bad message to send at all.

[Edited on 4/19/2003 by saint5221]

D_it_up · 04-19-2003, 10:37 PM

That \"exec\" needs his BALLS cut off and stuffed in his mouth to shut him up. It\'s just another case of the man trying to keep us down. Anyone who can take pot shots on the Saints will do so, because no one respects the franchise. Then again, when their franchise does something stupid, or one of their players act like idiots (i.e. Randy Moss), then they get defensive when their player is talked about. If they don\'t like the way the Saints\' organization negotiates, then F\' em.

D_it_up · 04-20-2003, 11:15 AM

Actually, I still wouldn\'t agree with it. They act like the Saints is the only team where this scenario happens. When the superstars of the a team aren\'t happy, then they show it by holding out. Hell, there have been MANY times when people who WEREN\'T superstars held out. It\'s not just with the Saints, it\'s with EVERY team. The only way I wouldn\'t agree with it is if the player wasn\'t of the caliber of a Joe Horn. Let\'s say Michael Hawthorne held out of camp, because he\'s wanting an outrageous salary for someone who hasn\'t proven himself. O.K.? See ya, Michael. You\'re only hurting yourself. Are you hurting the team? Not really. Next scenario. Darren Howard. The guy blows up in his rookie season and shows the potential to be an elite DE in the league. The next couple of years\' stats are supbar from his rookie season, but it\'s not from his lack of trying or that he isn\'t working hard. You can only be as good as your team around you. Should we break the bank on re-signing him? No. This is when the hardest negotiating tactics should come in. You\'ve got a guy that has the capability of dominating a game defensively, but hasn\'t completely shown it yet. Find a happy medium for both parties and move on. One more? Let\'s say that Deuce McAllister is closing in on the end of his contract and wants an extension. Deuce has led the NFC in rushing and been to the Pro Bowl in his SECOND SEASON. I\'m not saying give the guy all the riches of heaven, but pay the man for what he has and very well can accomplish in the future. Joe Horn is NO DIFFERENT. He was promised an extension for re-working his contract. Sure he was mouthing off that he\'d hold out if he didn\'t get it. Wouldn\'t you be a little upset if you felt a boss was going back on his word after promising you a promotion, but was taking his time getting around to it? I know I would. Joe is a proven Pro-Bowler. Once again, I\'m not saying pay the guy the riches of heaven, but just make the guy happy so he\'ll play some football....FOR US. I\'m sure that ANY NFL TEAM would jump on the chance of paying him if it was within their boundaries of the salary cap. I don\'t see what the Saints organization does for negotiating tactics as any different than any other team. That\'s just my opinion on it. As far as missing it totally? I think I\'m hitting the nail right on the head.

JOESAM2002 · 04-20-2003, 11:40 AM

I\'m not sure that in this day of free agency that anything in this post is right. If it\'s true, why is Sammy Knight having such a hard time finding someone to pay him what he thinks he is worth? Everyone that\'s been on this board for any lenght of time knows I\'m a Sammy Knight fan, but it looks to me like he screwed the pooch on this one. Looks like no team is going to pay him what he wants.

I also know that some will say this situation is completely different but Sammy is as good at his position as Horn is at his.
i think Joe is just doing something that I have always tried to do myself.
\" Cover your ass before someone covers it for you.\"

rusta · 04-20-2003, 11:56 AM

unfortunately i agree with gator, i think this article has some validity, i have heard nothing but bad things about horn and his off-field life, AB absolutely deserved to hold out since he was making league minimum and wanted a deal before he became a free agent and was tempted by money to move elsewhere, horn has been putting up the numbers and was promised a new deal but he could be less vocal about certain things, in my honest opinion i think trading horn should have been considered, before you start yelling at your monitor, i know he has put up the numbers and been a key part of this offense but i honestly believe once he gets his money his play will fall off, i believe he deserves the money but wish he was getting it from somewhere else because i doubt his commitment, he is one of the few players left from the \'old\' saints who are disgruntled with the way the team has dealt with veteran players, after seeing what teams paid fro price and coles we could have gotten a king\'s ransom for horn

LordOfEntropy · 04-20-2003, 01:22 PM

Now I know this will upset people, but I\'ll speak my (humble) opinion anyway. I believe Joe has earned that cash, in spite of his existing contract.

I can\'t remember when I was this excited about the Saints offense - ever. If you look back through all the years, it was always defense, defense, defense, then the O lets down. Well, I believe that Joe is the key person that helped to change that for really the first time in franchise history.

So... if any other players want to step up blow out existing franchise records on a consistent basis, then let them. And give them something special for a special job.

Pay him.

saint5221 · 04-20-2003, 03:37 PM

Actually Gator I don\'t like Horn I find his arrogance and cocky demeanor hard to watch, I wish he showed more class and less trash. I cannot however, find any falt with the absolut effort and results this guy acheives every game. Before you crucify Horn and say he is \" the one f---ing this team.\" ,consider this is life in football now. It would be great for the Saints if he played out his contract honored his original deal. But do the Saint or any other team respond in like kind? Absolutly not, If a players production slips the team will renegotiate his contract or cut him. I am not looking the other way I\'m looking at a tough buisness where both sides are looking out for there own best intrests, its an adversarial system and not just in N.O. Horn goes out and plays hard and produces I\'m ok with paying for preformance and dumping lack of. If someones production is in the top ten his pay should be to. The numbers Horn is putting up make a contract extension of 3 years and more money fair. I want to see the Saints win, Joe Horn helps us do that . Obviously only keep him if the salary demands are not exorbitant but we have a league full of contracts to help establish that. The numbers being tossed around now seem in line. This is not one player holding a team hostage, it is NFL football today. The Saint are not showing a lack of balls they are just playing the game.

04-19-2003, 12:58 PM	#1
SFinAustin 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! I got this from profootballtalk.com and it makes perfect sense! HORN PLAYS THE SAINTS Several NFL personnel execs have opined to us that receiver Joe Horn is playing the Saints, just like quarterback Aaron Brooks did last year, when his decision to stay away from training camp got him a new contract. Per these sources, the Saints likely will fold in the face of Horn's threats to stay away from voluntary (and involuntary) offseason workouts. Said one exec, "The Saints front office is showing that they have no balls, again." The other concern around the league is that Horn is a "bad guy" off the field, and that if he gets paid like one of the top receivers in the game, he won't live up to it. Regardless of whether Horn actually earns his money, we think that the Saints are setting a dangerous precedent, which will invite their best players to continue to force the team to renegotiate contracts too early by threatening to breach their current deals, with no consequence. Really, if the Saints don't take a stand with Horn, the next guy to try this tack might be Deuce McAllister. And if they cave to Deuce, someone else will give it a shot down the road. Sure, it's hard to sacrifice the presence in the short-term of one of your top players. But giving in to one guy's demands sets a bad, bad precedent, which can create ongoing disruptions for years. They are right about the Deuce part!
SFinAustin 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176

04-19-2003, 02:02 PM	#2
FWtex 100th Post Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 370	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! I say those other execs should keep their nose in their own house. I agree with players finishing out their current contracts as they are written but in Horns situation he was asked by management to restructure his contract with a promise to renogotiate again this year. Every team that wants to keep a player from going into free agency renogotiates contracts early. Maybe this exec is hoping to get sour Horn so next year he can bring him to play for his team. my opinion
FWtex 100th Post Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 370

04-19-2003, 02:25 PM	#3
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! What an amazingly ignorant article. The \"exec\" referred to must be some 19 year old college intern because this person has absolutely no idea of how the Saints operate. Sure AB did and Horn will get their new contracts and both threatened to hold out in the process, but Mueller and now Loomis have shown that they\'re not afraid of letting players go that want more money than management thinks they are worth. The list of exmples of this is long, indeed: Johnson, Glover, Knight, Clemons, to name a few. Further, if a player is going to be a distraction, out that player goes too. (Turley, Williams). So the Saints have decided to pay certain players to keep them here. What\'s wrong with that? It\'s not like Saints players created the word \"Hold-out\" or were the first to use it in the NFL. It is simply a negotiation tool. As far as whether Deuce will try this...If he plays as well as he did last year and decides his value to the Saints is above his salary, then let him try to get a new contract. There\'s nothing wrong with keeping your star players happy. [Edited on 19/4/2003 by ScottyRo]

04-19-2003, 06:22 PM	#4
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! The money Horn and the Saints are talking about is fair compensation for the work Horn does and the results he gets on the field. I have no promblem with this deal. As for the message it sends the players, how about this teams will be just and pay a player if his preformance exceeds his contract, not a bad message to send at all. [Edited on 4/19/2003 by saint5221]
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598

04-19-2003, 10:37 PM	#5
D_it_up Faqda Falcons Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ruston, Louisiana Posts: 3,465 Blog Entries: 3	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! That \"exec\" needs his BALLS cut off and stuffed in his mouth to shut him up. It\'s just another case of the man trying to keep us down. Anyone who can take pot shots on the Saints will do so, because no one respects the franchise. Then again, when their franchise does something stupid, or one of their players act like idiots (i.e. Randy Moss), then they get defensive when their player is talked about. If they don\'t like the way the Saints\' organization negotiates, then F\' em.

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04-20-2003, 11:15 AM	#6
D_it_up Faqda Falcons Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ruston, Louisiana Posts: 3,465 Blog Entries: 3	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! Actually, I still wouldn\'t agree with it. They act like the Saints is the only team where this scenario happens. When the superstars of the a team aren\'t happy, then they show it by holding out. Hell, there have been MANY times when people who WEREN\'T superstars held out. It\'s not just with the Saints, it\'s with EVERY team. The only way I wouldn\'t agree with it is if the player wasn\'t of the caliber of a Joe Horn. Let\'s say Michael Hawthorne held out of camp, because he\'s wanting an outrageous salary for someone who hasn\'t proven himself. O.K.? See ya, Michael. You\'re only hurting yourself. Are you hurting the team? Not really. Next scenario. Darren Howard. The guy blows up in his rookie season and shows the potential to be an elite DE in the league. The next couple of years\' stats are supbar from his rookie season, but it\'s not from his lack of trying or that he isn\'t working hard. You can only be as good as your team around you. Should we break the bank on re-signing him? No. This is when the hardest negotiating tactics should come in. You\'ve got a guy that has the capability of dominating a game defensively, but hasn\'t completely shown it yet. Find a happy medium for both parties and move on. One more? Let\'s say that Deuce McAllister is closing in on the end of his contract and wants an extension. Deuce has led the NFC in rushing and been to the Pro Bowl in his SECOND SEASON. I\'m not saying give the guy all the riches of heaven, but pay the man for what he has and very well can accomplish in the future. Joe Horn is NO DIFFERENT. He was promised an extension for re-working his contract. Sure he was mouthing off that he\'d hold out if he didn\'t get it. Wouldn\'t you be a little upset if you felt a boss was going back on his word after promising you a promotion, but was taking his time getting around to it? I know I would. Joe is a proven Pro-Bowler. Once again, I\'m not saying pay the guy the riches of heaven, but just make the guy happy so he\'ll play some football....FOR US. I\'m sure that ANY NFL TEAM would jump on the chance of paying him if it was within their boundaries of the salary cap. I don\'t see what the Saints organization does for negotiating tactics as any different than any other team. That\'s just my opinion on it. As far as missing it totally? I think I\'m hitting the nail right on the head.
	People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.

04-20-2003, 11:40 AM	#7
JOESAM2002 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: CRYSTAL BEACH TEXAS Posts: 4,100	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! I\'m not sure that in this day of free agency that anything in this post is right. If it\'s true, why is Sammy Knight having such a hard time finding someone to pay him what he thinks he is worth? Everyone that\'s been on this board for any lenght of time knows I\'m a Sammy Knight fan, but it looks to me like he screwed the pooch on this one. Looks like no team is going to pay him what he wants. I also know that some will say this situation is completely different but Sammy is as good at his position as Horn is at his. i think Joe is just doing something that I have always tried to do myself. \" Cover your ass before someone covers it for you.\"
	Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt!!!!! "Every time you think, you weaken the nation!" Moe Howard...The Three Stooges.

04-20-2003, 11:56 AM	#8
rusta 100th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 361	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! unfortunately i agree with gator, i think this article has some validity, i have heard nothing but bad things about horn and his off-field life, AB absolutely deserved to hold out since he was making league minimum and wanted a deal before he became a free agent and was tempted by money to move elsewhere, horn has been putting up the numbers and was promised a new deal but he could be less vocal about certain things, in my honest opinion i think trading horn should have been considered, before you start yelling at your monitor, i know he has put up the numbers and been a key part of this offense but i honestly believe once he gets his money his play will fall off, i believe he deserves the money but wish he was getting it from somewhere else because i doubt his commitment, he is one of the few players left from the \'old\' saints who are disgruntled with the way the team has dealt with veteran players, after seeing what teams paid fro price and coles we could have gotten a king\'s ransom for horn
rusta 100th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 361

04-20-2003, 01:22 PM	#9
LordOfEntropy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 1,838	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! Now I know this will upset people, but I\'ll speak my (humble) opinion anyway. I believe Joe has earned that cash, in spite of his existing contract. I can\'t remember when I was this excited about the Saints offense - ever. If you look back through all the years, it was always defense, defense, defense, then the O lets down. Well, I believe that Joe is the key person that helped to change that for really the first time in franchise history. So... if any other players want to step up blow out existing franchise records on a consistent basis, then let them. And give them something special for a special job. Pay him.
	can anyone help me id this tune? it goes thwap thwap boom tch boom tch boom tch. Qui a laissez sortir les chiens!

04-20-2003, 03:37 PM	#10
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Brilliant View of the Horn Situation! Actually Gator I don\'t like Horn I find his arrogance and cocky demeanor hard to watch, I wish he showed more class and less trash. I cannot however, find any falt with the absolut effort and results this guy acheives every game. Before you crucify Horn and say he is \" the one f---ing this team.\" ,consider this is life in football now. It would be great for the Saints if he played out his contract honored his original deal. But do the Saint or any other team respond in like kind? Absolutly not, If a players production slips the team will renegotiate his contract or cut him. I am not looking the other way I\'m looking at a tough buisness where both sides are looking out for there own best intrests, its an adversarial system and not just in N.O. Horn goes out and plays hard and produces I\'m ok with paying for preformance and dumping lack of. If someones production is in the top ten his pay should be to. The numbers Horn is putting up make a contract extension of 3 years and more money fair. I want to see the Saints win, Joe Horn helps us do that . Obviously only keep him if the salary demands are not exorbitant but we have a league full of contracts to help establish that. The numbers being tossed around now seem in line. This is not one player holding a team hostage, it is NFL football today. The Saint are not showing a lack of balls they are just playing the game.
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598