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SHELL ON BROOKS:

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; It is beyond me as to why some people can't understand why AB was disliked by so many. To me, it is extemely obvious. He just had a way of rubbing fans the wrong way. It is true that Archie, ...

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Old 03-30-2006, 02:11 AM   #21
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It is beyond me as to why some people can't understand why AB was disliked by so many. To me, it is extemely obvious. He just had a way of rubbing fans the wrong way. It is true that Archie, Bobby, and the rest made mistakes too. All of those guys were capable of taking responsibility for losses or mistakes, whether it was justified or not...a characteristic that a good QB must have to be a leader. They rarely, if ever, called out anyone. It is not about the mistakes, IMO, but more the way he handled them.

I have one parting comment. AB did not lead Archie in ALL stats. The stat for probowl appearances was Archie-2...AB-0. The stat for NFC MVP was Archie-1...AB-0. I do give AB credit for being the only QB to lead the Saints to that playoff win that he rode for 5 years after, but it would have had more meaning to me if he had been the starter from the beginning of the season.
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:09 AM   #22
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Hey LB, good to se ya dewd

Update reading this thread made my stomach sour this morning.


I was glad to at least read this acknowledgement-
but yet he's the most hated Saint of all time
I suppose you could be infatuated with AB if you only examined his stats (less fumbles and redzone deficiency)and never saw him play. Anybody old enough to remember Dave Kingman with 442 lifetime homers? That is about top 30 alltime. He was a bum. Leon could make a spectacular play on occasion. For everyone of those there were multipled number of bonehead mistakes.

I have lived through the travails of every saint QB. Archie was indeed THE great quarterback on some absolutely dreadful teams. His records were only surpassed because of the rule changes that increased passes by at least 10 more per game than of that era.

I think most wanted to see the AB threads fade away because the memories are so bitter and vile. What some might call sour grapes, the majority here calls the ugly truth. You are no more forced to face that than we are such absolute bullsh!t to the contrary. I'll "refraim" my comments any damn way I choose because I am a full fedged team supporter.

Ed Hargett sucked. Bobby Douglass sucked. Dave Wilson sucked. Steve Walsh sucked. Heath Shuler sucked. Aaron Brooks sucked, maybe not as bad but for much longer. Todd Bouman still sucks. I am Saints family. I can criticize my family cuz I love them so much. I don't hate them, just what they did or didn't do. I have had to get my teenage son out of some ugly situations for things I did hate to see him do. My love for him was never diminished by those choices though. Sometimes I have had to enact some tough love in the process. True love (and like fan allegiance) is not carte blanche support no matter what they do. I wanted to see AB succeed in our NO family. He kept making so many bad decisions when given chance after chance that I am glad to see him gone. Excusing HIS all too obvious mistakes and blaming others is not dissimilar to the drug addicts mantra of coming from a dysfunctional family, lack of education, or not being given a fair opportunity, etc.

I WILL hate any team members poor play whether throwing an interception, fumbling or otherwise. I will still support them though. That is until such play becomes regular, accepted, or in anyway an ongoing detriment to the whole team. At that time I will call for trading or releasing him.

I do think it is better to try and wipe the slate clean of the Haz/Leon love affair era. The carte blanche supporters will find little support from veterans here. I like the thought of that rancor dying out. If such repugnance surfaces though I do have to spit it out.
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:37 AM   #23
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Oh, I forgot...
I hate erroneous statements stated as fact-
7-0 start? When was that? Must be counting some preseason games.

I remember more the 2001 0-4 finish being outscored 52-160. Maybe it was the 2002 3-1 start? I remember more the 0-3 finish against three of the worst teams in the league and needing only one win to make the playoffs. Couldn't have been the 2003 1-4 start averaging only 17 pts scored (most against the expansion Texans. Certainly not the 2004 4-8 start. Damn that tease finish that kept Haz/Leon around for one more year. We know the 2005 2-8 start. 7-0 when? Jeff Blake did have that 6-0 run in 2000 but that was in the middle of the season not the start.
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:48 AM   #24
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Google "Archie Manning sucks" and "Aaron Brooks sucks".

Brooks kicks butt and wins! 172-17
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Old 03-30-2006, 11:06 AM   #25
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It was the year after we got rid of Ricky. We had both Turley and Bentely and a solid OL. Kelly, I stand corrected.. we did start 6-1 that year and were #1 in the NFL power ratings. Brooks was great in that period beating Tampa Bay twice in their superbowl run. We won a lot of games because of Brooks, the running game and having great pass protection. It was the DEFENSE that couldn't stop anyones running game that led to the demise of that season. Teams figured out that the best way to beat the Saints was to run the football and keep the football out of the hands of Brooks.

Brooks threw for 3500 yards, 27 tds and 15 ints. Duece ran for 1300 yards and caught another 325. Horn had a great year with over 1300 yards.


A look back at the 2002 season - what might have been.

Jan. 6 - Saints concluded 2001 season with 7-9 mark; Feb. 9 - S Sammy Knight and DT La'Roi Glover started in the Pro Bowl; March 7 - Owner Tom Benson announced that he will start an Arena Football League team, the New Orleans VooDoo; March 8 - Saints traded RB Ricky Williams to the Miami Dolphins for a first-round selection in the 2002 draft and a conditional third-round selection in 2003 (upgraded to a first-round pick in 2003 based on Williams' performance); March 26 - Saints traded T William Roaf to the Kansas City Chiefs for a conditional 4th round pick in the 2003 draft (upgraded to a third-round pick in 2003 with Roaf's playing time); April 20 - Saints picked Tennessee WR Donte' Stallworth with their first selection in the NFL draft; May 9 - Saints released General Manager of Football Operations Randy Mueller from his contract; May 13 - Saints promoted Mickey Loomis to General Manager of Football Operations from Director of Football Administration; Aug. 7 - Signed Coach Jim Haslett to a multi-year contract extension; Sept. 7- Signed QB Aaron Brooks to a six-year contract extension; Sept. 22 - Saints charge back from 20-point deficit vs. Bears at Memorial Stadium in Champaign, Ill. QB Aaron Brooks tossed three TDs in the final three quarters, including a 29-yard scoring toss to WR Donte' Stallworth with 1:11 remaining that proved to be the game-winner. The victory was the 20th of Coach Jim Haslett's coaching career; Sept. 29 - WR Donte' Stallworth became the first rookie in 20 years to catch a touchdown in his first four NFL games; Oct. 13 - At Washington, WR Michael Lewis became the seventh player in NFL history - and the first in team record books - to return a punt and a kickoff for a touchdown in the same game. His 286 return yards vs. the Redskins ranked as the second-highest in Saints history. Lewis was named NFC Special Teams Player of the Week for his efforts in the 43-27 victory; Oct. 20 - Saints improve to 6-1 with 35-27 win over San Francisco in the Superdome. In the win over the 49ers, QB Aaron Brooks passed for three touchdowns and ran for another and was named NFC Offensive Player of the Week. Five of New Orleans' first six victories came over playoff teams from 2001; Dec. 8 - WR Donte' Stallworth hauls in a 28-yard touchdown at Baltimore, giving him a team rookie-record seven scoring catches for the seasn. He finishes the year with eight; Dec. 29 - RB Deuce McAllister rushed for 117 yards on 28 carries in finale vs. Carolina, his eighth 100-yard performance of the season (second-most in club history to the nine RB George Rogers posted in 1981) ... WR Michael Lewis finished the season with an NFL-record 2,432 yards of combined kickoff and punt return yardage. Lewis posted 1,807 yards in kickoff returns and 625 yards in punt returns - both team records ... K John Carney finished the year with a team-record 130 points. He also tied a team mark with 31 field goals, pulling even with K Morten Andersen's total in 1985 ... Saints conclude 2002 season at 9-7.

HEY... MAYBE LOSING MUELLER HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE WHOLE TEAM'S DEMISE. From there on the teams success seemed to fall apart. Since then special teams play has been in decline too. In fact, the whole team started to decline.

Brooks followed up 2003 with the following stats.... 3500+ yards, 24 TDS and 8 Ints.... he did lose something like 8 fumbles that year. Brooks's demise (seems to me) followed poor defense that led to constantly being behind and poor OL play. It magnified his weaknesses and swallowed his strengths. The guy gave us some pretty good games too with 26 come from behind victories to his credit despite Venturi's defense.

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Old 03-30-2006, 11:26 AM   #26
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Brooks was great in that period beating Tampa Bay twice in their superbowl run. We won a lot of games because of Brooks, the running game and having great pass protection.

This is one of the main reasons people hate Aaron Brooks. When we were winning, it was all him. When we were losing, it was everyone's fault but his. Next bad aaron Brooks argument please......

Did you know this great 2003 you keep bragging on Brooks led the leaguein lost fumbles? Think that had anything to do with us being 8-8, while Deuce and LeCharles were going to the pro bowl?
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Old 03-30-2006, 11:54 AM   #27
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That was 11 fumbles lost not 8. 14 total fumbles in 2003. 51 fumbles in the four full years starting. Don't get into WHEN in the games or WHAT the field position of those fumbles were.

I do agree the loss of Mueller was a negative to the entire organization. That had nothing to do with the on the field performance of the qb though. Anybody can win on a talented enough team. Being a Superbowl winning QB did not make Trent Dilfer an All-Pro. Plenty of truly good QBs on poor teams do make the Pro Bowl however (such as McNair in 2005). Brooks performance was only affected by the defense in how the game play calls changed. Jurgensen, Tarkenton, Fouts and Marino led Hall of Fame offenses on teams whose offenses were often as bad as the early 00's Saints.

Whodi, how about some Redzone data?
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Old 03-30-2006, 12:01 PM   #28
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Whodi, how about some Redzone data?

Don't get me started, any more than I already am.
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Old 03-30-2006, 12:20 PM   #29
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Lost in these facts is that we had the worst defense in the league in 2003, 2004 and the 2005 stats looked better because we were constantly behind because of the injuries to Deuce and Horn so the other teams offense went in to ball control mode.

I'M NOT SUPPORTING BROOKS... JUST SAYING THAT HE DID PLAY A LOT OF GOOD GAMES TOO. You guys give him no credit for the Saints being a decent team despite the fact the defense stunk worse than anything you can imagine. The offense always played good enough to win in this league and 90% of the losses can be directly attributed to POOR DEFENSE. I for one despise Venturi more than Brooks, yet you guys seem to give him a pass. Brooks played good enough to take us but you can't win without at least a fair defense. No body is addressing that but me.

I think anybody that wants to start a revelant Brooks thread should not be flammed on by all the nay sayers. Just STFU already. Look we all know Brooks short comings... it's just that I prefer to remember the good rather than the bad because he is gone now. It's time to mend wounds and move on. I don't want to get in to an argument on Brooks's carreer because we all bring up valid points. It's too bad that things didn't work out for him here, and I wish him well.

Kelly, the QBs you name never won the big one. Fouts had the best offense ever but no defense. Marino went to the big dance once. Tarkenton went with a good defense and Jurgensen was in a different time. How does this parallel Brooks?? Dude, I respect your point of view. Thanks.

Whodi...This is one of the main reasons people hate Aaron Brooks. When we were winning, it was all him. When we were losing, it was everyone's fault but his. Next bad aaron Brooks argument please......
The game never comes down to one play. NEVER. Sure you can point to one play but who's to say that the offsides penalty, the dropped pass, the missed block, the wrong route run and the defense that couldn't bail out a thimble on so many other plays didn't contribute MORE TO THE LOSS. I've played football for years and I tell you... blaming a loss on one play is wrong. The defense misses 20 plays a game and so we are forced to ask the QB to win the game despite the OL screwing up worse than Brooks. These are facts too guys. Leon can't do it all.

Why can't you guy see that Brooks was an average QB on a crappy team that was in way over his head and asked to win too many games by himself. No he wasn't Marino or Fouts.... few are.

Lighten up guys... your anger will be your undoing.


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Old 03-30-2006, 12:24 PM   #30
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This whole thread is ridiculous. Foreverfan is just pushing his annoying agenda of bringing up AB whenever he can. He can't get over the fact that AB is gone. It's like AB has been messing sh** up so much, that now things have kind of gotten normal, this guy just wants it to be sh**ty again because that's what he's used to. Listen foreverfan, AB does own a lot of records in the Saints annals, but it's not because he's the BEST QB in franchise history. It's because of the era he played in and the good teams that surrounded him. YOu think AB would be anything without guys like Deuce, Horn, Stallworth? No. He's trash. He had some good games because he had Pro Bowl caliber players that he could get the ball to. He had flashes of brilliance, but they were few and far between, and very short lived. The guy is the most hated Saint ever because not only did he blow so many games with his dumb decisions, plays, and fumbles, but also because he seemed to never care. He would smile after blowing the game, smile after throwing an interception, and call out the defense when it was his dumb arse that was losing games. He's a talented QB, but that's as far as it can go. He's not good. He might hold records for passing yards and TDs, I bet he also holds the record for pass attempts, fumbles, and interceptions. Give it up foreverfan, this AB crap is really pissing me off.
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