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Don't under-estimate this win...

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Hey xan, i wasn't excusing the flatness, just noting it. I agree with everything you said. But, sometimes you gotta win on one of your bad days and I tihnk that's what we did yesterday. The playcalling has gotten less ...

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Old 10-09-2006, 01:54 PM   #11
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Hey xan, i wasn't excusing the flatness, just noting it.

I agree with everything you said. But, sometimes you gotta win on one of your bad days and I tihnk that's what we did yesterday.

The playcalling has gotten less interesting. It's almost like Devery is more important than we think he is as far as opening the offense.

We also need to take some shots deep. That is my chief complaint, in addition to the 4 man pass rush point you made.
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Old 10-09-2006, 04:19 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by xan
I'm going to disagree.
... why doesn't that surprise me.

Not going to respond much to you, since you seem to be the perfectionist and all... but I will tell you this, since you pointed out that the Bears have no flaws:
This is Lovie Smith's 3rd season as head coach of the Bears... he's been with his team for 30 months. His first season's record after 5 games? 1-4. His record that year? 5-11.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:26 PM   #13
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Three years ago, when Lovie Smith took over the Bears, he would have considered himself blessed if he had Kyle Orton as his QB, his grandmother at RB, two Somalian AIDS sufferers at WR and the female cast of "Desperate" as his O-line. Payton's got riches that make Bill Gates jealous. Last year's team was considered one of the most talented in the NFL and I think we can claim with certainty that the 2006 version is far better. So why not adjust the comparison to similar teams? I'm not disagreeing that it takes time to build a winner. I'm saying that the pieces are there to compete at the highest level and that lowering expectations based on some other team's disasterous situation builds an implicit but unjustified case for losing. I'd rather hold to a higher standard and possibly fail than hold to a lower standard and definitely fail. There's no reason that the 2006 Saints and the 2006 Bears shouldn't be equally feared as (IMO) there is a comparable level of talent on both sides of the ball. Attitude and desire seem to be the only thing separating them.

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Old 10-10-2006, 12:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by xan
go, when Lovie Smith took over the Bears, he would have considered himself blessed if he had Kyle Orton as his QB, his grandmother at RB, two Somalian AIDS sufferers at WR and the female cast of "Desperate" as his O-line.
You are soooo full of it.

Care to see a list of starters in this 2006 flawless edition of the Chicago Bears who where in the Bears roster in 2003, i.e., Lovie Smith inherited? I thought you would...not gonna bother with 2nd teams, just starters...

OFFENSE
Rex Grossman QB
Desmond Clark TE
Olin Kreutz C
Ian Scott RT
Ruben Brown OG
Jason McKie FB

DEFENSE
Brian Urlacher LB
Hunter Hillenmeyer LB
Lance Briggs LB
Mike Brown SS
Charles Tillman CB
Alex Brown DE

ST
Brad Maynard P
Patrick Mannelly LS


Care to know who Lovie picked before the 2004 season who are staring in the flawless 2006 Bears edition? I thought you would.

Thomas Jones RB
Bernard Berrian WR
Nathan Vasher CB
Adewale Ogunleye DE

Last year's team was considered one of the most talented in the NFL
By whom? QB? TE? LB? O-line? DB? S? ST? COACHING?

Now, pay attention, because it gets complicated...

The aforementioned players are all starters in the flawless 2006 Chicago Bears who are 5-0 today.

YET, the aforementioned players were also in the 2004 Chicago Bears who started the season 1-4 and ended the season 5-11, losing to teams like the 2-14 whiners, 6-10 Lions, 6-10 Dallas Cowboys, the 7-9 Houston Texans, the 5-11 Bucs, the 6-10 Skins, you know, quality teams.

See that? Lots of the same talent in the 2004 Chicago Bears as in 2006 Chicago Bears = 5-11 record in 2004."The pieces were there" in 2004 yet teh Bears stunk up the joint.

.. I wonder what the difference is... could it be 2 seasons of playing together under a good coach?? Nah..

Bottom line, you cannot compare a team that's been playing good for a couple of seasons under a good coach to a team that was just put together.

La neta es chida, pero inalcanzable
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:15 AM   #15
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Let's just look at two players you cite, and you certainly cannot disagree with each's importance to the Bears and compare them to who is starting for the Saints. There may be something to consider in your argument.

Rex Grossman.
7 starts in the three previous seasons with the Bears. His cumulative passer rating for those games was 68.8. I will grant you that he was injured for the better part of two years, but that highlights his inexperience in execution with the current OR ANY offense. Coming into the season, very little was expected of this player, though he was seen as a major upgrade over Kyle Orton if he remained healthy. Grossman was considered a talent coming out of FL, but he was going to be a project. He started the last three games of 2003 after the Bears were mathmatically eliminated from the playoffs, and while winning the first two games, did not distinguish himself before getting injured. The Starter in 2004, again he did not fare well, winning only one of 3 starts while posting a decrease in efficiency before being injured again for the full season. 2005 saw him start the final game of the season, a win against GB after the Bears had clinched their best seeding possible for the playoffs, and again he did not distinguish himself as a starter as he lost the position for the following playoff game (to Kyle Orton, hence my comment from above). Coming into 2006, the Bears were considered to have a good team with a big question at quarterback, both in performance and in health; Brian Griese, a castoff from the Bucs even though he was a proven reliable starter (5-1 before he was injured last season), was brought in to be the starter, but lost out.

So, not playing much and, when playing, not very good was a good indicator for this season, just because he was "around" the system.

Drew Brees.
Pro-Bowl QB in 2004 and one of the highest rated QB's in 2005. Played in a west coast offense system at San Diego, a similar system of which was installed for the Saints in 2006.

Ya think Lovie'd taken Brees in his 1st season? Hell, even this season?

Second player, let's see, hmmm. How about Israel Idonije. Who's he? Well, he's the starter since Ogunleye is injured. By the way, Ogunleye has been a premier pass rusher since before Lovie Smith arrived and even a Pro-Bowler in 2003! - wow, who'd a thunk that there'd be talent at DE when you'd take over a franchise? To get back to Idonije, he's done well since Ogunleye was injured during the 1st quarter of the rout of Seattle.

For the Saints, LDE Charles Grant. Let's just say that these two are pushes. And gosh, look at the similarity of the players, in the League about the same time, same basic reputation, same level of performance before the coaches took over. Oh, Grants' not injured.

Yeah, you're right. I don't compare with your level of knowledge and understanding. I don't know why I try. To even suggest that there are similarities, even advantages, over a team like the Bears, I should be flogged. And worse, to expect that these players actually play to their abilities, shocking. AND MORE, to think that this coaching staff would actually recognize these talents and exploit them? Why, just go on and impale me with your dagger of mediocrity.

Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger."
Hobbes: "Common lament."
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Old 10-10-2006, 11:42 AM   #16
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... spinning wheels...

You said Lovie inherited AIDS patients, his grandmother, 0-line was a bunch of second rated actresses, etc. in 2004. You were WRONG!!!!.

Ogun? Yeah, came into the Bears in 2004. Is on my list of the 2004 Bears who went 5-11. Your point?

Idonije is a backup, and I didn't go into the backups, and still, he came into the Bears in 2004 and was part of the Bears team who went 5-11 in 2004. Your point again?

Drew Brees vs Rex Grossman?
Grossman was hurt so that he couldn't play extensively during the past 2 seasons, but he's been in the system for 2 years. It's not like he just stayed home watching cartoons. He was out there in minicamps, training camps, preseasons, and some regular season games, learning the system, learning the plays, throwing passes, learning the routes, getting a rapport with his center, etc... Brees is in a new system altogether with new coaches playing with guys he's never played before. Yeah, Brees is a probowler and all that good stuff... maybe that's a huge part of the 4-1 start?

But why did you stop there?

How about LB's? This season being their 4th starting together and all? 3rd under Lovie? Saints LB's in 2005? In 2006?

So you think the Saints are as talented as the Bears. Ok. Talent means nothing. Talent is a capacity for achieving, not a guarantee of achievement, as our past QB amply demonstrated.

So, stop embarrasing yourself. I don't know if you just want to be a stick in the mud or really just talking out the sphincter, or all of the sudden developed Billytis.

Next!

Originally Posted by xan
Let's just look at two players you cite, and you certainly cannot disagree with each's importance to the Bears and compare them to who is starting for the Saints. There may be something to consider in your argument.

Rex Grossman.
7 starts in the three previous seasons with the Bears. His cumulative passer rating for those games was 68.8. I will grant you that he was injured for the better part of two years, but that highlights his inexperience in execution with the current OR ANY offense. Coming into the season, very little was expected of this player, though he was seen as a major upgrade over Kyle Orton if he remained healthy. Grossman was considered a talent coming out of FL, but he was going to be a project. He started the last three games of 2003 after the Bears were mathmatically eliminated from the playoffs, and while winning the first two games, did not distinguish himself before getting injured. The Starter in 2004, again he did not fare well, winning only one of 3 starts while posting a decrease in efficiency before being injured again for the full season. 2005 saw him start the final game of the season, a win against GB after the Bears had clinched their best seeding possible for the playoffs, and again he did not distinguish himself as a starter as he lost the position for the following playoff game (to Kyle Orton, hence my comment from above). Coming into 2006, the Bears were considered to have a good team with a big question at quarterback, both in performance and in health; Brian Griese, a castoff from the Bucs even though he was a proven reliable starter (5-1 before he was injured last season), was brought in to be the starter, but lost out.

So, not playing much and, when playing, not very good was a good indicator for this season, just because he was "around" the system.

Drew Brees.
Pro-Bowl QB in 2004 and one of the highest rated QB's in 2005. Played in a west coast offense system at San Diego, a similar system of which was installed for the Saints in 2006.

Ya think Lovie'd taken Brees in his 1st season? Hell, even this season?

Second player, let's see, hmmm. How about Israel Idonije. Who's he? Well, he's the starter since Ogunleye is injured. By the way, Ogunleye has been a premier pass rusher since before Lovie Smith arrived and even a Pro-Bowler in 2003! - wow, who'd a thunk that there'd be talent at DE when you'd take over a franchise? To get back to Idonije, he's done well since Ogunleye was injured during the 1st quarter of the rout of Seattle.

For the Saints, LDE Charles Grant. Let's just say that these two are pushes. And gosh, look at the similarity of the players, in the League about the same time, same basic reputation, same level of performance before the coaches took over. Oh, Grants' not injured.

Yeah, you're right. I don't compare with your level of knowledge and understanding. I don't know why I try. To even suggest that there are similarities, even advantages, over a team like the Bears, I should be flogged. And worse, to expect that these players actually play to their abilities, shocking. AND MORE, to think that this coaching staff would actually recognize these talents and exploit them? Why, just go on and impale me with your dagger of mediocrity.

La neta es chida, pero inalcanzable
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Old 10-10-2006, 02:07 PM   #17
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With the mouth of a bell and the heart of Hell and the head of a gallows-tree.

I have more mellifluous prose than Billy, so I'm staying.
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Old 10-11-2006, 04:26 PM   #18
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The reason the Bears took awhile to blossom is injuries. They had a ton of injuries for a stretch of time there, with Grossman always being hurt and especially Urlacher's absence a few years ago. This year their injuries are minimal and the defense especially has all the firepower you could ask for.
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Old 10-11-2006, 05:54 PM   #19
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hEY XAN OR DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKIN ABOUT. 1ST that Bucs max protected all day long they kept thier te in and running backs thats why they couldn't throw the screen which they did try at least 3 times during the game plus tampa had 2weeks to prepare for this game an gave 110% effort to win and didn't yes they were flat at times and yes they get payed alot but they are human not machines and not to say we and I mean me also who sat in the dome we all thought it was going to be a walk over and all of us were flat in the dome and didn't give them much energy. 4 and 1 soon to be 5and 1
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Old 10-11-2006, 08:57 PM   #20
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wow. a dis all in one long sentance. My fragile little mind can't grasp the themes you've woven into that train wreck.

Fact of the matter is that the Saints were fortunate to win the game against the Bucs. 0-4 teams, especially really good ones, seem to shoot themselves in the foot rather than have the other team do that. Dropped balls, false start penalties at the wrong time, poor playcalling (6-11 3/4 and outs) and an inability to contain the edge made this game tough to win. Brees made no throw over 20 yards the entire game. The defense gave up too much run yardage against the worst rushing team in the league. Maybe they were flat, or maybe they're scared, or maybe they got manhandled by a better team who screwed themselves. You only get one of these kind of wins in a season. Rest assured that McNabb, McNair, and in 4 weeks Gradkowski again will figure out the defense's weaknesses exposed in this game while the Reid's and Billick's will rip apart this increasingly timid offense.

I'd rather focus on the issues and obstacles to winning by trying to identify them and correct them than stick my head in the sand and fart the team theme song.

Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger."
Hobbes: "Common lament."
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