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BillyCarpenter1 06-18-2003 04:44 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 


Trent Dilfer:
Role Player: player who executes and takes care of assigned responsibilities within the parameters of a given scheme


Aaron Brooks:
Play-Maker: Gifted athlete with the ability and skill to operate outside of the parameters of a given scheme (and therefore make plays as opposed to having plays made for him)


[Edited on 18/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

WhoDat 06-18-2003 05:34 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
You are absolutely right Billy... maybe you read other parts of that article... like this line:

\"A great organization knows how to create the near-perfect balance of speed and savvy, veterans and youngsters — role players and play-makers. \"

So by your comment above, you believe that the Saints do not have enough play-makers on offense already, and thus need one at quarterback... is that it? Deuce, Horn, Stallworth, Pathon, Conwell, Sloan... yeah, that\'s not enough \"play-makers\" we better get one at QB quick!

Look at the Eagles dear boy... look at the Falcons... they NEED a play-maker at QB b/c they don\'t have any other major weapons. Now look at the Rams and Raiders... are you telling me that those teams need a Michael Vick or Donovan McNabb at QB? No, they need \"savvy veterans\"... role players who become stars simply by executing (see Warner and Gannon) - you think they became league MVPs b/c of their sheer physical talent? Go ahead and answer... I\'m really interested to see how many bullets you can put in that foot before it falls off.

BillyCarpenter1 06-18-2003 05:38 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Whodat,

I\'ve been waiting on you so you can respond to this, please?

You said a leader shouldn\'t make mistakes. In 2001 he threw for 36 touchdowns and 22ints. Let me count how many mistakes he made. OH IT WAS 22.


In 2002 he didn\'t play that many games, although he did play when his thumb was hurt and didn\'t want to come out of the game. I remember someone telling me Brooks wasn\'t a leader because he wouldn\'t come out of the game when he was hurt. OH YEAH, THAT WAS YOU. Anyway, the short time he was in there, he made 11 BIG OLE\' MISTAKES, and led his team out of the playoffs.

Now, let me finish this for once and all. You say Brooks is not a leader based on his first 3 years of play in the NFL. Your defiining factor for a leader is completion percentage. You claim that we need to get rid of Books and get a leader like Trent Dilfer (OH MY GOD!!)

Based on your theory, you would have said the samething about John Elway based on his stats I have listed below? OF COURSE NOT.

Because you have a keen sense for what it takes to be a NFL quarterback and you would have known that those were only growing pains and the mistakes would be corrected (i.e., throwing into coverage, scrambling when you should have stayed in the pocket, etc.)

Yes, if you would have been John Elways coach at the begining of his carear, you would have cut him and signed Steve Deburg, who was a great manger of the game, it kept him in the league for many years. But you would have deprived John Elway from getting to the HALL OF FAME, with your thinking.

But I would have let him develop and correct his mistakes. Sure I would have had to put up with the media and fans like WhoDat screaming for me to get rid of Elway. I would not have and what Elway went on to do is my favorite subject...........HISTORY !!!!

John Elway first 3-years.

1985 DEN 16 327 605 3891 54.0 22 23 70.2
1984 DEN 15 214 380 2598 56.3 18 15 76.8
1983 DEN 11 123 259 1663 47.5 7 14 54.9

Oh, and I know you are going to need to save face and say he didn\'t have the talent like Brooks has around him.

To you, I say the Broncos went to the playoffs with Elway as a rookie starter and lost in the first round. Sounds like another QB I know........Aaron Brooks....And a true leader should know what talent he does and does not have, and utilize the talent he does have.

John Elway is the best leader I can think of in the NFl (see The DRIVE) and if you were to call him and ask him if he made

subguy 06-18-2003 06:01 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Elway was a great leader. Any more so than Montana,Young, Favre or Marino?

BillyCarpenter1 06-18-2003 06:08 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
WhoDat,

I will anwser your question like this

While I do beleive role players are a necessary part of any football team. I would not build my football around a role player at quarterback.

Great managers of the game will keep you in some games and will not kill you with mistakes.

However, given the choice between a leader with limited skills (can\'t run) and a quarterback that can operate outside of a system and MAKE PLAYS, I will chose the one that can make plays.

Players that rely on offensive schemes to make plays for them are only successful for a limited time.(i.e. Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, etc..)

While there have been some great QB\'s that were managers of the game, the NFL has changed and a premium has been placed on rushing the passer. Many elaborate defenses have been installed, that make having a quarterback that can run almost necessary.

Offensive schemes are figured out and stopped, but a playmaker has natural ability that cannot be taught and is really tough to defend against, for his whole carear. If a team does decide to designate a \"spy\" for the QB, then just the fact that they have to use a spy, makes that QB a game changer.

I don\'t think that can be said of the type of QB you like.














[Edited on 18/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 18/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

BillyCarpenter1 06-18-2003 06:31 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

So by your comment above, you believe that the Saints do not have enough play-makers on offense already, and thus need one at quarterback... is that it? Deuce, Horn, Stallworth, Pathon, Conwell, Sloan... yeah, that\'s not enough \"play-makers\" we better get one at QB quick!

Can you really ever have enough play makers. Ask yourself that when we play the Falcons this year.

YOUR MAKING THIS TOO EASY........COME ON MAN???

[Edited on 18/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

BillyCarpenter1 06-18-2003 06:44 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

Elway was a great leader. Any more so than Montana,Young, Favre or Marino?
The reason for me comparing Brooks to Elway was to show WhoDat, with his mentality on judging QB\'s, he would have said the samething about Elway, because he really stunk it up his first 3-years and the samethings that he is saying about Brooks, many fans that weren\'t knowledgebale about football, said the samethings of him. But like I said, the rest is HISTORY......

WhoDat 06-19-2003 07:05 AM

For WhoDat !!!
 
A. The more you scream the less credibility you have.

B. So Aaron Brooks \"made more plays\" this year then Gannon? He made more plays this year or last year than Warner did last year. The need to make something out of absolutely nothing comes very rarely on the football field Billy. There are only 3 quarterbacks in the entire league that seem to be able to make something out of nothing very well... Vick, McNabb, and Favre (who does it with his arm). I seriously doubt Aaron will ever have the play making abilities that these guys have. Further, if you want to really be able to make a play, it takes knowledge of the system, knowing where your receivers will be, etc. Aaron doesn\'t have that.

C. I never \"Brooks wasn\'t a leader because he wouldn\'t come out of the game when he was hurt.\" You find where I said that and I will concede this entire argument right now.

But since you brought it up, let\'s talk about this. First, stats like completion percentage and efficiency show what kind of MANAGER a QB is. Compared to the other QBs in the league, last year, Brooks finished in the bottom ten of the league... but I guess that doesn\'t matter.

Leadership is shown by how you act on the field... the way you inspire your teammates and whether or not they look to you when times are tight. If Brooks is such a great leader, why did his own Pro Bowl teammate ask the head coach to take him out of the game at the end of the season?

The only good point that you have made so far is that other QBs have taken three or so years to develop... well by the end of this season, Brooks will have started as many games as guys like Elway - when he was midway through his FOURTH season. Is that enough time for you? When is enough? How long do you realistically think we can keep this talent together? Maybe Brooks will be great in 2010... but will we have any players left or will he be the only decent one? This NFL is VERY different than Elway\'s or Marino\'s or Montana\'s or even Young\'s. It\'s a now-now kind of environment and three years now is like five back then... maybe more based on the turnoever in talent.

BillyCarpenter1 06-19-2003 07:17 AM

For WhoDat !!!
 
WhoDat,

Ok, maybe that wasn\'t you that was talking about Brooks coming out of the game....

Turn over on talent or not, the fact is the QB position is the most diffucult position to learn. More money is invested in the QB position than any other. You bulid your team around the QB.


As far as how much time should be give to Brooks. I think he needs to show improvement this year with his completion percentage and his leadership ability. I\'ve never disagreed with you on those issues.

What I have disagreed with you on is saying that he will never be a leader or manager of the game. Do you know how many fans have said that about some of the all time great QB\'s that have played in this game?


coastalkid 06-19-2003 12:29 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
now , now boys this argument is null and void now that Brooks will be cloned into the next Joe Montana!!!!!! Right????

billyh1026 06-20-2003 08:25 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

You bulid your team around the QB.

Bzzzzzzzzzt...wrong....for instance, the Baltimore - Trent Dilfer lead Super Bowl Champs. There is no way you can succesfully agrue that that team was built around the QB.

And the 1 thing people just don\'t get....leaders either are or they aren\'t. You can\'t MAKE anyone a leader. Ya either got it or ya don\'t.

BillyCarpenter1 06-20-2003 08:48 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

Bzzzzzzzzzt...wrong....for instance, the Baltimore - Trent Dilfer lead Super Bowl Champs. There is no way you can succesfully agrue that that team was built around the QB.

Sure there are cases where a team won a superbowl that didn\'t build the team around a quarterback but if you think that teams don\'t bulild around a QB, tell that to Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Roger Staubach, John Elway, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Payton Manning, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Namith.

Should I go on????????

billyh1026 06-20-2003 09:38 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

Sure there are cases where a team won a superbowl that didn\'t build the team around a quarterback but if you think that teams don\'t bulild around a QB, tell that to Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Roger Staubach, John Elway, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Payton Manning, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Namith.

Should I go on????????
Championship & Championship caliber teams are built around 4 things. 1 very good QB, 1 very good RB, 1 very good WR, and mainly 1 very very good Defense(the 1 exception that comes to mind is the Rams SB team). Ask any of those guys you\'ve named. I merely pointed out that every team isn\'t built around a QB alone. If a team is put together good enough, you can plug a decently efficient QB in and win.

BillyCarpenter1 06-20-2003 09:49 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
There have been more qb\'s drafted #1 than any other position......how do u explain that?

pakowitz 06-20-2003 10:16 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
wrong again billy.......when the rams won the super bowl in 1999 they had the top ranked D in the league.. giving up only 15.8 points per game......... theres the link to prove it....


http://www.spreadwinners.com/Defense/defense.asp

BillyCarpenter1 06-20-2003 10:20 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
pat,

i don\'t think the rams built their team around the defese though.

billyh1026 06-20-2003 10:26 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

There have been more qb\'s drafted #1 than any other position......how do u explain that?
Actually, it\'s 23 QB\'s & 23 RB\'s drafted #1 (the RB\'s were seperated into HB & FB years ago. Don\'t let that throw you off tho. It equals 23.)

BillyCarpenter1 06-20-2003 10:30 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
You can put a spin on it anyway you want.......fact is the QB position is the most important position :mad2: :mad2: on any team


[Edited on 21/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

pakowitz 06-20-2003 11:04 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
how many QBs drafted #1 have won the super bowl?

how many QBs were drafted after the 1st round have won the super bowl?

another thing.. im not saying that the qb isnt important, but this is a TEAM GAME..... with out a decent offensive line.. the qb isnt sheeeeeeeeeet... with out descent receiver.. the qb isnt sheeeeeeeeeet... with out a descent running back... the qb isnt sheeeeeeeeet...

BillyCarpenter1 06-20-2003 11:13 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
You need to type on the left because your not right.

A war is a team game too but I hardly think everyone is equally important in a war.

You need to hurry and edit that post before someone see\'s it.

This discussion was about what position an organization builds a team around, There have been cases where a team bullds around the defensive side of the ball, but history shows that most of the time it\'s a QB.

As far as what poition is the most important on a football team? Ask yourself this question..... If one single player on a team wanted to purposely lose a football game what position would have the most and best opportunities?????

[Edited on 21/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 21/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

billyh1026 06-21-2003 10:35 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

wrong again billy.......when the rams won the super bowl in 1999 they had the top ranked D in the league.. giving up only 15.8 points per game......... theres the link to prove it....

http://www.spreadwinners.com/Defense/defense.asp
I stand corrected. Thanks Pak. You made my case even stronger.
BillyC, there is no spin to it. You said there were more QB\'s drafted #1 than any other position. I just corrected your mistake.
Ditto Pak\'s last post about sheeeeeeeeet.
To answer your question BillyC, is it the Center? He touches the ball as much as anyone. Make a few bad line assignment calls....muff a few snaps and have it blamed on someone else....get bull rushed at opportune times...hmmm..yeah, must be the Center...

BillyCarpenter1 06-22-2003 10:21 AM

For WhoDat !!!
 
billyh1026,

Do you even watch football? With that ridiculous post you just made.....one must wonder..........................

WhoDat 06-23-2003 03:54 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
BC - this discussion is about \"what position an organization builds a team around\"??? And here I thought it was about how to build a winning team... I mean didn\'t you compare Trent Dilfer to Aaron Brooks to call me out after I made point after point that you couldn\'t dispute about a team fitting players to its scheme???

But, if you really want to get into it about the most important player on the field then I say that the middle linebacker is just as important as the QB. In fact, he is the \"qb\" of th defense... and last I checked more teams have won a SB with great defense than great offense.

Oh, and your war analogy... it\'s poo. You see, the QB may be called the \"field general\", but he\'s not. All of the strategy, all of the \"orders\"... they come from the sidelines. THe coaches are the generals... qbs are more like Lieutenants... just as MLBs are...

BillyCarpenter1 06-23-2003 04:00 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Let\'s get to the heart of the matter.............

Every position on the football field is important. I think we can agree on that? The middle linebacker can be an important part of the defense. He can be responsible for many things. However, it could be another position on defense that is responsible for calling the defensive plays.

Now here\'s the important part. On offense the QB is always responsible for making the adjustments. Not the receivers, running backs , tighends, etc...


WhoDat,

We both know you can do better....

lumm0x 06-23-2003 04:16 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Billy and WhoDat, you both bring up lots of good points and arguements. A quick comment I\'d like to throw in that goes back to BillyC\'s original post.....
A football team\'s offense is like an engine, you assemble all of the parts and try to tune it to a perfectly operating machine. First off, you need almost all of the parts to work for the engine to run. Secondly, the QB would be the most important part of this offensive engine.
As the builder of the engine, do you want a part that will operate at a consistent level or do you want an erratic part, capable of record breaking performance at times, and a total inability to operate at others? Consistency is very coachable. You know what you\'ll get and work within that scope. With an erratic QB how can you plan for breakdowns? The only way you can is a capable back-up. How long do you frustrate yourself when you can\'t compete during a breakdown until you stop using that part?

BillyCarpenter1 06-23-2003 04:22 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
LummOx,

I like that.

As far as how long you use and erratic part. When you build an engine, you have to break it in, or in other words, you have to run it so many miles before it performs like it should.

So in quarterback terms about 3yrs or 1,000 miles.

WhoDat 06-23-2003 04:25 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
BS Billy... you\'re talking about publicity vs. importance... who is more important to our team... AB or Deuce? Now whose name is always attached to Saints? Whose face is always shown... ???

Quarterbacks get a LOT of the glory b/c their names get called 100 times a game... that\'s what happens when you touch the ball every play...

The principle is called name recognition... ask anyone in Marketing about it. Is McDonald\'s really a better burger than Wendy\'s? No... but when I say fast food what\'s the first thing that pops into your head? The same is true of football teams. Your brain begins to associate one thing with the other...

Kurt Warner was the MVP of the league... are you really going to tell me that he was MORE important to that team than Faulk was... ever? no way... QBs get a ton of credit b/c when you hear things over and over your brain subconsciously begins to equate hearing it a lot with good. Honestly, I think there are very few quarterbacks that have ever been as good or as important to their team as the hype surrounding them said they were... but that\'s just me...

Yeah, I know that was kind of off topic, but frankly I\'m getting pretty tired of this Brooks debate... hey it only took 6 months for me to tire of it... not bad! ;)

lumm0x 06-23-2003 04:30 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Just like an engine.....it\'s all about balance. A good RB will make a QB better and vise versa. A great running back can get pretty beat up if there is no passing threat.

BillyCarpenter1 06-23-2003 04:32 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Let\'s see if I can get this to sink in.............

The QB has more to think about than any other player on the field. Everything goes through the QB.

It\'s kind of like the CPU in your computer. It\'s the heart and soul of the process.

WhoDat 06-23-2003 04:41 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
In that case the Saints have a Gig of Memory, a 120 Gig 7200 RPM drive, a DVDR, a Flat Screen Monitor... and all of the information is going through our AB 486 processor... HA HA...

Sorry for those of you who have no clue what I just said.

lumm0x 06-23-2003 04:42 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
I\'m agreeing with you that the QB is the most important individual position on a team. You can get by with a less talented but consistent plug here, but you will have trouble with an inconsistent part.

BillyCarpenter1 06-23-2003 04:47 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Pretty Funny...but 486 or not that\'s the way it is. But unlike a CPU that is what it is, a QB can get better, smarter, and faster....

I can understand you frustration with AB, but your being a little hard on the guy.

It\'s fair to single out the QB though, just like it\'s gonna be fair to drill you when AB is taking the Saints to the superbowl this year..

Would you like mustard on your crow????????

lumm0x 06-23-2003 05:05 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
I\'d be pleased to eat that crow dry if we had a bowl. It would be some sweet tasting crow....mmmmm.
I\'m just arguing for the sake of arguing about this. I\'m bored. I like Brooks. He can be frustrating to watch at times, but he has talent and there\'s no arguing that. I also think we\'re better off with him than our current options or what options were available in FA this year.

Here\'s hoping to eat some crow.

JOESAM2002 06-23-2003 05:06 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
That would be me! And besides Whataburger is a better burger.

BillyCarpenter1 06-23-2003 05:48 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

Kurt Warner was the MVP of the league... are you really going to tell me that he was MORE important to that team than Faulk was... ever? no way... QBs get a ton of credit b/c when you hear things over and over your brain subconsciously begins to equate hearing it a lot with good. Honestly, I think there are very few quarterbacks that have ever been as good or as important to their team as the hype surrounding them said they were... but that\'s just me...
You can put up an arguement that certain players such as receivers, tight ends, running backs, etc., are more important than the QB, which is true at times. I\'ve seen cases where running backs or defenses carried the team on their shoulders.

But if I were going to single-out the most important and difficult positon on a football team, it would be the QB.

How many offensive positons have you ever seen call their own plays. Did Marshall Faulk do that?Terry Bradshaw and Rodger Staubach did.

lumm0x 06-23-2003 06:10 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Sure Marshall Faulk called his own plays. Do you think he hit the exact hole that the blocking scheme tried to create? Every running back uses creativity and spontaneous decision making during running plays, so yes, in essence, Faulk calls his own plays. Same with recievers and O-linemen. The play is setup to run a certain way and they try to dictate it as such, but the offense reacts as well to the defense they face and must improvise routes and block technique to suit the situation.

BillyCarpenter1 06-23-2003 06:44 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

Sure Marshall Faulk called his own plays.
LummOx,

You must be very bbored. Now you are being a spin doctor. Marshall only gets the ball when someone tells him he\'s going to get it.

Do I need to go further?

[Edited on 23/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x 06-24-2003 08:40 AM

For WhoDat !!!
 
I\'m just screwing with you.

Yes, I\'m bored. I\'m starting to watch games from the 80\'s now. Damn did Bill Cowher look young coaching special teams with the Browns. He was happy and smiling.

BillyCarpenter1 06-24-2003 08:49 AM

For WhoDat !!!
 
I knew you were. Your much harder to argue with than anyone so far.

billyh1026 06-25-2003 08:29 PM

For WhoDat !!!
 
Quote:

billyh1026,

Do you even watch football? With that ridiculous post you just made.....one must wonder..........................
ohhhhhhhhhhh BillyC an insult but not a refute....intresting...it must be the CENTER!!!!


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