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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Trent Dilfer: Role Player: player who executes and takes care of assigned responsibilities within the parameters of a given scheme Aaron Brooks: Play-Maker: Gifted athlete with the ability and skill to operate outside of the parameters of a given scheme ...

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Old 06-18-2003, 04:44 PM   #1
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Trent Dilfer:
Role Player: player who executes and takes care of assigned responsibilities within the parameters of a given scheme


Aaron Brooks:
Play-Maker: Gifted athlete with the ability and skill to operate outside of the parameters of a given scheme (and therefore make plays as opposed to having plays made for him)


[Edited on 18/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
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Old 06-18-2003, 05:34 PM   #2
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You are absolutely right Billy... maybe you read other parts of that article... like this line:

\"A great organization knows how to create the near-perfect balance of speed and savvy, veterans and youngsters — role players and play-makers. \"

So by your comment above, you believe that the Saints do not have enough play-makers on offense already, and thus need one at quarterback... is that it? Deuce, Horn, Stallworth, Pathon, Conwell, Sloan... yeah, that\'s not enough \"play-makers\" we better get one at QB quick!

Look at the Eagles dear boy... look at the Falcons... they NEED a play-maker at QB b/c they don\'t have any other major weapons. Now look at the Rams and Raiders... are you telling me that those teams need a Michael Vick or Donovan McNabb at QB? No, they need \"savvy veterans\"... role players who become stars simply by executing (see Warner and Gannon) - you think they became league MVPs b/c of their sheer physical talent? Go ahead and answer... I\'m really interested to see how many bullets you can put in that foot before it falls off.

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Old 06-18-2003, 05:38 PM   #3
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Whodat,

I\'ve been waiting on you so you can respond to this, please?

You said a leader shouldn\'t make mistakes. In 2001 he threw for 36 touchdowns and 22ints. Let me count how many mistakes he made. OH IT WAS 22.


In 2002 he didn\'t play that many games, although he did play when his thumb was hurt and didn\'t want to come out of the game. I remember someone telling me Brooks wasn\'t a leader because he wouldn\'t come out of the game when he was hurt. OH YEAH, THAT WAS YOU. Anyway, the short time he was in there, he made 11 BIG OLE\' MISTAKES, and led his team out of the playoffs.

Now, let me finish this for once and all. You say Brooks is not a leader based on his first 3 years of play in the NFL. Your defiining factor for a leader is completion percentage. You claim that we need to get rid of Books and get a leader like Trent Dilfer (OH MY GOD!!)

Based on your theory, you would have said the samething about John Elway based on his stats I have listed below? OF COURSE NOT.

Because you have a keen sense for what it takes to be a NFL quarterback and you would have known that those were only growing pains and the mistakes would be corrected (i.e., throwing into coverage, scrambling when you should have stayed in the pocket, etc.)

Yes, if you would have been John Elways coach at the begining of his carear, you would have cut him and signed Steve Deburg, who was a great manger of the game, it kept him in the league for many years. But you would have deprived John Elway from getting to the HALL OF FAME, with your thinking.

But I would have let him develop and correct his mistakes. Sure I would have had to put up with the media and fans like WhoDat screaming for me to get rid of Elway. I would not have and what Elway went on to do is my favorite subject...........HISTORY !!!!

John Elway first 3-years.

1985 DEN 16 327 605 3891 54.0 22 23 70.2
1984 DEN 15 214 380 2598 56.3 18 15 76.8
1983 DEN 11 123 259 1663 47.5 7 14 54.9

Oh, and I know you are going to need to save face and say he didn\'t have the talent like Brooks has around him.

To you, I say the Broncos went to the playoffs with Elway as a rookie starter and lost in the first round. Sounds like another QB I know........Aaron Brooks....And a true leader should know what talent he does and does not have, and utilize the talent he does have.

John Elway is the best leader I can think of in the NFl (see The DRIVE) and if you were to call him and ask him if he made
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Old 06-18-2003, 06:01 PM   #4
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Elway was a great leader. Any more so than Montana,Young, Favre or Marino?
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Old 06-18-2003, 06:08 PM   #5
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WhoDat,

I will anwser your question like this

While I do beleive role players are a necessary part of any football team. I would not build my football around a role player at quarterback.

Great managers of the game will keep you in some games and will not kill you with mistakes.

However, given the choice between a leader with limited skills (can\'t run) and a quarterback that can operate outside of a system and MAKE PLAYS, I will chose the one that can make plays.

Players that rely on offensive schemes to make plays for them are only successful for a limited time.(i.e. Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, etc..)

While there have been some great QB\'s that were managers of the game, the NFL has changed and a premium has been placed on rushing the passer. Many elaborate defenses have been installed, that make having a quarterback that can run almost necessary.

Offensive schemes are figured out and stopped, but a playmaker has natural ability that cannot be taught and is really tough to defend against, for his whole carear. If a team does decide to designate a \"spy\" for the QB, then just the fact that they have to use a spy, makes that QB a game changer.

I don\'t think that can be said of the type of QB you like.














[Edited on 18/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 18/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
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Old 06-18-2003, 06:31 PM   #6
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So by your comment above, you believe that the Saints do not have enough play-makers on offense already, and thus need one at quarterback... is that it? Deuce, Horn, Stallworth, Pathon, Conwell, Sloan... yeah, that\'s not enough \"play-makers\" we better get one at QB quick!

Can you really ever have enough play makers. Ask yourself that when we play the Falcons this year.

YOUR MAKING THIS TOO EASY........COME ON MAN???

[Edited on 18/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
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Old 06-18-2003, 06:44 PM   #7
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Elway was a great leader. Any more so than Montana,Young, Favre or Marino?
The reason for me comparing Brooks to Elway was to show WhoDat, with his mentality on judging QB\'s, he would have said the samething about Elway, because he really stunk it up his first 3-years and the samethings that he is saying about Brooks, many fans that weren\'t knowledgebale about football, said the samethings of him. But like I said, the rest is HISTORY......
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Old 06-19-2003, 07:05 AM   #8
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A. The more you scream the less credibility you have.

B. So Aaron Brooks \"made more plays\" this year then Gannon? He made more plays this year or last year than Warner did last year. The need to make something out of absolutely nothing comes very rarely on the football field Billy. There are only 3 quarterbacks in the entire league that seem to be able to make something out of nothing very well... Vick, McNabb, and Favre (who does it with his arm). I seriously doubt Aaron will ever have the play making abilities that these guys have. Further, if you want to really be able to make a play, it takes knowledge of the system, knowing where your receivers will be, etc. Aaron doesn\'t have that.

C. I never \"Brooks wasn\'t a leader because he wouldn\'t come out of the game when he was hurt.\" You find where I said that and I will concede this entire argument right now.

But since you brought it up, let\'s talk about this. First, stats like completion percentage and efficiency show what kind of MANAGER a QB is. Compared to the other QBs in the league, last year, Brooks finished in the bottom ten of the league... but I guess that doesn\'t matter.

Leadership is shown by how you act on the field... the way you inspire your teammates and whether or not they look to you when times are tight. If Brooks is such a great leader, why did his own Pro Bowl teammate ask the head coach to take him out of the game at the end of the season?

The only good point that you have made so far is that other QBs have taken three or so years to develop... well by the end of this season, Brooks will have started as many games as guys like Elway - when he was midway through his FOURTH season. Is that enough time for you? When is enough? How long do you realistically think we can keep this talent together? Maybe Brooks will be great in 2010... but will we have any players left or will he be the only decent one? This NFL is VERY different than Elway\'s or Marino\'s or Montana\'s or even Young\'s. It\'s a now-now kind of environment and three years now is like five back then... maybe more based on the turnoever in talent.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 06-19-2003, 07:17 AM   #9
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WhoDat,

Ok, maybe that wasn\'t you that was talking about Brooks coming out of the game....

Turn over on talent or not, the fact is the QB position is the most diffucult position to learn. More money is invested in the QB position than any other. You bulid your team around the QB.


As far as how much time should be give to Brooks. I think he needs to show improvement this year with his completion percentage and his leadership ability. I\'ve never disagreed with you on those issues.

What I have disagreed with you on is saying that he will never be a leader or manager of the game. Do you know how many fans have said that about some of the all time great QB\'s that have played in this game?

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Old 06-19-2003, 12:29 PM   #10
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now , now boys this argument is null and void now that Brooks will be cloned into the next Joe Montana!!!!!! Right????
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