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-   -   Michael Lewis @ reciever. (https://blackandgold.com/saints/1578-michael-lewis-reciever.html)

BillyCarpenter1 06-25-2003 08:34 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
All indications are that Michael Lewis has made quiet an impression on the coaches this off season. His route running and pass catching have vastly improved, according to coaches.

With the speed the Saints already have at reciever with Horn and Stallworth, having Michael Lewis at the #3 receiver would create a match-up problem by forcing the opponets #3 corner to cover Lewis.

Also by having Horn, Stallworth, and Lewis lined up at receiver on running plays, it would force the opponents defense to play honest and honor the passing game, which should open up running lanes for Duece.

Considering where Lewis come from, to where his is now, shows how hard he has worked. I like the idea of Lewis being the #3 receiver over Paython.

One thing for sure, considering how hard Lewis has worked to get where he is now, you know he will give 100% on every play.

Anyone disagree with Lewis being the #3 receiver?


tweeky 06-25-2003 08:57 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Yes I disagree with Lewis as a #3. Pathon is a quality WR, probably better than Lewis at this stage. The report on Pathon is that he\'s put on about 10lbs of muscle and has mastered all 3 WR positions. I worry about using Lewis as a #3 because he\'s so valuable as a return guy. He\'s only 170 lbs and would eventually get hurt if he played the 3wr. I like him as a fill in #4WR, an occasional #3 to spell one of our main 3 and a gadget play guy. I think he could make a great #3 if necessary but its not necessary.

roughneck 06-25-2003 09:16 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Billy, I have to respectfully disagree on this one. I don\'t post often, but enjoy the opinions of most here. I especially like your \"realistic optimism\".

By making Lewis the #3 receiver something else would have to give. Whether it is his kick returning, which I believe no one wants to lose or his punt coverage, where he accounted for 10 tackles last season, I don\'t think it would be worth it. We have a very competent, experienced and HEALTHY Jerome Pathon to fill that role. I also like the draft picks\' potential as well.

I think Lewis is much more valuable to the Saints overall where he is. I do like the idea of him in a 4-wide situation with single coverage so he can utilize his speed to break a few short passes to pay dirt, but to be on the field as a #3 receiver and special teams star would undoubtedly wear on his stamina as the season progresses and greatly increase the risk of injury to a man I don\'t want to think of missing any playing time.


LordOfEntropy 06-25-2003 12:34 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
I disagree with Lewis as #3 as well. That\'d significantly increase his injury risk, and he\'s just too damn valuable on special teams to afford that risk.

coastalkid 06-25-2003 12:46 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Looks as thoug it has all been said. I agree that he shouldn\'t be used EXTENSIVELY at the #3 spot for the many reasons mentioned above. The #4 position could be fun to see from time to time. Pathon is expected to have a good year this year. But if any of the \"big three\" go down or need a spell the beerman can deliver!

tweeky 06-25-2003 12:52 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
The more I think about Lewis\'s return ability, coupled with our depth at WR, I now almost hope they don\'t even let him practice at #3WR.

Is their a more exciting return man (punt and kick) in the game?

Has there been anyone this exciting since Billy \"white shoes\" Johnson?

Maybe Deion, but thats a toss up.

duece4heisman316 06-25-2003 03:10 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Michael Lewis has great speed and is a great rout-runner, but he is just too small to be a big factor at the #3 spot. Pathon is a bigger receiver with impressive speed and has been a slot receiver most of his career. When I saw the Saints play the Browns this season(the 24-15 loss was embarassing)Lewis had a 100-yard receiving game as the #4 receiver. He is a good receiver to go to in short 1st and 10 situations, where he can sneak to the middle of the field about 8-10 yards out, where Brooks can just give him the ball(God forbid) and allow Lewis to run...that\'s where he\'d be most effective. Let him do what he does best: Return kicks and punts.

Btw, saw him at the 2003 Saints caravan here in Jackson, MS...heck of a nice guy

thanks
weston

bjmf 06-25-2003 07:17 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
:casstet: lewis is to fast to just sit on the bench when the offence is on the field.
decoy throw to him or whatever but use him. he\'s a weapon. when you play scared
you play to lose. use your weapons injurys happen. a meal stared at is a meal wasted.

LordOfEntropy 06-26-2003 08:24 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Would you play Michael Vick at OLB when the defence is on the field, because he\'s so fast, because he\'s such a weapon?

coastalkid 06-26-2003 11:05 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
I would only hope that Atlanta would try that. Might be just what we need to see happen.

WhoDat 06-26-2003 11:27 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
I also disagree... this team has more than enough speed on the field on offense... what we need is a big keyshawn johnson type guy to go and sit in the middle of the field to open it up more for guys like horn and stallworth... and yes, Lewis in 4 WR sets.

BillyCarpenter1 06-26-2003 11:59 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
From what I\'m hearing, no one wants Lewis to play #3 receiver because he is too valuiable in the return game.

I don\'t want Lewis injuried either, but anyone rememeber a receiver with the vikings that was about the same size as Lewis, by the name of Andre Carter?

Lewis may not be another Andre Carter.But how will we know unless Lewis is given the opportunity?

I have no problem with Lewis as the #4 recevier, but if he does have the ablity to be a 1000 yard receiver, then it would be pretty foolish for him to not be given the opportunity.

Another thing is that come contract time for Lewis, if he wants to play receiver more and he is not given the chance to, I promise you another team will.




[Edited on 26/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

saint5221 06-26-2003 12:02 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
I llike Lewis but Jerome is the man for #3 reciver. He is a tough reciver perfect for the 3 slot. Last year after the disappearance of our tight ends he was forced to go over the middle a lot more than usual and ran some routes a tight end usually would. He got killed but made alot of big catches. He said he had never been hit so hard or so much in his career. This year he should be able to play more in a natural reciver role and be very valuable in the #2 spot if Stallworth has further injury problems.He should be very productive for us in either place. Lewis still has a place and hopefully will grow into a more complete player, but as of now Pathon should still be #3.

[Edited on 6/26/2003 by saint5221]

lumm0x 06-26-2003 03:59 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Quote:

I don\'t want Lewis injuried either, but anyone rememeber a receiver with the vikings that was about the same size as Lewis, by the name of Andre Carter?
No, I don\'t remember any Andre Carter. Do you mean Anthony Carter? He was 5\'11\" and about 180lbs. Lewis is a bit smaller at 5\'8\", 165 lbs, but if that\'s the guy you mean, then yeah he was a very productive reciever over his career and not a large WR by any means.

BillyCarpenter1 06-26-2003 04:05 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Thanks LummOx,

Yeah that\'s who I meant. I should have never forgotten that name, as many times as he tourched the Saints.

lumm0x 06-26-2003 04:13 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
The game is all about winning. That\'s it. Nothing else matters. If playing Lewis at #3 WR wins us games then play him. If playing Pathon or someone else at #3 wins us games then play him. I would give Lewis a share of reps running the plays. If the coaching staff worries about a guy getting hurt on a passing play then that player definitely should not play special teams. I\'d hazard to guess that you\'ll see a guy lying on the field with pain after a special teams play more often than any passing down. Sure durability must be factored, but this is a contact sport. If you remove a playmaker from a play because he could get hurt we\'d have all our back-ups to watch and the starters could look nice and neat and wave at us.

BillyCarpenter1 06-26-2003 04:21 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
LummOx,

That\'s my feeling on the issue exactly. I don\'t know if he\'s the guy or not, but I\'m just saying give the guy a shot. If he can\'t do it fine!!

There is nothing I can really add to what you said but anyone who thinks any differently doesn\'t understand competition.

LordOfEntropy 06-26-2003 04:36 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Lumm0x, Billy, I\'ve read many of your posts and have agreed with most (nearly all) of the things you\'ve said.

In this case, however, I think the primary issue is where is the threshold, where is the balance that gives the Saints the best shot at the big one? Do the Saints have a better chance of winning with Lewis@3 or Pathon@3?

Personally, I think they\'re best shot is with Lewis sticking to special teams (factoring in fatigue, size, and injury risk) with Pathon sticking to the slot.

I may have given the impression the Saints should not risk their valuable players just because of injury risk. No. Rather, It\'s about where can they best utilize the assets they\'ve got, which of course factors in all facets of the game.

That being said, I stick by my lowly opinion. I think Lewis is best utilized on special teams, with only limited appearances in the regular offense.

BillyCarpenter1 06-26-2003 04:45 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
LordOfEntropy,

I can understand your thinking but without giving Lewis a shot at being a true receiver then no one knows what the best is for the Saints getting to the Superbowl.

Now, if he is given the chance and can\'t get the job done, then so be it. Anything other than that is just speculation.

lumm0x 06-26-2003 04:46 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
One thing I\'ve always believed about the way football is structured is that, unlike hockey, baseball, basketball, etc, we only have 16 games to play, not 100+. There is no such thing in the NFL that isn\'t a must win game. One game could be your season. If you don\'t field the best (and by best I mean most productive) player given all current factors (such as if a guy is hurt, if the replacement will be more effective, you use the sub and if the injured guy is better playing with pain, you play him), you are not playing to win. Do you rest a player that\'s hurt with the hope he will be there next week for you, but lose this game because of it? You do if you want to be an unemployed coach. Coaches are graded on winning percentage first, and ability to get to the big game second.
He has big play potential. He\'s proven that. If he generates more by getting increased touches in a trial at #3 then you have to do it. This game is like a lottery. Tommorrow is promised to no one (just to quote sweetness).

LordOfEntropy 06-26-2003 04:54 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
If the value he bring to the #3 position (as opposed to Pathon@3) outweighs the negatives of putting him at #3, then of course. Play him.

But in my opinion, the value doesn\'t outweigh. I know he\'s improved, according to all the reports. But I just don\'t buy that he returns more value there than Pathon does.

BillyCarpenter1 06-26-2003 05:00 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
That\'s the same kind of things that have been said of many players that were under sized. I don\'t think anyone would be arguing over Lewis being the #3 receiver if he wasn\'t small. According to these posts anyway.

Much of these same things were said about Sam Mills also. Jim Mora gave the guy a chance and he was a pro bowl player.

What if Mills would have been a great special teams player. Would you have not given him the chance to play linebacer because in your opinion he couldn\'t hold up for 16 games.

Bottom line is somone has to be given the chance or you will never know.





[Edited on 26/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x 06-26-2003 05:25 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
I agree with the idea of maximizing his plays within a threshold. I also believe that when you have an explosive player you find ways to get the ball in has hands. Whether it works or not (Tim Dwight for example), you need to explore the possibility. His 114 special teams touches last year are a work load definitely. I hope that Kareem Kelly will add to our ability to be dangerous on special teams. That way they can\'t kick away from Lewis so much on kickoffs and might reduce his involvement without lack of production.
I also think that Pathon is going to be a dangerous reciever this year. The addition of Conwell and the maturation of Stallworth with the 1st year under his belt can only make us better. We will more dangerous than last year offensively. Hopefully we can stay healthy.

pakowitz 06-26-2003 05:55 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
man if we stay healthy, i think we will break all kinds of offensive NFL records

WhoDat 06-27-2003 06:58 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Lewis is a guy with a LOT of speed... but he\'s small, doesn\'t have great route running skils (although they are getting better), and although he seems to be able to find daylight in the kicking game, he\'s not exactly a crafty veteran when it comes to finding holes in the defensive backfield.

Bottom line is that you\'re enamored by his speed Billy. But he doesn\'t have a whole lot more to give. I think he\'s playing almost entirely up to his potential at this point... there\'s not a whole lot more that we can get out of him. There are probably 1,000 guys in the US as fast or faster that Lewis - you don\'t see teams running after them b/c it takes a lot more than that. Lewis could not be a 1,000 yard receiver. He\'s just one of those Mel Grey type guys who will always be a special teams stud and not much more.

bjmf 06-27-2003 06:49 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
:casstet: everybodys missing the point. he can be a great fourth reciever.the teams we play know his speed somebody has to cover him.with the speed we have at the other three recievers, man you can\'t cover all those guys. nobody has that many fast c.b.decoy decoy decoy. if he blows by a guy bam!!!!! you go to him.
he\'s on the field maybe 4, 5, times on offence.you have more of a chance getting hurt
on returns running at full speed into a linebacker then running away from a c.b.
if we don\'t use him someone will with another team.

WhoDat 06-28-2003 09:05 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
So then why don\'t other teams go out and sign sprinters? They\'re are a lot of them out there... just put him on the field and send him straight down the sideline every play right?

Let me try this again... it takes a LOT more than speed to be a good receiver in the NFL. Rice is not that fast anymore. Neither is Horn, or Keyshawn, or Owens, etc. etc. etc.

tweeky 06-28-2003 10:30 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
To all those that say we should play Lewis because you don\'t want talent wasted. Basically use it all up because there\'s no tomorrow.

I disagree. Deuce is probably our finest athelete, would you want him back there returning kicks, or returning punts?

Lewis has a role on this team. That role has been defines by special teams and an occasional spot at WR on certain plays. I think his overall productivity would diminish if he played much more of a role than that. If we didn\'t already have a quality#3, then I\'d be more open to Lewis at #3. But Pathon is an incredible #3.

Name a single #3 WR who is better than Jerome Pathon.

I can\'t think of one. In fact he\'s better than the majority of #2\'s in the league.

Lewis will make a nice living doing just what he\'s doing now.

If Pathon goes down, then maybe M. Lewis and D. Lewis should share the #3 spot.

BillyCarpenter1 06-28-2003 10:53 AM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Quote:

So then why don\'t other teams go out and sign sprinters?
Many wide receivers in the NFL today and in the past were sprinters in college. I agree that it takes more than speed to be a receiver but speed is one thing you cannot teach.

Speed seems to be at a premium for conerbacks. I wonder why that is? It must be to cover all the wide receivers in nfl that have world class speed. It takes more than speed to be a cornerback too, but I don\'t want a slow cornerback. Do you?

roughneck 06-28-2003 12:19 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
A corner needs to have speed because the receiver KNOWS where he is going and the corner does not. Also the corner is at a huge disadvantage by moving backward at the beginning of a playand must adjust and recover quickly. Receivers need not have blazing speed. In fact of all the top tier WRs in the game, Horn is probably the fastest. And for those talking about Beerman blowing by DBs in 4 wide sets? That does not happen often for anyone. In those sets you must get rid of the ball quickly and hope a WR can make something happen after the catch. In 4 wide formations you don\'t have enough protection to allow a WR to run a deep post or similar pattern.

BillyCarpenter1 06-28-2003 12:32 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Quote:

A corner needs to have speed because the receiver KNOWS where he is going and the corner does not. Also the corner is at a huge disadvantage by moving backward at the beginning of a playand must adjust and recover quickly. Receivers need not have blazing speed. In fact of all the top tier WRs in the game, Horn is probably the fastest. And for those talking about Beerman blowing by DBs in 4 wide sets? That does not happen often for anyone. In those sets you must get rid of the ball quickly and hope a WR can make something happen after the catch. In 4 wide formations you don\'t have enough protection to allow a WR to run a deep post or similar pattern.
Corners need to have speed and receivers don\'t. If that\'s the case then we don\'t need recievers, we need all tight ends that can use their size to make catches.

Joe Horn the fastest of all the top receivers. Have you ever heard of Randy Moss, or any of the Rams receivers. I could go on and on, but I won\'t.

As far as a receiver making something happen after the catch. Nothing is going to happen after the catch if the reciever doesn\'t have speed, because they will be caught and tackled. Speed, Speed, and more Speeed.

[Edited on 28/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

billyh1026 06-28-2003 02:03 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
I think we should use the beerman as a haul-ass and we\'ll throw it your way guy every now and then myself. A third WR?? Ummmmm I\'m thinking I like Pathon better.

subguy 06-28-2003 03:36 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Lewis is one of our key special teams guys. Fine to use him as an occasional 4 WR, but we are fine at receiver. That is probably one of our least worry areas.

WhoDat 06-28-2003 10:02 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Randy Moss.... he did make the Pro Bowl this year.... behind Horn and Owens... are either of them faster than he is? How about Marty Booker? He made it... Jerry Rice...

Great idea Billy... Lewis as the #3... I\'ll tell you what. $100 bet, 10-1 odds that Lewis is not a number three receiver at any point this season UNLESS there is injury... and even then I doubt it...

Aren\'t you the guy that loves Aaron Brooks? Man you\'re only making me feel more confident on my opinion about AB... I mean if these are your other ideas... whew.

BillyCarpenter1 06-28-2003 10:59 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Actually I put this post on here because it\'s one of the few things that hasn\'t been discussed on here. No, I don\'t think he\'s going to be our #3 receiver, but I think everyone should be given an opportunity.

And if my opinions make you feel better about yours, then that means you aren\'t confident with them in the first place.

[Edited on 29/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

iceshack149 06-29-2003 01:00 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
Looks like we all agree on Pathon at #3. He is a really good #2 playing at #3 and we are fortunate to have him.

I agree with Lord of Entropy that fatigue and size are a major factor. His hands are too small. It would be like Pathon trying to handle a watermellon without fumbling it. He\'s too valuable for our special teams to even consider as a #3.

I also like tweeky\'s idea of \"gadget play guy\". Sorta like Deon. Have the defenses wondering what this guy is going to do.
Imagine what defenses would think if Lewis went in motion before the play. If it were a cartoon you\'d see a bunch of question marks over the secondaries heads.

billyh1026 06-29-2003 08:15 PM

Michael Lewis @ reciever.
 
I think either way you look at it...from top to bottom...the only team that has a comparable WR corps is the Steelers. With the speed we\'ve got in our WR\'s and the ability to use that to clear out space, there is zero reasons why a TE shouldn\'t be all world by default. The middle should be his to own.


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