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Reason for Collapse?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; There has been a lot of speculation on why the Saints have collapsed at the end of the last 2 seasons. Coaches saying it's a lack of stamina from practicing in the heat but considering other teams practice in the ...

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Old 08-06-2003, 09:42 AM   #1
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Reason for Collapse?

There has been a lot of speculation on why the Saints have collapsed at the end of the last 2 seasons. Coaches saying it's a lack of stamina from practicing in the heat but considering other teams practice in the same heat like Tampa, (and they did Ok) I don't buy that. Then there's people who want to blame Haslett for leaving Brooks in while he was hurt, which an arguement could be made, however, if Brooks would have pulled it off, the same fans that are screaming about his decesion would be calling for a Haslett statue to be errected in front of the Super Dome.

To me, the injury of Duece and the defense was the reason for the collapse last year, which had nothing to do with the collapse from the year before. So comparing the colapse from one year to the other, I feel is off base. One had nothing do to with the other.

While I think Haslett is blamed too much for the collapse(with everything considered) he is ultimately responsible for everything that happens and he is going to have to get the problem solved this year, no matter what the reason may be.




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Old 08-06-2003, 10:33 AM   #2
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Reason for Collapse?

I agree that the buck stops with Haz, but I also think there has been some rediculous speculation where people believe Jim purposfully caused the collapse the last two years. The Saints just didn\'t have any heart at the end of last year and THAT can be blamed on Haz for sure, but those that indicate he lost on purpose or because he was bull headed regarding the QB situation, in my opinion, are way off base and outta line.

Back up and consider some of the \"great\" coaches in the league today. Nobody, no matter how good they are, comes in and wins the superbowl in a year or two. It takes time, and people should recognize that Jim has been getting his \"head coach\" feet wet the last few years. It took JJ a while in Dallas, and how long was Parcells a head coach before he won the big game?

I agree with all that this is a make or break year for Jim, but lets not lose sight of the offense he\'s built here...the most prolific in the history of the team. I am wishing good things for Haz this year and I hope he doesn\'t get run out of town before he has a chance to create on defense what he\'s created on offense. Patience is a hard word for a fan of the Saints to swallow, but that doesn\'t mean it\'s not accurate.

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Old 08-06-2003, 11:08 AM   #3
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Reason for Collapse?

The truth is that we did not have enough talent to get to the super bowl last year. Talent is the biggest factor not coaching.

Bill Parcells is the new coach in Dallas this year and I don\'t hear everyone saying the Cowboys are the favorite this year because of the new system Parcells brought in or because he is a master motivator. Parcells will never win anything until he gets talent on offense, defense, and special teams.

The same fans who say that the Saints should have won more games last year are the same fans that are predicting us to go 9-7 again this year. How is that?



[Edited on 6/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
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Old 08-06-2003, 11:22 AM   #4
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Reason for Collapse?

Other teams practice in the heat too, yes, but maybe they don\'t work their players as hard, especially before the season starts. You won\'t play on the same level over 4 or 5 months, your form will peak at one time and after that it\'s a downward slide. If Maurice Green runs a 9,90 in August, he can\'t run it again in November. The Saints just peaked early (as a team) and had little left going into December. When you\'re tired you make little mistakes, like the ones our offense made (remember the all-nighter for the press where Haz tried to prove it wasn\'t Brooks fault they lost the last game? He concentrated on those little things, running a route not exactly enough etc. This is typical for a team that\'s drained). I think this is under control now.
Deuce was hurt, but they still should have performed better. As for blaming it on the defense ... their play wasn\'t going downhill any faster than that of the offense. Least points allowed was in the last game (against a weak offense, alright). In Cincinnatti they were just tired, but almost any defense would be when your offense goes 3-and-out on nearly every drive. They allowed a lot of points before and the offense still got the job done. The D stunk last year, but not just in the last 4 games.
Other problems I saw: Brooks, obviously. Enough said. An offensive coordinator who didn\'t have a back-up plan if things didn\'t work out the way he imagined them to. This came back to bite us in the ass in the later games of the season after teams had time to study the offense.
Still, with Delhomme we might have won at least 2 of the 4 games. If Brooks stays healthy one other reason for the collapse is taken care of.

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Old 08-06-2003, 11:31 AM   #5
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Reason for Collapse?

I agree with the part about not having a back-up plan on offense, but I\'m not sure about working too hard in the off season. I hope your right.

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Old 08-06-2003, 02:07 PM   #6
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Reason for Collapse?

Billy, I\'ll tell you two things here:

First, teams like Cinncinnati and Dallas will be better than last year just because of the coaching. Are they favorites, no way, because like you said, the pieces to the puzzle are missing. But, I will put money that both clubs improve their records because of the talent level of their respective coaching staff.

Two, part of coaching is accumulating the staff required to win. No team will assemble itself. If talent comes to a team it is because of the coaches decision to get that player. Thus, the coach is responsible for the talent on the team. Bad coach, lack of talent. Good coach, correct player for his system. Managing the correct ratio of salary, tangible strength within the position requirements, and intangibles. That is what makes a winning team. Not a bus load of statistical league leaders.
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Old 08-06-2003, 02:19 PM   #7
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Reason for Collapse?

I agree with all of that LummOX. The point I was trying to make was to fans who blame everything on Haslett and says he is a bad coach.

We\'ve had the debate on coaches and players before, and I think some things got turned around on both of our parts. You place a higher emphasis on coaching and I think it the players who are more responsible for a teams success.

I think we can both agree that coaching, schemes, and talent are the recipe for success.
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Old 08-07-2003, 02:28 AM   #8
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Reason for Collapse?

1. 2001 and of 2002 should not be lumped together. Different years, different players, different opponents, different injuries, different teams.

2. Talent usually beats coaching, coaching talent usually beats someone lacking either or both. Coaching decissions may have not given us the best chance to win. We can second guess, but nobody will ever know. Internal player problems were an issue but involved different players. Could have something to do with the high expectations of 2001 coming off of the 2000 suprise season. Some players may have been overconfident. Some may not have had the experience of knowing how to get it done.

3. I don\'t buy into the heat theory. My belief is that if it was an issue the players would be worn down in the beginning of the season until they got their legs back under them and would have an edge as the season wore on due to superior conditioning. The marathon runner has the stability to run the distance he does because he practices running distance. Strength and conditioning coaching may have a greater influence on the players ability than what the heat of training camp months earlier would have. The players each must take responsibility for their own diet and conditioning once camp ends and the season wears on. Other teams practice in the heat. Teams that practice inside climate controlled facilities don\'t go undefeated.

4. This is the NFL. The other teams are playing with paid professionals also. On any given sunday.

5. Players, Coaches, Talent of each, Schemes, Gameplans, Lack of injuries, Team unity, Officiating, and yes, even the luck of the Bounce of the ball. Recipe for winning.


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Old 08-07-2003, 07:40 AM   #9
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Reason for Collapse?

If they knew the reason for the collapse they would have fixed it.

It\'s a trend, just like the Bucs never winning a road playoff game was a trend. There is nothing to \'fix\' they just have to buck the trend.

Then all the questions go away.

But until then expect it to brought up by everyone, media, players & fans alike. It\'s not going away until the Saints win in December.

[Edited on 7/8/2003 by Batwood]
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Old 08-07-2003, 11:12 AM   #10
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Reason for Collapse?

If they knew the reason for the collapse they would have fixed it.

It\'s a trend, just like the Bucs never winning a road playoff game was a trend. There is nothing to \'fix\' they just have to buck the trend.

Then all the questions go away.

But until then expect it to brought up by everyone, media, players & fans alike. It\'s not going away until the Saints win in December.

[Edited on 7/8/2003 by Batwood]
I agree with what your saying, but I think there are a couple of reasons why the Saints have not done well late in the season.

First of all, under Haslett\'s first year, the Saints won their first playoff game and fans expectations were very high the following year. Everyone saw what Brooks did in his first year and expected him to be a be a pro-bowl QB from then on, which usually doesn\'t happen because young QB\'s usually struggle at some point.

Also, there were problems with the defense the first year under Haslett, but they did have some success and they went pretty much with what they had the following year on defense, and found out that changes had to be made. Last year they experimented with the \"Heavy Lunch Bunch\" and it failed miserably.

When you take into account what Haslett inheirited and the enormous rebuilding job he had to do in all 3 phases of the team (offense, defense, special teams) and also take into consideration the rebuilding of the offense was concentrated on first, which is why the defense has not been as successful as the offense, then I for one can see why the team as a whole has not been consistant.

It\'s easy to look at all the talented players that the Saints have and say they should have been better the last 2 seasons, and that might be true, but taking everything into account, I don\'t think the collapse of the last 2 seasons are any indication of poor coaching or lack of leadership from the QB position.

There\'s really nothing that you can put your finger on by comparing the 2-years. It takes time to rebuild an organization that was as bad as Haslett took over.

There is no denying that we have one of the best offenses and special teams in the league. This year the defense was concentrated on almost exclusively and I\'m quite sure all the peices are not in place to rival the best defenses in the league, but, I don\'t think we have to have a dominate defense this year to win it all this year. Just a good one. Next year I\'m sure they will concentrate on defense even more and we should be a great team for years to come.
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