I want your opinions.

butcheverett · 01-19-2008, 06:44 PM

First things first, I love this board!
Secondly, I'd love to see us get a Top Notch corner for a change and not someone's left overs!

NarwhalHunter · 01-20-2008, 12:31 AM

I think Payton is more inclined to trade down than Haz was. We traded down to get Harper and Evans in the '06 draft (and took Faine and Hollis in those trades). Same with Young and what basically became the Pittman pick.

iceshack149 · 01-21-2008, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by butcheverett

First things first, I love this board!
Secondly, I'd love to see us get a Top Notch corner for a change and not someone's left overs!

Welcome Butch. I'm with you on Deuce.

Give me Bryant Johnson and leave the offense alone.

On defense, I'd like a big time player especially in the secondary. Asante Samuel will demand a lot of money but I'm all for getting him. Especially since McKenzie will be out for most, if not all, of next season. Asomugha would be great also. I'd even be happy if the Saints got Drayton Florence from San Diego.
I'm with Papz on Briggs in that he's pretty good but may be overrated. He may be a bit overrated but I wouldn't be too upset if the Saints picked him up. Suggs would be a great pick up.
Haynesworth played well this year but the dude is a nut. Sure he behaved well this year but once a nut, always a nut. He stomped on Gurodes head not once but twice last year and that makes me skeptical.

I'm cautiously optimistic about this off-season. Sean Payton has said that he realizes that the defense is crap and that he plans to make big changes on that side of the ball. We'll see about that.

WhoDatQB · 01-22-2008, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by iceshack149

Welcome Butch. I'm with you on Deuce.

Give me Bryant Johnson and leave the offense alone.

On defense, I'd like a big time player especially in the secondary. Asante Samuel will demand a lot of money but I'm all for getting him. Especially since McKenzie will be out for most, if not all, of next season. Asomugha would be great also. I'd even be happy if the Saints got Drayton Florence from San Diego.
I'm with Papz on Briggs in that he's pretty good but may be overrated. He may be a bit overrated but I wouldn't be too upset if the Saints picked him up. Suggs would be a great pick up.
Haynesworth played well this year but the dude is a nut. Sure he behaved well this year but once a nut, always a nut. He stomped on Gurodes head not once but twice last year and that makes me skeptical.

I'm cautiously optimistic about this off-season. Sean Payton has said that he realizes that the defense is crap and that he plans to make big changes on that side of the ball. We'll see about that.

==================

Bryant Johnson from Arizona? Forget Williams from Detroit, Johnson is better than all the WR's on this team save Colston, and we can get him much more cheaply.

McKenzie will be, or should be out all next year. He tore his ACL in what second to last game? Depending upon they type of surgery available to him he could be back in 6 months. I had an left knee ACL explosion and had surgery on it.

There were two options
1. Harvest tendon from the knee and put it in the ACL's place. You get weak about 3-4 weeks into your rehab as your body notices it is not a ligament and remakes the tendon into a ligament. This version took much longer but was cheaper.

2. Cadaver ligament. This is the option I went with. I did strength training with the busted ligament to keep my leg and knee in shape before the surgery(I was in college and had to wait until spring break to have the surgery). I went in first thing Monday morning for my surgery. I was on the range at the golf course on Friday with my surgeon and physical therapist. Now I was not hitting full shots, and I was wearing a brace. However the surgeon and PT told me It would have taken 8 weeks or more doing the surgery the other way.

I do not know if this is a viable option for athletes or if even available at all any more. My surgeon was the knee and joint surgeon for UNC, Duke, and NC State team sports. He recommended it for me, although as a golfer I doubt I ever put as much stress on it as a pro football player does.

I was running hitting full shots and walking the golf course the next Friday after the first. I was playing basketball and tennis four weeks later. I was physically healed 100% based on scans and doctors evaluation 3 months after the surgery. Now as far as mentally 100% that took another year to fully trust myself on that leg.

Ok now on to the rest, I would love to see us trade down, however it takes two to tango. Just because we want to move down does not mean we can. There are so many CB's in the draft this year that a trade down would be GREAT. Trade down pick up an additional 2 or 3 rounder(depending upon where that pick is located) and draft a DT, LB and CB with our first three picks. I would love to see the guy from the Raiders or Asante, but will the FO pony up the dough considering we will have to pony it up for Colston? We have to pick up and MAN 2 MAN CB (or two)in FA as well, because I just do not see McKenzie making his way onto the field until 7-8 games in and I am scared of a Thomas/Craft duo in the secondary.

Briggs, better than what we have but not worth what he will want in a contract. product of his position in the system which he plays. Haynesworth, if I could have a healthy Haynesworth and the way he played this year, then hell yeah. However, he is either STUPID or INSANE, neither of which would I like to see on this team.

WVSaint · 01-22-2008, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by saintsmissile

Please someone explain to me WHY we need to draft a DT with our first pick? Our run defense was about the only aspect of our defense that was improved and solid. Granted Lake is average, but Thomas, Young (when healthy) et al did a pretty damn good job. With our LB's and secondary OBVIOUSLY being the worst part of our team, why pick DT? I would think the priority would be replacing BUM Bullocks or BUM David or BUM Simeneau or BUM Shanle!

Because our DTs our old and we get little to no pressure on the QB. Its not gonna matter whos in our secondary, when you give a pro QB time to pick you apart hes gonna do just that.

papz · 01-22-2008, 09:43 AM

Yup... age and lack of pass rush.

Our run defense was good last year but with teams being able to throw on us at will... it didn't give teams a reason to run the ball on us. Think of the Oakland Raiders... their secondary has been pretty good the last two years, but a big part of that is due to the fact teams absolutely maul them running the football.

Now we don't absolutely need to draft a DT with our first pick... DT might not be the BPA at 10. We do however need to draft a young guy to develop.

papz · 01-22-2008, 10:02 AM

I'm well aware DT's don't usually put up big sack numbers. 4 sacks a season for DT's is considered pretty good for that position. What is meant by lack of pass rush is the ability of a defensive tackle to occupy blockers freeing up our defensive ends. I would have thought that would have been quite obvious. If you don't think DT's play an important role in the success of our secondary, you sure you watch and understand football?

But anyways off the top of my head, Kevin Williams and Rod Coleman are two very good pass rushers at DT.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 01-22-2008, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by papz

Yup... age and lack of pass rush.

Our run defense was good last year but with teams being able to throw on us at will... it didn't give teams a reason to run the ball on us. Think of the Oakland Raiders... their secondary has been pretty good the last two years, but a big part of that is due to the fact teams absolutely maul them running the football.

Exactly. The Saints needs another big athletic body in the middle to suck up double teams to keep the new MLB clean against the run and to generate a pass rush up the middle without having to blitz all the time.

Now we don't absolutely need to draft a DT with our first pick... DT might not be the BPA at 10.

BDPA. I'd be ticked even if the Saints picked a stud OL, much less any other offensive player, with that #10 pick. That pick has to be for an impact defensive starter in an area of need. Think about the fact that Patrick Willis was picked #11 last year. 174 tackles! WOW! Even the DT from Lousiville (Okoyah?) selected at #10 has a force and had 5.5 sacks from the DT position.

The #10 pick has to be an impact defensive player. It cannot just be the BPA.

We do however need to draft a young guy to develop.

No time to develop with that #10 pick. We've already had our redshirt first round pick. We need a guy that will be ready to contribute come September.

SFIAH

papz · 01-22-2008, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by saintsmissile

I understand football just fine. I undestand that we virtually had the same DTs' from the year we went to the NFCCG and pass rush was never mentioned that season. Yet now, all of a sudden, our DTs are one of our biggest weaknesses. To say that DT is more of a need on this team that LB, CB or S and you are burying your head in the sand.

Hollis Thomas will be 34 years old, weighs easily over 340 pounds, and will be entering his 13th season.

Brian Young will be 30 years old, weighs right around 300 pounds, entering his 9th season and coming off injury.

Kendrick Clancy will be 30 years old, weighs around 300 pounds, entering his 9th season while having 2 back to back average at best seasons.

So yes, DT is a weakness on the team but once you go back and read everything again, you will notice no one said it being the biggest weakness nor being more or less important than any other defensive position.

You yourself said that our run d was better. You yourself said that DTs at best would provide about 4 or more sacks per season. That being said, I would say our DT's were the LEAST of our problems short of DE. Yes, I would also love to pick up a young guy or even a couple of DT to start grooming.

You're entitled to your opinion... I'm fine with that.

The question here is the top 10 pick and picking a guy like Ellis or the kid from NCState. Are they TOP 10 caliber considering the holes we have in our lb and secondary corps? I think I understand enough about football and the draft to say ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Unless you're the man upstairs, no one really knows the answer to that. I'm sure of one thing though... Kiper, McShay, and other experts who have done extensive research and watched tons of film on these guys certainly feel as if they're worthy of top picks. Also Balmer is from North Carolina... not NC State.

When your going to have guys like Rivers, hopefully Jenkins, Cason, Phillips etc availble and to pass on them for an agreeably undersized DT in Ellis, you'd just be crazy. If we pick a DT with the 10th pick, Payton will be making a monumental error.

It certainly wouldn't be crazy if he turns out to be an All Pro DT.

Talk to any successful GM (and I heard this the other day) and they'll say you first build a dominating defense with a high caliber secondary. We certainly don't have that. Course Jonathon Sullivan proves that, now didn't he?

Anyone notice why Dre Bly and Champ Bailey had down years compared to Charles Woodson and Al Harris? I wonder why.

Games are won in the trenches and you heard that it's better to build the secondary first. Right. Who are these successful GM's that said this?

I don't understand why you bring up Sullivan... it doesn't prove anything except draft picks are a crap shoot. For every bust DT, I can easily find a bust LB, CB, S, WR, QB, RB, OL, and DE.

No time to develop with that #10 pick. We've already had our redshirt first round pick. We need a guy that will be ready to contribute come September.

Everyone coming into this league needs developmental time. Hopefully whoever we draft this year, will be more polished and ready to contribute sooner than later. But I certainly understand what you're saying.

hagan714 · 01-22-2008, 08:37 PM

Youth is needed at DT just like every other position on defense. End of story. Now I want the saints to sign FA and draft a DT or two and let them slug it out in training camp. Just make sure they got upside and are young. Thats all I have to say.

01-20-2008, 12:31 AM	#12
NarwhalHunter 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Hattiesburger with Cheese Posts: 146 Blog Entries: 1	Re: I want your opinions. I think Payton is more inclined to trade down than Haz was. We traded down to get Harper and Evans in the '06 draft (and took Faine and Hollis in those trades). Same with Young and what basically became the Pittman pick.

01-21-2008, 02:01 AM	#13
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,089 Blog Entries: 1	Re: I want your opinions. Originally Posted by butcheverett First things first, I love this board! Secondly, I'd love to see us get a Top Notch corner for a change and not someone's left overs! Welcome Butch. I'm with you on Deuce. Give me Bryant Johnson and leave the offense alone. On defense, I'd like a big time player especially in the secondary. Asante Samuel will demand a lot of money but I'm all for getting him. Especially since McKenzie will be out for most, if not all, of next season. Asomugha would be great also. I'd even be happy if the Saints got Drayton Florence from San Diego. I'm with Papz on Briggs in that he's pretty good but may be overrated. He may be a bit overrated but I wouldn't be too upset if the Saints picked him up. Suggs would be a great pick up. Haynesworth played well this year but the dude is a nut. Sure he behaved well this year but once a nut, always a nut. He stomped on Gurodes head not once but twice last year and that makes me skeptical. I'm cautiously optimistic about this off-season. Sean Payton has said that he realizes that the defense is crap and that he plans to make big changes on that side of the ball. We'll see about that.
	"...it's good to have friends, no matter where they are."--JOESAM2002

01-22-2008, 08:13 AM	#14
WhoDatQB Boondock Saint Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: F***ing Atlanta Posts: 322	Re: I want your opinions. Originally Posted by iceshack149 Welcome Butch. I'm with you on Deuce. Give me Bryant Johnson and leave the offense alone. On defense, I'd like a big time player especially in the secondary. Asante Samuel will demand a lot of money but I'm all for getting him. Especially since McKenzie will be out for most, if not all, of next season. Asomugha would be great also. I'd even be happy if the Saints got Drayton Florence from San Diego. I'm with Papz on Briggs in that he's pretty good but may be overrated. He may be a bit overrated but I wouldn't be too upset if the Saints picked him up. Suggs would be a great pick up. Haynesworth played well this year but the dude is a nut. Sure he behaved well this year but once a nut, always a nut. He stomped on Gurodes head not once but twice last year and that makes me skeptical. I'm cautiously optimistic about this off-season. Sean Payton has said that he realizes that the defense is crap and that he plans to make big changes on that side of the ball. We'll see about that. ================== Bryant Johnson from Arizona? Forget Williams from Detroit, Johnson is better than all the WR's on this team save Colston, and we can get him much more cheaply. McKenzie will be, or should be out all next year. He tore his ACL in what second to last game? Depending upon they type of surgery available to him he could be back in 6 months. I had an left knee ACL explosion and had surgery on it. There were two options 1. Harvest tendon from the knee and put it in the ACL's place. You get weak about 3-4 weeks into your rehab as your body notices it is not a ligament and remakes the tendon into a ligament. This version took much longer but was cheaper. 2. Cadaver ligament. This is the option I went with. I did strength training with the busted ligament to keep my leg and knee in shape before the surgery(I was in college and had to wait until spring break to have the surgery). I went in first thing Monday morning for my surgery. I was on the range at the golf course on Friday with my surgeon and physical therapist. Now I was not hitting full shots, and I was wearing a brace. However the surgeon and PT told me It would have taken 8 weeks or more doing the surgery the other way. I do not know if this is a viable option for athletes or if even available at all any more. My surgeon was the knee and joint surgeon for UNC, Duke, and NC State team sports. He recommended it for me, although as a golfer I doubt I ever put as much stress on it as a pro football player does. I was running hitting full shots and walking the golf course the next Friday after the first. I was playing basketball and tennis four weeks later. I was physically healed 100% based on scans and doctors evaluation 3 months after the surgery. Now as far as mentally 100% that took another year to fully trust myself on that leg. Ok now on to the rest, I would love to see us trade down, however it takes two to tango. Just because we want to move down does not mean we can. There are so many CB's in the draft this year that a trade down would be GREAT. Trade down pick up an additional 2 or 3 rounder(depending upon where that pick is located) and draft a DT, LB and CB with our first three picks. I would love to see the guy from the Raiders or Asante, but will the FO pony up the dough considering we will have to pony it up for Colston? We have to pick up and MAN 2 MAN CB (or two)in FA as well, because I just do not see McKenzie making his way onto the field until 7-8 games in and I am scared of a Thomas/Craft duo in the secondary. Briggs, better than what we have but not worth what he will want in a contract. product of his position in the system which he plays. Haynesworth, if I could have a healthy Haynesworth and the way he played this year, then hell yeah. However, he is either STUPID or INSANE, neither of which would I like to see on this team.

01-22-2008, 09:34 AM	#15
WVSaint 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: West Virginia Posts: 807	Re: I want your opinions. Originally Posted by saintsmissile Please someone explain to me WHY we need to draft a DT with our first pick? Our run defense was about the only aspect of our defense that was improved and solid. Granted Lake is average, but Thomas, Young (when healthy) et al did a pretty damn good job. With our LB's and secondary OBVIOUSLY being the worst part of our team, why pick DT? I would think the priority would be replacing BUM Bullocks or BUM David or BUM Simeneau or BUM Shanle! Because our DTs our old and we get little to no pressure on the QB. Its not gonna matter whos in our secondary, when you give a pro QB time to pick you apart hes gonna do just that.

01-22-2008, 09:43 AM	#16
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,682	Re: I want your opinions. Yup... age and lack of pass rush. Our run defense was good last year but with teams being able to throw on us at will... it didn't give teams a reason to run the ball on us. Think of the Oakland Raiders... their secondary has been pretty good the last two years, but a big part of that is due to the fact teams absolutely maul them running the football. Now we don't absolutely need to draft a DT with our first pick... DT might not be the BPA at 10. We do however need to draft a young guy to develop.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way.

01-19-2008, 06:44 PM	#11
butcheverett Rookie Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ft Washington, MD Posts: 4	Re: I want your opinions. First things first, I love this board! Secondly, I'd love to see us get a Top Notch corner for a change and not someone's left overs!

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01-22-2008, 10:02 AM	#17
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,682	Re: I want your opinions. I'm well aware DT's don't usually put up big sack numbers. 4 sacks a season for DT's is considered pretty good for that position. What is meant by lack of pass rush is the ability of a defensive tackle to occupy blockers freeing up our defensive ends. I would have thought that would have been quite obvious. If you don't think DT's play an important role in the success of our secondary, you sure you watch and understand football? But anyways off the top of my head, Kevin Williams and Rod Coleman are two very good pass rushers at DT.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way.

01-22-2008, 10:20 AM	#18
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,647	Re: I want your opinions. Originally Posted by papz Yup... age and lack of pass rush. Our run defense was good last year but with teams being able to throw on us at will... it didn't give teams a reason to run the ball on us. Think of the Oakland Raiders... their secondary has been pretty good the last two years, but a big part of that is due to the fact teams absolutely maul them running the football. Exactly. The Saints needs another big athletic body in the middle to suck up double teams to keep the new MLB clean against the run and to generate a pass rush up the middle without having to blitz all the time. Now we don't absolutely need to draft a DT with our first pick... DT might not be the BPA at 10. BDPA. I'd be ticked even if the Saints picked a stud OL, much less any other offensive player, with that #10 pick. That pick has to be for an impact defensive starter in an area of need. Think about the fact that Patrick Willis was picked #11 last year. 174 tackles! WOW! Even the DT from Lousiville (Okoyah?) selected at #10 has a force and had 5.5 sacks from the DT position. The #10 pick has to be an impact defensive player. It cannot just be the BPA. We do however need to draft a young guy to develop. No time to develop with that #10 pick. We've already had our redshirt first round pick. We need a guy that will be ready to contribute come September. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

01-22-2008, 11:15 AM	#19
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,682	Re: I want your opinions. Originally Posted by saintsmissile I understand football just fine. I undestand that we virtually had the same DTs' from the year we went to the NFCCG and pass rush was never mentioned that season. Yet now, all of a sudden, our DTs are one of our biggest weaknesses. To say that DT is more of a need on this team that LB, CB or S and you are burying your head in the sand. Hollis Thomas will be 34 years old, weighs easily over 340 pounds, and will be entering his 13th season. Brian Young will be 30 years old, weighs right around 300 pounds, entering his 9th season and coming off injury. Kendrick Clancy will be 30 years old, weighs around 300 pounds, entering his 9th season while having 2 back to back average at best seasons. So yes, DT is a weakness on the team but once you go back and read everything again, you will notice no one said it being the biggest weakness nor being more or less important than any other defensive position. You yourself said that our run d was better. You yourself said that DTs at best would provide about 4 or more sacks per season. That being said, I would say our DT's were the LEAST of our problems short of DE. Yes, I would also love to pick up a young guy or even a couple of DT to start grooming. You're entitled to your opinion... I'm fine with that. The question here is the top 10 pick and picking a guy like Ellis or the kid from NCState. Are they TOP 10 caliber considering the holes we have in our lb and secondary corps? I think I understand enough about football and the draft to say ABSOLUTELY NOT! Unless you're the man upstairs, no one really knows the answer to that. I'm sure of one thing though... Kiper, McShay, and other experts who have done extensive research and watched tons of film on these guys certainly feel as if they're worthy of top picks. Also Balmer is from North Carolina... not NC State. When your going to have guys like Rivers, hopefully Jenkins, Cason, Phillips etc availble and to pass on them for an agreeably undersized DT in Ellis, you'd just be crazy. If we pick a DT with the 10th pick, Payton will be making a monumental error. It certainly wouldn't be crazy if he turns out to be an All Pro DT. Talk to any successful GM (and I heard this the other day) and they'll say you first build a dominating defense with a high caliber secondary. We certainly don't have that. Course Jonathon Sullivan proves that, now didn't he? Anyone notice why Dre Bly and Champ Bailey had down years compared to Charles Woodson and Al Harris? I wonder why. Games are won in the trenches and you heard that it's better to build the secondary first. Right. Who are these successful GM's that said this? I don't understand why you bring up Sullivan... it doesn't prove anything except draft picks are a crap shoot. For every bust DT, I can easily find a bust LB, CB, S, WR, QB, RB, OL, and DE. No time to develop with that #10 pick. We've already had our redshirt first round pick. We need a guy that will be ready to contribute come September. Everyone coming into this league needs developmental time. Hopefully whoever we draft this year, will be more polished and ready to contribute sooner than later. But I certainly understand what you're saying.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way. Last edited by papz; 01-22-2008 at 11:18 AM..

01-22-2008, 08:37 PM	#20
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: I want your opinions. Youth is needed at DT just like every other position on defense. End of story. Now I want the saints to sign FA and draft a DT or two and let them slug it out in training camp. Just make sure they got upside and are young. Thats all I have to say.