SaintFanInATLHELL

Question: Substitute Eric Johnson and Billy Miller into the above question.

On our offense the TE is the 4th option at best. Would the Saints be able to exploit this and become a huge threat.

The Saints TE had more catches, yards, and TDs than Shockey. So exactly why are they not already a huge threat?

And I'm going to pound my point into submission: Johnson and Miller accomplish this without any drama. Is upgrading the TE position, which you admit is a 4th option worth the drama? Worth the cost (most likely a 1st round draft pick next year or a starting player)?

Talent? Yes. Drama? Yes. Cost? Hefty.

Can some Shockey Jockey please address the issues of attitude and cost? You guys are really losing on the production argument.

Pass

SFIAH

Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO

Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

SapperSaint

So exactly why are they not already a huge threat?


Because Billy and Eric are not household names. We are hearing a name we all know and feel that he is a better player than who we have now. I can't say is or isn't right now, just because we have beat this dead horse into a puddle of mud. If JS does become a member of this team if truely feel Drew can and will control him and put him in his place.

JKool

SFIAH, you are the one-man anti-Shockey show these days.

I'm getting on board with what you are saying, but I have to take issue with the so called "productivity" argument.

What is the famous saying? Apples and Oranges (or Gorillas, if you prefer).

Usually I'm a big fan of the stats arguments, but a little more has to go into this one before you get "roughly equal or better" productivity as a conclusion. Here is what I take the argument to be:

P1. Number of catches and yards gained is a good indicator of production.
P2. Two of our TEs when combined have roughly the same number of catches and yards gained.
C. Our two TEs have the same production as Shockey.

That sounds ok (though I have no idea of P2 is true).

The problem is that the Conclusion (C) includes a third element, the team they played for. So here are the two additional premises (though there may be more) that need to be argued before I'll completely buy the conclusion.

P3 - The Giants and the Saints use the TE in roughly the same way.
P4 - The Giants and the Saints faced roughly similar talented Defenses last season.

I think it is possible that these are both true, but I don't know. To convince me on the productivity point, at least some work has to be done here.

I suspect P3 is false (again, just my best guess) and this will make it difficult to make the "equal productivity" argument work.

Another way to go would be to show that the statistical points "wash out" the relative differences in "the way the TE is used" in both schemes. I think that would be pretty convincing too.

I do, however, recognize that the productivity argument is just one piece of the whole puzzle for your claim that we shouldn't pursue Shockey (and the other parts stand on their own). I just think that this part could be a bit more convincing.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

Tobias-Reiper

... couple of things you guys are overlooking in your analysis:

1.- Drew Brees
2.- Sean Payton

The only reason why the TE is the 4th option in the Saints offense is because they are not that good. Our best TE last year was Billy Miller, not because of the stats, but because the plays he made.

Now, are Billy Miller/Eric Johnson as good as Shockey?
Are Billy Miller/Eric Johnson as good as Shockey if Eli is throwing the ball to them and Kevin Gilbride is calling the plays?

... I don't think so.

Papa Voodoo

Have any of our TEs been to the Pro Bowl and how many times comapred to Shockey? Guys, If Peyton wants him there is a good reason.

Memnoch_TP

Because he was with a team that DESERVED being thrown under the Bus. Because ALL the Giant players have been throwing Coughlin under the bus since he got there! Because WE ARE NOT a screwed up team!

God, you people act like you have never had a difference in attitude based on your enviornment! Ever had a job you hated? You went in to work thinking "here I go again, grrr." and then you get a new job and all is good? That has NEVER happened to you?

He makes us better. Period.

LivnaLieTimay

There's no denying that talent-wise, Shockey is a top 5 talent. However, there's more to football that being talented. I live up in NY, all my friends are Giants fans and their fan base is 50/50 on him. You have to weigh his talents against his attitude and I for one don't want him as a Saint. Couple things I want to point out about him:

1) This guy ripped on the gay community saying he wouldn't stand for one of his teammates being gay. Oh, that's being a great teammate. Just the guy I want on my team...

2) A year later he calls Bill Parcells a derogatory name for being gay. He was never his coach but felt the need to throw him under the bus.

3) After losing a game to Seattle he throws his current coach under the bus saying "We got outplayed, and we got outcoached. Write that down."

4) The Giants went on to win the Super Bowl after he went down with an injury. The whole team got better when he went out of the lineup and that isn't a coincidence. He demands the ball all the time and when he doesn't he becomes a distraction. He's extremely selfish.

5) Having watched many Giants games, I can tell you this guy drops way too many touchdowns. He's solid between the 20's but once you get into the redzone, he disappears. The last thing we need is another guy dropping passes for Drew.

6) Lastly, the Giants are asking way to much for him. I'd much rather continue building our defense. Our offense is Super Bowl caliber. Team's with worse offenses than ours have won SB's in the last decade. We already traded away a draft pick for Vilma and I'm fine with that because we got a defensive starter. Unless Shockey can also play linebacker or corner at a pro bowl level, he won't help our team get to the next level.

JUST SAY NO TO JEREMY!!!

Euphoria

Thats funny because the team wasn't so screwed up when he got hurt, all of a sudden they become a SB team.

They go thru the play offs and beat every Division Champion without a talent like him. Ya think you would need all your A-game talent on the field going up against champion teams.

He didn't make the Giants better... they got better when he got hurt and he had to take a seat in the cheap seats. They got so much better without him they went on to beat the Patriots in the SB.

Euphoria

Ok lets say we get Jeremy "ME, Selfish" Shockey.

I think we should start a pool on what will be the reasons he wants to be traded from us.

1. Food SUCKs!
2. Cajuns are gay!
3. Sean doesn't know his butt from a whole in the ground.

JKool

Conventional wisdom has it that Defense won the game for the Giants. Last I checked, Shockey didn't play defense.

I'm not saying I ascribe to this view (because I don't). However, before someone else says that Shockey's injury won the Giants the SB, I suggest they also address this argument (that is was Defense that really wins championships).

Furthermore, it is difficult to see how one can believe the only evidence for football related claims is watching a team play can also believe that they somehow "watch Shockey's not playing help the Giants win".