TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

pakowitz · 05-18-2008, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

The 08 schedule is tougher than 07 !

The opponents have upgraded. What have we done.

lol all i can do is laugh at this...

The only bona fide upgrade has been Ellis and McCray. This will help somewhat. But against elite teams ??

Vilma... does that ring a bell?

We have to do more. RB / TE / DB still a weakness that teams will exploit.

we have solid depth at RB, i dont know why ur still harping on this...

TEs are servicable... with all the other talent on offense, this is really a position of luxury.. not a need...

we have good depth at CB and with an improved pass rush, this area should be much improved...

im really not understanding the point ur trying to make... we have solid depth at every position ur are talking about... im not saying they are all superstars but your ARENT going to have that at every position...

we have upgraded every major need this past offseason and the saints should be one of the dominant teams in the NFC for quite awhile

504Highlander · 05-18-2008, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by pakowitz

really.. are u serious?

in 06, we had deuce who came off of surgery just like this year and had one of the better years in his career, reggie.. who was a rookie in 06 and is now poised for a breakout year.. and stecker, who was a descent back up then and still is... and now we also have a good young player in PT..

i think you are undervaluing the presence of reggie.. he takes alot of heat off of the other guys just b/c of the gameplans that defenses put up just to stop him.. and if you think that they arent.. then you are sorely mistaken...

TE, which hasnt been a threat in N.O. for years wasnt really a factor in 06.. we still had the #1 offense in the league.. and in 07, we had the #5 offense.. even with an upgraded TE position from 06...

DB has been improved.. 06 we had fred thomas who was horrible and jay bellamy who was also horrible.... last year we had JD who was also horrible but had been playing in a zone heavy defense for the previous 4 years... i look JD to have a much better year, Harper has taken over for bellamy and has improved the play at the SS position...the addition of Gay will improve the depth at CB and McKenzie is coming off his best year as a DB and should be back to full form by the start of the season.. T. Porter an U. Young should both improve this year and will be fighting for a starting job either next year of the year after...

in addition to that... i think you are looking at the wrong area of problems.. id say our biggest problem areas in 07 were DT, LB and CB and Oline.. we have improved the oline.. gotten a probowl MLB.. drafted a run stuffing penetrating DT who will take pressure off of w. smith and c. grant.. signed depth at LB and DE which will help our guys from getting worn out... we have signed several CBs which give us depth at the position...

id say our biggest problem in 08, is adding a better backup qb and finding another receiver to compliment Colston...

Brunell is a serviceable backup to Brees. However, there may still be better out there. Tim Rattay, or maybe Gradkowski from Tampa or Redman from ATL.

With all these O Linemen on the roster, they ought to be able to protect Brees.
On that note, protecting Brees, as well as, helping the running game is why we need to upgrade the TE position significantly. Maybe Kyle Brady or similar.
I had my eye on Brad Cottam / Kellen Davis / Martellus Bennet in the Draft.

I'm pissed that we didn't get Matt Forte. That would have probably shut me up for a while. LOL

pakowitz · 05-18-2008, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

Brunell is a serviceable backup to Brees. However, there may still be better out there. Tim Rattay, or maybe Gradkowski from Tampa or Redman from ATL.

brunell is good enough to get some wins but we will only go as far as brees can take us...

With all these O Linemen on the roster, they ought to be able to protect Brees.

which they did... only giving up 18 sacks last year.. which i believe was best in the league...

helping the running game is why we need to upgrade the TE position significantly. Maybe Kyle Brady or similar.
I had my eye on Brad Cottam / Kellen Davis / Martellus Bennet in the Draft.

huh? how will getting any of those pass catching TEs upgrade the running game?

I'm pissed that we didn't get Matt Forte. That would have probably shut me up for a while. LOL

why would we need another backup to reggie bush...? he isnt a bruiser like deuce either... ill agree that we could use another big back, but we do not need another slashing back.. we have 3 of those already...

504Highlander · 05-18-2008, 05:15 PM

Vilma... does that ring a bell?

Let's talk about him when he actually takes the field and not before.

we have solid depth at RB, i dont know why ur still harping on this...

Losing Deuce in 07 severely hampered our O. We don't have him back yet and probably won't for 08. Can you say 'microfracture surgery'?

TEs are servicable... with all the other talent on offense, this is really a position of luxury.. not a need...

Serviceable skill position players make it tough to get a team to the SB. TE's are key positions for Colts, Chargers, Steelers, Broncos. All of those teams have been to the SB

we have good depth at CB and with an improved pass rush, this area should be much improved...

More rookies and old veteran players do not equal better on the field production.

504Highlander · 05-18-2008, 05:26 PM

huh? how will getting any of those pass catching TEs upgrade the running game?

No, I meant real TE's, that can block in the running game as well as catch in the passing game.

why would we need another backup to reggie bush...? he isnt a bruiser like deuce either... ill agree that we could use another big back, but we do not need another slashing back.. we have 3 of those already...

Deuce 6'1" / 230lbs.

Matt Forte 6'2" / 232lbs, over 2300 yards rushing in one season. 4 back to back games with over 1000 yards rushing.

I don't have Matt Forte listed as a Scat Back.

pakowitz · 05-18-2008, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

Let's talk about him when he actually takes the field and not before.

why not? he is arguably the best LB the saints have had in over 5 or 6 years... just b/c he hasnt suited up for the saints yet doesnt mean a thing...

Losing Deuce in 07 severely hampered our O. We don't have him back yet and probably won't for 08. Can you say 'microfracture surgery'?

yes i can.. but obviously you dont keep up with recent news... since he is already running and will be ready for training camp...

Serviceable skill position players make it tough to get a team to the SB. TE's are key positions for Colts, Chargers, Steelers, Broncos. All of those teams have been to the SB

chargers havent been to the SB in 10 or 15 years.. the colts also have payton manning, marvin harrison, reggie wayne, an awesome Oline, and a very fast and punishing defense... the steelers made it to the SB with a good defense and a great running game.. the broncos had john elway and terrell davis.. as well as a beast of an Oline..

what about the patriots, or eagles? or seahawks? or bears? none of those teams had really great TEs, yet still made the superbowl...

my point is we dont need an awesome TE to make the SB, it is a luxury, not a need... i would love to have gotten shockey, i think he would have made our offense even more unstoppable.. but it wasnt a need..

More rookies and old veteran players do not equal better on the field production.

no but experience and learning the system does...

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

No, I meant real TE's, that can block in the running game as well as catch in the passing game.

besides Eric Johnson, the TEs we have are better blockers then pass catchers...

Deuce 6'1" / 230lbs.

Matt Forte 6'2" / 232lbs, over 2300 yards rushing in one season.

I don't have Matt Forte listed as a Scat Back.

Matt Forte
Height: 6-1
Weight: 224 lbs.

and he isnt the bruiser that his height an weight suggest.. he is more of a finesse back then pounder

4 back to back games with over 1000 yards rushing.

against Memphis, Army, UAB, and Southern Methodist

thats almost impressive... he had 73 yards against a real defense when they played LSU... 43 when they played Miss St...

504Highlander · 05-18-2008, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by pakowitz

why not? he is arguably the best LB the saints have had in over 5 or 6 years... just b/c he hasnt suited up for the saints yet doesnt mean a thing...

I will comment on Vilma and his repaired knee after training camp

Originally Posted by pakowitz

yes i can.. but obviously you dont keep up with recent news... since he is already running and will be ready for training camp...

I confess that I am not a doctor, but after reading articles online about other players who have had this procedure done, it seems to be common for the recovery to take from one to two years.

Originally Posted by pakowitz

chargers havent been to the SB in 10 or 15 years.. the colts also have payton manning, marvin harrison, reggie wayne, an awesome Oline, and a very fast and punishing defense... the steelers made it to the SB with a good defense and a great running game.. the broncos had john elway and terrell davis.. as well as a beast of an Oline..

what about the patriots, or eagles? or seahawks? or bears? none of those teams had really great TEs, yet still made the superbowl...

Did you watch the Saints play the Colts and Bears in 06 and 07? Dallas Clark and Ben Utecht for the Colts and Desmond Clark and Greg Olsen for the Bears.
They killed the Saints!!

Gonzalez/Chiefs, Gates/Chargers, Daniels/Texans, Scheffler/Broncos, Witten/Cowboys, Ben Watson and Kyle Brady/Pats, JerramyStevens/Seahawks, LJ Smith(Franchise Tag)/Eagles, Kevin Boss and Jeremy Shockey/NYG, et cetera, et cetera.

Originally Posted by pakowitz

my point is we dont need an awesome TE to make the SB, it is a luxury, not a need... i would love to have gotten shockey, i think he would have made our offense even more unstoppable.. but it wasnt a need..

Don't you want the Saints to win ???

Originally Posted by pakowitz

no but experience and learning the system does...

The Eagles get it, the Raiders get it, the Cowboys get it. CB talent is rare and when you have an opportunity to get it - you get it !!!

504Highlander · 05-18-2008, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by pakowitz

Matt Forte
Height: 6-1
Weight: 224 lbs.

and he isnt the bruiser that his height an weight suggest.. he is more of a finesse back then pounder

He is listed now at 6'2" 232lbs. Which listing is more accurate?

Originally Posted by pakowitz

against Memphis, Army, UAB, and Southern Methodist

thats almost impressive... he had 73 yards against a real defense when they played LSU... 43 when they played Miss St...

If you downgrade the defenses he played, then you should also factor in the talent of his own team-mates at Tulane. I don't think his O-Line was invited to the Senior Bowl.
But he was invited to the Senior Bowl and was named Offensive MVP.

Apparently, the Bears thought more highly of his abilities than you do.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-18-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

While the Bears took Tulane RB Matt Forte and TE Kellen Davis and Chiefs took TE Brad Cottam, the Saints opted for CB Tracy Porter in the 2nd round.

The Saints were 30th in the league in pass defense last year.

The Saints gave up 32 TDs in the air last year.

The Saints gave up 54 pass completions of 20 yards or more last year.

The Saints gave up 15 pass completions of 40 yards or more last year (tied for the league high).

On the other hand the offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year.

I think taking a cornerback was a prudent move.

In time, I am optimistic that Porter will develop into a good NFL corner.

If his job is "Dude, cover that receiver and don't let him catch the ball." I think that Porter may actually turn out to be a good NFL corner this year.

Meanwhile the Saints have three BIG problems RIGHT NOW:

I'll take that as a IYHO.

No starting-caliber RB behind Deuce (2ACL's and a Microfracture surgery)

Hmmm. Let's examine that.

PT23 started against the Bears. He only rushed for a buck and caught a buck in passes in that start.

Reggie started against the Seahawks. Rushed for 97 with a 5.1 YPC average in that game.

Aaron Stecker started against Atlanta. Rushed for 100 yards on 20 carries.

Now while I will admit that for each this was their best performances last year, it shows that they have the capability to start for this team.

Payton doesn't run the ball with any consistency no matter who is back there. In 2006 Deuce only got 1057 yards on 243 carries. That's only 15 carries per game.

We have backs that will do the job the offense needs done.

No starting-caliber TE period.

Again please justify. The Saints two top TE caught 74 passes for 709 yards and 4 TD last year. Each of those stats were better than the coveted Jeremy Shockey. It's only one less catch than Gates (though admittedly his yards and TDs were much better)

A lot of 'junk' at CB and S ( Aged and injured vets, unproven rookies, and safeties who get lost )

And how exactly were they supposed to address that issue? There was only one premier CB in free agency. I understand the Saints made a play. He chose to go somewhere else.

The Saints signed 2 free agents and drafted a CB in the 2nd round. They also drafted a CB in the 3rd round last year. They signed a smart ballhawking safety in KK last year.

What exactly do you want them to do at the position?

Anyone else think these are urgent problems to address?

I'm sure many will. I don't.

At RB we're running 4 deep. The problem seems significant last year because the top 3 backs all got injured. PT23 showed his heart in that Chicago game, and now Coach Payton will trust the guy enough to give him some playing time. He'll spell Deuce, which will make him available deeper into the season.

Could we benefit from having an All Pro TE? Pf course. But the guys we have have certainly proved serviceable, especially Billy Miller. I'm going to trust the staff on this one, because both Johnson and Miller were free agents, and the Saints resigned both guys. If they didn't fit into the scheme, they could have simply walked away from both of them.

The secondary problems have a primary cause from the front 7. Safeties needing to be up for run support coupled with a lack of pass rush left them exposed. When you make an insurance salesman (Redmond) and two rookies (Gray and Mohr) look like Pro Bowl QBs then you have a problem up front in addition to the secondary. With a significant upgrade both at DT and MLB, the pressure will shift from our secondary to the opposing QB. The Saints secondary is going to look at lot better in 2008.

The only urgency at this point is health. Guys like McKenzie, Deuce, Grant, Vilma, and Morgan have to be healthy and ready to contribute.

In closing I can see talking about the secondary. Their performance last year was flat awful. But I really don't understand the continual pounding on the offense. This offense runs off Drew Brees. As long as dude is upright, then everything else falls into place. Last year there were changes in receivers, backs, TE, and O-line positions. Still finished 4th in yards and 12th in points. Consider the constant in all of that.

SFIAH

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-18-2008, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

Saints had one of the best D's in the league in the 80's, but it wasn't enough.
The Ravens have one of the best D's, but they have not returned to the SB.

My analysis is that you have to have both good O and good D in order to go deep into the playoffs.

Good D is not enough. Teams that consistently get to the playoffs and SB, have excellent running games, as well as good D.

I think effective running games is more like it. Think of the 49ers in the 80s. Roger Craig didn't rack up huge rushing numbers. But when he ran it was effective.

To help your running game, you must have a passing threat, et cetera.

To have a perimeter running game but no bruiser up the middle, lets your opponent, focus on stopping screens and slants.

PT23 has shown the ability to run the ball inside.

Also while Deuce is certainly not going to be 100%, he will be available enough to do the job. Say he rushes 8-10 times a game and PT23/Bush/Stecker gets the other carries. That'll be enough to counterbalance the passing game.

If Sean Payton has shown nothing else in the last two years, it's that the Saints offense is a passing offense. The running game needs to be effective, even if it's only going to be 20-25 carries.

With no TE threat, DB's can smother the WR's, and so on.

How is 74 catches last year not a threat? Teams that were stupid enough to ignore Miller and Johnson got burned by Brees over and over again.

Why are you even bothering to talk about the offense anyway? It bears repeating that they were 4th in yards and 12th in scoring in the league. You're coming into this discussion as if they were totally ineffectual last year.

While I'm the first to admit that this offense does have issues when it comes up against a top flight defense (Indy, Tennesee , Tampa last year for example), there are certainly enough weapons to counter the issues they present.

The elite teams get this and configure their teams to be effective at all of the above.

Perimeter runners, between the tackles runners, receiving tight ends, blocking tight ends, all help to keep the opponents D honest.

The Saints have all of these elements, and use all of these elements. I swear you're talking about the Ravens or Tennesee with an ineffectual offense.

I don't feel like we have all these bases covered at the moment.

Noted. However, at the end of the day the new player selection season is pretty much over. So what exactly are you proposing to do?

SFIAH

05-18-2008, 04:59 PM	#31
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by 504Highlander The 08 schedule is tougher than 07 ! The opponents have upgraded. What have we done. lol all i can do is laugh at this... The only bona fide upgrade has been Ellis and McCray. This will help somewhat. But against elite teams ?? Vilma... does that ring a bell? We have to do more. RB / TE / DB still a weakness that teams will exploit. we have solid depth at RB, i dont know why ur still harping on this... TEs are servicable... with all the other talent on offense, this is really a position of luxury.. not a need... we have good depth at CB and with an improved pass rush, this area should be much improved... im really not understanding the point ur trying to make... we have solid depth at every position ur are talking about... im not saying they are all superstars but your ARENT going to have that at every position... we have upgraded every major need this past offseason and the saints should be one of the dominant teams in the NFC for quite awhile
	I Live In Beastmode!

05-18-2008, 05:00 PM	#32
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by pakowitz really.. are u serious? in 06, we had deuce who came off of surgery just like this year and had one of the better years in his career, reggie.. who was a rookie in 06 and is now poised for a breakout year.. and stecker, who was a descent back up then and still is... and now we also have a good young player in PT.. i think you are undervaluing the presence of reggie.. he takes alot of heat off of the other guys just b/c of the gameplans that defenses put up just to stop him.. and if you think that they arent.. then you are sorely mistaken... TE, which hasnt been a threat in N.O. for years wasnt really a factor in 06.. we still had the #1 offense in the league.. and in 07, we had the #5 offense.. even with an upgraded TE position from 06... DB has been improved.. 06 we had fred thomas who was horrible and jay bellamy who was also horrible.... last year we had JD who was also horrible but had been playing in a zone heavy defense for the previous 4 years... i look JD to have a much better year, Harper has taken over for bellamy and has improved the play at the SS position...the addition of Gay will improve the depth at CB and McKenzie is coming off his best year as a DB and should be back to full form by the start of the season.. T. Porter an U. Young should both improve this year and will be fighting for a starting job either next year of the year after... in addition to that... i think you are looking at the wrong area of problems.. id say our biggest problem areas in 07 were DT, LB and CB and Oline.. we have improved the oline.. gotten a probowl MLB.. drafted a run stuffing penetrating DT who will take pressure off of w. smith and c. grant.. signed depth at LB and DE which will help our guys from getting worn out... we have signed several CBs which give us depth at the position... id say our biggest problem in 08, is adding a better backup qb and finding another receiver to compliment Colston... Brunell is a serviceable backup to Brees. However, there may still be better out there. Tim Rattay, or maybe Gradkowski from Tampa or Redman from ATL. With all these O Linemen on the roster, they ought to be able to protect Brees. On that note, protecting Brees, as well as, helping the running game is why we need to upgrade the TE position significantly. Maybe Kyle Brady or similar. I had my eye on Brad Cottam / Kellen Davis / Martellus Bennet in the Draft. I'm pissed that we didn't get Matt Forte. That would have probably shut me up for a while. LOL
	If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

05-18-2008, 05:05 PM	#33
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by 504Highlander Brunell is a serviceable backup to Brees. However, there may still be better out there. Tim Rattay, or maybe Gradkowski from Tampa or Redman from ATL. brunell is good enough to get some wins but we will only go as far as brees can take us... With all these O Linemen on the roster, they ought to be able to protect Brees. which they did... only giving up 18 sacks last year.. which i believe was best in the league... helping the running game is why we need to upgrade the TE position significantly. Maybe Kyle Brady or similar. I had my eye on Brad Cottam / Kellen Davis / Martellus Bennet in the Draft. huh? how will getting any of those pass catching TEs upgrade the running game? I'm pissed that we didn't get Matt Forte. That would have probably shut me up for a while. LOL why would we need another backup to reggie bush...? he isnt a bruiser like deuce either... ill agree that we could use another big back, but we do not need another slashing back.. we have 3 of those already...

05-18-2008, 05:15 PM	#34
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Vilma... does that ring a bell? Let's talk about him when he actually takes the field and not before. we have solid depth at RB, i dont know why ur still harping on this... Losing Deuce in 07 severely hampered our O. We don't have him back yet and probably won't for 08. Can you say 'microfracture surgery'? TEs are servicable... with all the other talent on offense, this is really a position of luxury.. not a need... Serviceable skill position players make it tough to get a team to the SB. TE's are key positions for Colts, Chargers, Steelers, Broncos. All of those teams have been to the SB we have good depth at CB and with an improved pass rush, this area should be much improved... More rookies and old veteran players do not equal better on the field production.

05-18-2008, 05:26 PM	#35
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints huh? how will getting any of those pass catching TEs upgrade the running game? No, I meant real TE's, that can block in the running game as well as catch in the passing game. why would we need another backup to reggie bush...? he isnt a bruiser like deuce either... ill agree that we could use another big back, but we do not need another slashing back.. we have 3 of those already... Deuce 6'1" / 230lbs. Matt Forte 6'2" / 232lbs, over 2300 yards rushing in one season. 4 back to back games with over 1000 yards rushing. I don't have Matt Forte listed as a Scat Back.

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05-18-2008, 05:36 PM	#36
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Originally Posted by 504Highlander Let's talk about him when he actually takes the field and not before. why not? he is arguably the best LB the saints have had in over 5 or 6 years... just b/c he hasnt suited up for the saints yet doesnt mean a thing... Losing Deuce in 07 severely hampered our O. We don't have him back yet and probably won't for 08. Can you say 'microfracture surgery'? yes i can.. but obviously you dont keep up with recent news... since he is already running and will be ready for training camp... Serviceable skill position players make it tough to get a team to the SB. TE's are key positions for Colts, Chargers, Steelers, Broncos. All of those teams have been to the SB chargers havent been to the SB in 10 or 15 years.. the colts also have payton manning, marvin harrison, reggie wayne, an awesome Oline, and a very fast and punishing defense... the steelers made it to the SB with a good defense and a great running game.. the broncos had john elway and terrell davis.. as well as a beast of an Oline.. what about the patriots, or eagles? or seahawks? or bears? none of those teams had really great TEs, yet still made the superbowl... my point is we dont need an awesome TE to make the SB, it is a luxury, not a need... i would love to have gotten shockey, i think he would have made our offense even more unstoppable.. but it wasnt a need.. More rookies and old veteran players do not equal better on the field production. no but experience and learning the system does... Originally Posted by 504Highlander No, I meant real TE's, that can block in the running game as well as catch in the passing game. besides Eric Johnson, the TEs we have are better blockers then pass catchers... Deuce 6'1" / 230lbs. Matt Forte 6'2" / 232lbs, over 2300 yards rushing in one season. I don't have Matt Forte listed as a Scat Back. Matt Forte Height: 6-1 Weight: 224 lbs. and he isnt the bruiser that his height an weight suggest.. he is more of a finesse back then pounder 4 back to back games with over 1000 yards rushing. against Memphis, Army, UAB, and Southern Methodist thats almost impressive... he had 73 yards against a real defense when they played LSU... 43 when they played Miss St...
	I Live In Beastmode! Last edited by pakowitz; 05-18-2008 at 05:47 PM..

05-18-2008, 06:00 PM	#37
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by pakowitz why not? he is arguably the best LB the saints have had in over 5 or 6 years... just b/c he hasnt suited up for the saints yet doesnt mean a thing... I will comment on Vilma and his repaired knee after training camp Originally Posted by pakowitz yes i can.. but obviously you dont keep up with recent news... since he is already running and will be ready for training camp... I confess that I am not a doctor, but after reading articles online about other players who have had this procedure done, it seems to be common for the recovery to take from one to two years. Originally Posted by pakowitz chargers havent been to the SB in 10 or 15 years.. the colts also have payton manning, marvin harrison, reggie wayne, an awesome Oline, and a very fast and punishing defense... the steelers made it to the SB with a good defense and a great running game.. the broncos had john elway and terrell davis.. as well as a beast of an Oline.. what about the patriots, or eagles? or seahawks? or bears? none of those teams had really great TEs, yet still made the superbowl... Did you watch the Saints play the Colts and Bears in 06 and 07? Dallas Clark and Ben Utecht for the Colts and Desmond Clark and Greg Olsen for the Bears. They killed the Saints!! Gonzalez/Chiefs, Gates/Chargers, Daniels/Texans, Scheffler/Broncos, Witten/Cowboys, Ben Watson and Kyle Brady/Pats, JerramyStevens/Seahawks, LJ Smith(Franchise Tag)/Eagles, Kevin Boss and Jeremy Shockey/NYG, et cetera, et cetera. Originally Posted by pakowitz my point is we dont need an awesome TE to make the SB, it is a luxury, not a need... i would love to have gotten shockey, i think he would have made our offense even more unstoppable.. but it wasnt a need.. Don't you want the Saints to win ??? Originally Posted by pakowitz no but experience and learning the system does... The Eagles get it, the Raiders get it, the Cowboys get it. CB talent is rare and when you have an opportunity to get it - you get it !!!
	If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

05-18-2008, 06:18 PM	#38
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by pakowitz Matt Forte Height: 6-1 Weight: 224 lbs. and he isnt the bruiser that his height an weight suggest.. he is more of a finesse back then pounder He is listed now at 6'2" 232lbs. Which listing is more accurate? Originally Posted by pakowitz against Memphis, Army, UAB, and Southern Methodist thats almost impressive... he had 73 yards against a real defense when they played LSU... 43 when they played Miss St... If you downgrade the defenses he played, then you should also factor in the talent of his own team-mates at Tulane. I don't think his O-Line was invited to the Senior Bowl. But he was invited to the Senior Bowl and was named Offensive MVP. Apparently, the Bears thought more highly of his abilities than you do.

05-18-2008, 07:36 PM	#39
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,647	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by 504Highlander While the Bears took Tulane RB Matt Forte and TE Kellen Davis and Chiefs took TE Brad Cottam, the Saints opted for CB Tracy Porter in the 2nd round. The Saints were 30th in the league in pass defense last year. The Saints gave up 32 TDs in the air last year. The Saints gave up 54 pass completions of 20 yards or more last year. The Saints gave up 15 pass completions of 40 yards or more last year (tied for the league high). On the other hand the offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year. I think taking a cornerback was a prudent move. In time, I am optimistic that Porter will develop into a good NFL corner. If his job is "Dude, cover that receiver and don't let him catch the ball." I think that Porter may actually turn out to be a good NFL corner this year. Meanwhile the Saints have three BIG problems RIGHT NOW: I'll take that as a IYHO. No starting-caliber RB behind Deuce (2ACL's and a Microfracture surgery) Hmmm. Let's examine that. PT23 started against the Bears. He only rushed for a buck and caught a buck in passes in that start. Reggie started against the Seahawks. Rushed for 97 with a 5.1 YPC average in that game. Aaron Stecker started against Atlanta. Rushed for 100 yards on 20 carries. Now while I will admit that for each this was their best performances last year, it shows that they have the capability to start for this team. Payton doesn't run the ball with any consistency no matter who is back there. In 2006 Deuce only got 1057 yards on 243 carries. That's only 15 carries per game. We have backs that will do the job the offense needs done. No starting-caliber TE period. Again please justify. The Saints two top TE caught 74 passes for 709 yards and 4 TD last year. Each of those stats were better than the coveted Jeremy Shockey. It's only one less catch than Gates (though admittedly his yards and TDs were much better) A lot of 'junk' at CB and S ( Aged and injured vets, unproven rookies, and safeties who get lost ) And how exactly were they supposed to address that issue? There was only one premier CB in free agency. I understand the Saints made a play. He chose to go somewhere else. The Saints signed 2 free agents and drafted a CB in the 2nd round. They also drafted a CB in the 3rd round last year. They signed a smart ballhawking safety in KK last year. What exactly do you want them to do at the position? Anyone else think these are urgent problems to address? I'm sure many will. I don't. At RB we're running 4 deep. The problem seems significant last year because the top 3 backs all got injured. PT23 showed his heart in that Chicago game, and now Coach Payton will trust the guy enough to give him some playing time. He'll spell Deuce, which will make him available deeper into the season. Could we benefit from having an All Pro TE? Pf course. But the guys we have have certainly proved serviceable, especially Billy Miller. I'm going to trust the staff on this one, because both Johnson and Miller were free agents, and the Saints resigned both guys. If they didn't fit into the scheme, they could have simply walked away from both of them. The secondary problems have a primary cause from the front 7. Safeties needing to be up for run support coupled with a lack of pass rush left them exposed. When you make an insurance salesman (Redmond) and two rookies (Gray and Mohr) look like Pro Bowl QBs then you have a problem up front in addition to the secondary. With a significant upgrade both at DT and MLB, the pressure will shift from our secondary to the opposing QB. The Saints secondary is going to look at lot better in 2008. The only urgency at this point is health. Guys like McKenzie, Deuce, Grant, Vilma, and Morgan have to be healthy and ready to contribute. In closing I can see talking about the secondary. Their performance last year was flat awful. But I really don't understand the continual pounding on the offense. This offense runs off Drew Brees. As long as dude is upright, then everything else falls into place. Last year there were changes in receivers, backs, TE, and O-line positions. Still finished 4th in yards and 12th in points. Consider the constant in all of that. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good. Last edited by SaintFanInATLHELL; 05-18-2008 at 07:38 PM..

05-18-2008, 07:56 PM	#40
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,647	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by 504Highlander Saints had one of the best D's in the league in the 80's, but it wasn't enough. The Ravens have one of the best D's, but they have not returned to the SB. My analysis is that you have to have both good O and good D in order to go deep into the playoffs. Good D is not enough. Teams that consistently get to the playoffs and SB, have excellent running games, as well as good D. I think effective running games is more like it. Think of the 49ers in the 80s. Roger Craig didn't rack up huge rushing numbers. But when he ran it was effective. To help your running game, you must have a passing threat, et cetera. To have a perimeter running game but no bruiser up the middle, lets your opponent, focus on stopping screens and slants. PT23 has shown the ability to run the ball inside. Also while Deuce is certainly not going to be 100%, he will be available enough to do the job. Say he rushes 8-10 times a game and PT23/Bush/Stecker gets the other carries. That'll be enough to counterbalance the passing game. If Sean Payton has shown nothing else in the last two years, it's that the Saints offense is a passing offense. The running game needs to be effective, even if it's only going to be 20-25 carries. With no TE threat, DB's can smother the WR's, and so on. How is 74 catches last year not a threat? Teams that were stupid enough to ignore Miller and Johnson got burned by Brees over and over again. Why are you even bothering to talk about the offense anyway? It bears repeating that they were 4th in yards and 12th in scoring in the league. You're coming into this discussion as if they were totally ineffectual last year. While I'm the first to admit that this offense does have issues when it comes up against a top flight defense (Indy, Tennesee , Tampa last year for example), there are certainly enough weapons to counter the issues they present. The elite teams get this and configure their teams to be effective at all of the above. Perimeter runners, between the tackles runners, receiving tight ends, blocking tight ends, all help to keep the opponents D honest. The Saints have all of these elements, and use all of these elements. I swear you're talking about the Ravens or Tennesee with an ineffectual offense. I don't feel like we have all these bases covered at the moment. Noted. However, at the end of the day the new player selection season is pretty much over. So what exactly are you proposing to do? SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

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