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TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by 504Highlander I don't feel your sense of urgency in your remarks. There is a window of opportunity for teams and I don't want it to close before Brees is past his prime. The time is now and ...

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Old 05-18-2008, 08:33 PM   #41
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

Originally Posted by 504Highlander View Post
I don't feel your sense of urgency in your remarks. There is a window of opportunity for teams and I don't want it to close before Brees is past his prime.

The time is now and we are nowhere near ready to take on the elite teams, given injuries, lack of depth and mediocre players at key positions.
No it is not urgency as much a accepting facts. 3 years of draft and FA have upgraded a lot of positions but there still some areas that need to be addressed. You listed some. They will come. maybe this yrar we can see an improvement in TE production with the group we have or we may add a player before the season starts to help out. As for the TE position I would love to have draft one but the trade in the first killed that idea. I had my eyes on
Martellus Bennett , Texas A&M Decent route runner..Above average blocker..serious raw talent ...considerable upside
I was hoping the third but he never made it out of the second. besides after the trades we never had a shoot any of them. By the time the fifth round came around all the good TE were done. Oh well so be it. I like the trade and the pick and the in the second. So that position will have to wait. Same goes for RB and FS. So we took the players we could and made the most of those picks. We used the day two pick on players that could produce on the field and not go with alot of projects. Good job all in all.
So we have to wait and see what may come available from now till kick off and then we may see a new face or two. If not next year will have to be the year to make the move. So be it. Year 3 of rebuilding is off to a good start.The window will be open for a few more years yet. No reason to panic now.

"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:46 PM   #42
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

The moves we made on defense certainly DO give us the chance to play with elite teams. Watch a replay of the Super Bowl to see what a consistent pass rush can do against an elite team. Outside of breaking the bank for Asante Samuel (who some call a Cover 2 scheme CB as well), you are not going to get an instant upgrade at the CB position. We signed a consistent player at the position (Gay), a craft veteran (Glenn), and drafted a rookie with a ton of upside (Porter). And you give David and Young another year in the system plus a better pass rush which can make mediocre corners (Giants) into quality defenders. Not to mention you draft Ellis and sign Vilma which upgrades your run stopping defense allowing your safeties to play less in the box and not as susceptible to biting on play action.

Enough said about the RBs. We are fine. Unless you took Stewart and maybe Mendenhall in the first round, there was not a surplus of bruising backs. I love Matt Forte and he will be a great player but you make a very simple mistake in equating 220 to a powerful runner. It takes a lot more than bulk to be able to run through the tackles (See TJ Duckett).

Again, what player in the draft would you have taken at TE that could come in and be a consistent blocker and receiver in the offense from day 1. NO ONE. The best TE in the draft was Keller and he has several years of development ahead of him to refine his blocking skills.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:08 PM   #43
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

Originally Posted by 504Highlander View Post
The 06 Saints and the 07 Saints were very similar personnel-wise. However, the 06 Saints had a much better season.

The difference was the running game. Our O stayed on the field with good third down stats and kept our D and opponent's O on the sideline.

I don't see any 08 solutions to the 07 problems.

RB / TE / DB
It really is hard to give any blame for last year on the offense. After our starting RB, then our #2 rb, then our #3 RB goes down we finish the year as the 4th best offense in the league. The reason Brees now has the record for most attempts and completions in a year is due to our defense as much as anything.

The comment about 3rd down stats caused me to check out some stats.
2006 ranked 3rd on 3rd down percentage

2007 tied with 2 others at 4th on 3rd down percentage

Well that might be a huge issue for the Saints and might cause some concern if not for the fact that we got better in 2007 compared to 2006.
2006 converted on 45% of 3rd down attempts

2007 converted on 46% of 3rd down attempts
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Old 05-18-2008, 11:46 PM   #44
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

I started this thread with a question about the team's lack of depth at RB, TE and DB.

Starting RB: Deuce ( 2 ACL, 1 Microfracture surgery )
Starting TE: Eric Johnson ( Knee )
Starting CB: McKenzie ( ACL )

IMO, the Saints are scary thin at these key positions and the failure to address the problem in Free Agency and the Draft, will be a major factor in 08.

The competition we will face this year is very strong.

I am a big Saints fan, believe it or not and I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that those of you who disagreed with me are right.

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:44 AM   #45
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
The Saints were 30th in the league in pass defense last year.
The Saints gave up 32 TDs in the air last year.
The Saints gave up 54 pass completions of 20 yards or more last year.
The Saints gave up 15 pass completions of 40 yards or more last year (tied for the league high).
On the other hand the offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year.
I think taking a cornerback was a prudent move.
SFIAH
Every Saints fan knows the Saints secondary sucked big time.

Question is, how best to correct the problem?

If you do this through the Draft, you are looking at a couple of years of development.

I believe that CB should have been addressed in Free Agency, not the Draft, so as to have an immediate impact.

You are too caught up in the offensive stats, which do not equal wins.

The 07 Offense could not run the ball consistently, so they had to pass. That is why the stats were off the hook. Good offenses are not forced to go one-dimensional. The O should dictate to the D, if they are well balanced.

The O needed help too. A big bruiser RB and a bigger, blocking and catching TE, to keep opposing defenses honest.

I like PT and Stecker to come in and spell the starter, but not as every down backs.

Another TE in Free Agency and a big RB in the 2nd round of the Draft, would have been my preference. ( JMO )

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Old 05-19-2008, 01:37 AM   #46
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
PT23 started against the Bears. He only rushed for a buck and caught a buck in passes in that start.
Reggie started against the Seahawks. Rushed for 97 with a 5.1 YPC average in that game.
Aaron Stecker started against Atlanta. Rushed for 100 yards on 20 carries.
Now while I will admit that for each this was their best performances last year, it shows that they have the capability to start for this team.

Payton doesn't run the ball with any consistency no matter who is back there. In 2006 Deuce only got 1057 yards on 243 carries. That's only 15 carries per game.

We have backs that will do the job the offense needs done.
Reggie is a perimeter runner. PT and Stecker are decent players. They are NOT starters. PT may turn into a Westbrook-type, which would help provide a change of pace.



Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
The Saints two top TE caught 74 passes for 709 yards and 4 TD last year. Each of those stats were better than the coveted Jeremy Shockey. It's only one less catch than Gates (though admittedly his yards and TDs were much better)
If they are the answer at TE, then why only sign them for one year, league minimum contracts?



Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
There was only one premier CB in free agency. I understand the Saints made a play. He chose to go somewhere else.
Hall, Trufant, Samuels, Sheppard, Asomugha. And there were many second tier corners that were available, if we had wanted to make a move.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
The Saints signed 2 free agents and drafted a CB in the 2nd round. They also drafted a CB in the 3rd round last year. They signed a smart ballhawking safety in KK last year.
What exactly do you want them to do at the position?
Stop signing unwanted vets and drafting rookies. Go get some talent to start now.


Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
At RB we're running 4 deep. The problem seems significant last year because the top 3 backs all got injured. PT23 showed his heart in that Chicago game, and now Coach Payton will trust the guy enough to give him some playing time. He'll spell Deuce, which will make him available deeper into the season.

Could we benefit from having an All Pro TE? Pf course. But the guys we have have certainly proved serviceable, especially Billy Miller. I'm going to trust the staff on this one, because both Johnson and Miller were free agents, and the Saints resigned both guys. If they didn't fit into the scheme, they could have simply walked away from both of them.

The secondary problems have a primary cause from the front 7. Safeties needing to be up for run support coupled with a lack of pass rush left them exposed. When you make an insurance salesman (Redmond) and two rookies (Gray and Mohr) look like Pro Bowl QBs then you have a problem up front in addition to the secondary. With a significant upgrade both at DT and MLB, the pressure will shift from our secondary to the opposing QB. The Saints secondary is going to look at lot better in 2008.

The only urgency at this point is health. Guys like McKenzie, Deuce, Grant, Vilma, and Morgan have to be healthy and ready to contribute.

In closing I can see talking about the secondary. Their performance last year was flat awful. But I really don't understand the continual pounding on the offense. This offense runs off Drew Brees. As long as dude is upright, then everything else falls into place. Last year there were changes in receivers, backs, TE, and O-line positions. Still finished 4th in yards and 12th in points. Consider the constant in all of that.

SFIAH
Your optimism is wonderful. But we need healthy, starting-caliber players at RB / TE / DB, ready to play in game one versus Tampa.

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:03 AM   #47
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan View Post
Enough said about the RBs. We are fine. Unless you took Stewart and maybe Mendenhall in the first round, there was not a surplus of bruising backs. I love Matt Forte and he will be a great player but you make a very simple mistake in equating 220 to a powerful runner. It takes a lot more than bulk to be able to run through the tackles. (See TJ Duckett).
We are nowhere near fine. The 07 running game sucked and we have done nothing to improve it.

I liked Stewart, Forte, Felix Jones and Kevin Smith, and there were others available about Deuce's size, who run with power.

I would have preferred taking one of these runners in round 2, in place of yet another rookie corner.

You commented that our secondary problems were more of a D-Line problem, and I agree with that. Since we upgraded the D-Line, why not give the current secondary another shot at stepping up their game?

Don't waste a precious Draft Pick on another rookie corner!!



Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan View Post
Again, what player in the draft would you have taken at TE that could come in and be a consistent blocker and receiver in the offense from day 1. NO ONE. The best TE in the draft was Keller and he has several years of development ahead of him to refine his blocking skills.
I don't agree with you on Keller. He was not much more than a bulked-up wide-out. I would have picked a really big, strong TE, with a history of being able to stay on the field, whether blocking or catching. Primarily blocking then go from there.
This is so important in short yardage and goal line situations.

Heath Miller, Jason Witten, and so on. That type of TE.

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Old 05-19-2008, 02:30 AM   #48
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

I thought football was a team game. I could be wrong. One reason both Bullocks and Harper weren't effective last year, not to mention David, is we had an average pass rush, lousy run D and average LBs. This clearly will change this year: McCray as a 3rd pass rusher on 3rd downs, Ellis to help Thomas clog the middle and pressure the passer and if only one of the two free agent LBs - Vilma or Morgan - plug an LB position, you will see less pressure on the DB's. McKenzie, by the way, is according to all reports, doing great and is expected to be back by Game 1.
Last year's drops by Eric Johnson, IMHO, were because he couldn't hold onto the ball as he was being hit. Call it gun shy, but it's what we pay huge TEs for. If he can either shake free or concentrate and if he juggles passes, at least juggle them into the ground instead of into INTs, we'll be o.k. with him and Miller.
The real worry I have is whether or not Deuce can be effective. It's a lot to ask of PT to be a reliable RB every game, instead of the fresh legs he had in the meaningless(to both teams) Bears game. Don't get me wrong; I've been a PT supporter as far back as early in '07, but Stecker has been more reliable in the long run.
We will all be surprised at what Porter will do for this team. He can cover, he can leap, he can and will tackle(despite the reports you read ad nauseum that he shies away from tackling. I followed his Indiana career stats: 2004-22,2005-48,2006-59,2007-83
And these don't include assisted tackles!
And he is a terrific punt returner, as well. Remember, if we don't have a bonafide game-breaking PR, Reggie has to fill in as well as his RB role and over a season, without a first-class RB like Deuce playing regularly, it will take its toll.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:34 AM   #49
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

Originally Posted by praglen View Post
McKenzie, by the way, is according to all reports, doing great and is expected to be back by Game 1
REALLY?.......where did u hear that....all ive heard from several sources is he'll be back mid-season....if that is true then that makes our defense even better....mike is a great DB in our system....he helps out our safeties a lot with his man coverage ability
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:36 AM   #50
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Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

Originally Posted by pakowitz View Post
in 06, we had deuce who came off of surgery just like this year and had one of the better years in his career, reggie.. who was a rookie in 06 and is now poised for a breakout year.. and stecker, who was a descent back up then and still is... and now we also have a good young player in PT..
stecker has always been a great backup...never a quality starter but arguable the best backup in the league...PT is just a younger version of the best backup in the league lol...thats a good tandum there in itself

i think you are undervaluing the presence of reggie.. he takes alot of heat off of the other guys just b/c of the gameplans that defenses put up just to stop him.. and if you think that they arent.. then you are sorely mistaken...
he needs a spy on him every single play....by spy i mean man coverage from a LB, S, CB etc.....he needs someone covering him specifically every play or he will single handidly beat u....yes he is that much of a threat


TE, which hasnt been a threat in N.O. for years wasnt really a factor in 06.. we still had the #1 offense in the league.. and in 07, we had the #5 offense.. even with an upgraded TE position from 06...
while i think upgrading the TE spot with a shockey talent....not necessarily him but a receiving TE would greatly help our team....its not really necessary as Pak has pointed out....we dont need a better TE because even back with Ernie Conwell we didnt have a great TE but he was good enough to play and catch when we needed him to

DB has been improved.. 06 we had fred thomas who was horrible and jay bellamy who was also horrible.... last year we had JD who was also horrible but had been playing in a zone heavy defense for the previous 4 years... i look JD to have a much better year, Harper has taken over for bellamy and has improved the play at the SS position...the addition of Gay will improve the depth at CB and McKenzie is coming off his best year as a DB and should be back to full form by the start of the season.. T. Porter an U. Young should both improve this year and will be fighting for a starting job either next year of the year after...
agreed....i think jason david had a lot of balls over his head because he had played in cover 2 for so long.....in cover 2 u have help from safeties and can cheat up on passes....he was used to having safety help which isnt always the case in our defense....now that he is more used to our defense and our requirements at the position i am sure he will step his game up....we didnt bring him in cuz he was bad....he just didnt understand what he needed to do


in addition to that... i think you are lookin at the wrong area of problems.. id say our biggest problem areas in 07 were DT, LB and CB and Oline..
not necessarily in that order but yes...exactly

we have improved the oline..
by bringing in who? lol...one of the only disagreements i have with this....we lost faine who was a good center and a good enough blocker in the middle to anchor the line....i liked faine but who did we bring in to replace him?..nobody lol...maybe lehr but it looks like hes goin to compete at LG....i dont think goodwin is a sizeable replacement and i hope alex mack stays healthy and falls to us in the draft next year....ne way...i think C is the only line position we need right now cuz of all the depth and youth at G and T

gotten a probowl MLB.. drafted a runstuffing penetrating DT who will take pressure off of w. smith and c. grant.. signed depth at LB and DE which will help our guys from getting worn out... we have signed several CBs which give us depth at the position...
our D is much improved...no arguing with that...all the defensive positions minus the S has been upgraded...and Payton likes our safeties as i've stated before..our D will be head above last years D

id say our biggest problem in 08, is adding a better backup qb and finding another reciever to compliment colston...
i think brunell is a sizeable backup...not too many teams have the depth at QB that we do....they dont have 2 starting caliber QBs.....brunell is no doubt past his prime but he isnt completely lost either....i think he has enough in his tank for a good backup season this year and next....as far as receivers go....meachem will play this year and show y we drafted him in the first round last year....im impressed when i watch his college games on film unlike arrington....i like meachem at WR this year opposite colston and patten in the slot....he played great at wideout last year and moving him to the slot will only make him that much better

"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd
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