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BillyCarpenter1 10-22-2003 07:33 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
http://www.houmatoday.com/apps/pbcs..../1033/SPORTS02



RYAN CHATELAIN
Leadership project in progress




The usually sure-handed Joe Horn had let yet another pass go in and out of his hands. And he knew darn well it was a ball he should have caught. After all, he gets paid nearly $3 million a year to catch those pointy brown things with laces.

As he turned back to look at his team and say in that NFL version of sign language, "My bad," his quarterback, Aaron Brooks, had a hand gesture of his own that told Horn, "It’s OK. We’re OK."

Next time you’re in the Superdome, bring your binoculars. Watch Brooks, the $36 million man, closely. He’s quietly making those strides toward becoming a leader -- doing those little things that his critics said he was too apathetic to ever do.

Watch him. He’s growing up before your very eyes -- that is if you keep them open long enough to notice.

The dropped pass by Horn during Sunday’s win over the Atlanta Falcons was just one play, one subtlety in Brooks’ long road toward becoming the general people expect him to be.

But just watch him. He’s changed from the Brooks of years past.

Before games, he’s leading a group of his receivers in warm-ups.

Watch him. He’s taking those receivers -- Horn, Stallworth and Conwell, who have had a bad case of the drops this season -- over to the sideline during the game to give their hands extra work.

Watch him. He’s not smiling after interceptions anymore. (In fact, you might be surprised to learn that only three quarterbacks who have thrown more than 100 passes this season -- Steve McNair, Vinny Testaverde and Rich Gannon -- have been intercepted less frequently than Brooks has.)

Even listen to him. The tone of disgust in Brooks’ voice after the Saints were embarrassed by the Colts 55-21 on Sept. 28, was sincere. Instead of offering excuses, he had a message for his teammates: "We’ve got to look deep inside ourselves, all 53 guys. … I believe we have quality players, and I believe we’re going to pull out of this."

Those may all seem relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but they are all actions Brooks has failed to do in the past. They are the actions of a leader -- or at least someone who’s trying to be one.

And, if you think Brooks’ efforts are inconsequential, consider that the epitome of leadership at the quarterback position is Joe Montana. His most famous tale of leadership came in Super Bowl XXIII.


Trailing Cincinnati 16-13 with 3 minutes remaining in the game, Montana calmly entered his huddle and asked his offense, "Is that John Candy" sitting in the stands?

That, too, might have seemed paltry, but it was just enough to calm the nerves of Montana’s teammates.

It was just what the 49ers needed to begin what ended up being the game-winning touchdown drive.

Maybe Brooks has not achieved Joe Montana status as a leader, and perhaps he never will. But he’s slowly but surely evolving into the leader some thought they never would see.

Courier sports writer Ryan Chatelain may be reached at 857-2210 or ryan.chatelain@houmatoday.com.



tweeky 10-22-2003 07:38 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
And the Brooks Bashers frantically search for a rebuttal...

seraph33 10-22-2003 11:07 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
Billy are you from Houma? You keep pulling up Courier articles.

saintz08 10-23-2003 12:32 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
Alright Tweeky I will try .

Saints currently are 3-4 , with a 1000 yard rusher . Who should easily reach that mark this year barring injury .

The defense is currently ranked 12th . Ahead of the offense which currently ranks 13th I might add .

Carolina is known for it defense ???, which currently ranks 23 .

Now comes the interesting part :

Those new and improved leadership wins , have come against .

Falcons - 32nd ranked defense .
Texans - 31st ranked defense .
Bears - 24th ranked defense .

Those may all seem relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but they are all actions Brooks has failed to do in the past. They are the actions of a leader -- or at least someone who’s trying to be one.

Leadership is not measured in the attempt , it is measured in the result .

It was just what the 49ers needed to begin what ended up being the game-winning touchdown drive.

Saints currently are 3-4

Note : The writer is smoking something , anyone that knows the Montana story knows he set the tone and tempo for his leadership role in the come from behind victory over the Saints .

Just in case :

The biggest deficit Montana ever overcame was 28 points. In 1980, his first season as a starter, Montana rallied San Francisco to a 38-35 overtime victory over New Orleans after trailing 35-7 in the third quarter.

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by saintz08]

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by saintz08]

BillyCarpenter1 10-23-2003 06:53 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
08 -- I\'m going to try out the new skills that I learned from WhoDat yesterday to discredit your post --

Quote:

Carolina is known for it defense ???, which currently ranks 23 .
In my opinion you are using a stat that says the panthers defense is ranked 23rd to say your boy Jake is winning without a good defense when in acuallity they are the 3rd best defense in points allowed.


Quote:

Those new and improved leadership wins , have come against .

Falcons - 32nd ranked defense .
Texans - 31st ranked defense .
Bears - 24th ranked defense .
I think that leadership isn\'t only exibited against the top defenses in the league. In my opinion you are doing nothing by trying to further your agenda against Brooks.


Quote:

Leadership is not measured in the attempt , it is measured in the result .
I could be wrong but, leadership is exibited in victory and defeat. So even the greatest leaders of all time have failed to acheive results but their leadership was exibited none the less.


Quote:

Note : The writer is smoking something , anyone that knows the Montana story knows he set the tone and tempo for his leadership role in the come from behind victory over the Saints .
In my opinion, if he was smoking something you sold it to him, because the writer was merely saying that leadership is demonstrated in different ways. He was saying that Montana cracked a joke in the huddle to ease the tension and compared that to Brooks telling Joe Horn that the dropped pass was ok -- that he would come back to him. Which he did the next 3 times -- All for completions.


WhoDat 10-23-2003 08:51 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
And the crowd goes wild!! Now THAT wa a good post. All good points too. 08, would you like to enter a rebuttal?

saintfan 10-23-2003 10:05 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
08 has an AGENDA people. Ignore anything he has to say regarding Aaron Brooks. He\'s a spin doctor and will NEVER judge Brooks fairly. You heard me...NEVER. Give up on him. He\'s old and his agenda is tired. He will go out of his way to prop up Jake Delhomme. He and Jake might even be related.


I\'ll say it again...IGNORE ANYTHING 08 POSTS REGARDING AARON BROOKS. It\'s biased and slanted.

saintz08 10-23-2003 10:12 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
Rebuttal :

Leaders generally lead by example , so I find it rather amusing that a person who does not have the ability to live up to his end of a bet should even post on leadership . Honor is a high quality in leadership value , so maybe the addition library time will do you some good .

In my opinion you are using a stat that says the panthers defense is ranked 23rd to say your boy Jake is winning without a good defense when in acuallity they are the 3rd best defense in points allowed.

Well we know what they say about opinions , now lets look at that defense .

Panther pass defense is ranked 29th
Falcons pass defense is ranked 28th

Brooks could only put up 13 points against a suspect secondary ?? Sounds like you are making excuses .

I think that leadership isn\'t only exibited against the top defenses in the league. In my opinion you are doing nothing by trying to further your agenda against Brooks.

Panther pass defense is ranked 29th
Falcons pass defense is ranked 28th

By the way , Jake does not play defense . So there is not way to Discredit Brooks leadership ability or playmaking ability against the 29th ranked pass defense in the league . 13 points against this secondary pretty much does it for itself .









BillyCarpenter1 10-23-2003 10:23 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
08 --

Quote:

Honor is a high quality in leadership value
You need to learn to honor the TRUTH. The truth is looking you dead in your eyes, but you aren\'t willing to acknowledge the TRUTH. Now, I can play the stat game with you, but you lose everytime. We can talk about physical abilities of Jake and Aaron -- Again you lose. We can talk about any comparision you want between the 2 QB\'s and once again you lose.

Now, I understand you love \"JAKE\", but at some point you are gonna have to acknowledge the TRUTH. But I know you probably never will. Just for fun 08 - Tell me what Brooks has to do to win you over?




[Edited on 23/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

saintfan 10-23-2003 10:24 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
Jake Delhomme\'s team is one of how many the Saints managed to hold under 20 points 08...in the last how many years? They scored a special teams TD too didn\'t they? How well did Jake do in that game...honestly?

By the way, as a spin Doctor you have NO BUSINESS questioning ANYbody\'s honor...none whatsoever.

Are you also unaware of the fact that the Carlolina pass rush is regarded by everyone as one of the best in the NFL? This helps mask their less that stellar secondary...as if you didn\'t know that already.


...but you DO know that already. Your agenda is showing 08, and it\'s not very attractive. Cover that shi& up already.


Old and Tired...Old and tired...

saintz08 10-23-2003 10:42 AM

Leadership project in progress
 
Jake Delhomme\'s team is one of how many the Saints managed to hold under 20 points 08...in the last how many years?

4 teams this year have held the offense to 20 points or less ?? Thats over 50 % and Jake only played on one of them .


WhoDat 10-23-2003 03:00 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
08 - I\'ve been on your side in this debate more often than not. However, I\'m a little confused by your post.

\"Panther pass defense is ranked 29th
Falcons pass defense is ranked 28th

Brooks could only put up 13 points against a suspect secondary ?? Sounds like you are making excuses.\"

Are you insinuating that Brooks is not a leader b/c he played poorly in the Panthers game? I\'m not judging, just trying to clarify. Also, are you seriously trying to convince us that Carolina\'s defense is as bad as Atlanta\'s? Really?

Again man, I\'m just confused by that last one, b/c normally you make really good points - but if you\'re trying to say that Brooks is not a leader b/c he didn\'t play well against Atlanta an/or attempt to convice us that Carolina\'s D is as bad as Atlanta\'s, well, I can\'t side with you on this one.

saintfan 10-23-2003 03:34 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
08 is easy to read once the Kool-Aid hangover wears off huh Whodat?

:P

saintz08 10-23-2003 05:12 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Who Dat :

The Panthers secondary has been a little suspect . The Panthers have applied good front pressure til now and not relied on the secondary too much .

Let Horn tell you for himself :

CHARLOTTE — Less than three weeks ago, the New Orleans Saints lost 19-13 to the Carolina Panthers. But that didn’t stop Saints wide receiver Joe Horn from taking a few verbal jabs at one of his all-time favorite targets — the Panthers’ secondary.

After the game Horn told reporters that Carolina’s secondary was “vulnerable� and would be exposed at some point during the season.

“Every year it’s something with him,� Panthers cornerback Terry Cousin said shaking his head in disbelief. “No matter what we do it will always be something. He feels one way about us and he’s never going to change. So we’ll take care of that on Sunday.�

The Panthers weren’t about to get caught up in a war of words with Horn.

“We aren’t going to worry about Joe Horn,� cornerback Reggie Howard said. “We’ll take care of him when we go down to New Orleans. That is all I have to say about it.�

Said strong safety Minter: “I’ll just say this: He’s got us (in the secondary) fired up.�

Cousin said he was “shocked� by Horn’s comments, and suggested that they probably came out of frustration after the loss.

But that doesn’t mean he’s going to let the three-time Pro Bowl receiver off the hook.

“You never forget things like that, so we’re going to see what happens on Sunday,� Cousin said. “He has to go out there and stand behind his word. I’m pretty sure us four in the back will hold him accountable.�


Now wether the Panther secondary steps up to counter Horns comments Sunday is another thought .

But Brooks should have been able to exploit this secondary , in fact if memory serves me well in another post , I picked Brooks to be able to win that game .

BillyCarpenter1 10-23-2003 05:47 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
As far as Brooks and leadership goes, I don\'t think Brooks has the best leadership skills in the world and he will probably never be one of the best. However, some players take longer than others to grow into that leadership role. I know, I know. Some of you contend that you don\'t learn to be a leader. You think that leaders are born. But, people can learn to be a leader. At least they can learn to be more of a leader.

Also, I think some associate a QB that get\'s up in someone\'s face and yells, and is fiery, with being a leader. Well, there are those types of leaders. There are also those type of QB\'s who\'s act grows old with their teammates. There have also been leaders that lead by example. These leaders were not real vocal guys but they got the job done none-the-less. Just like not all people are alike. Not all leaders are alike.

What I\'m more concerned with Brook\'s is his team mates and them having confidence in him that he can get the job done when the Saints are behind in a game. I beleive Brooks team mates do have confidence in him when things aren\'t going well. I also believe the more adversity a QB goes through the more respect he gains from his team mates.

Just this season alone Brooks has had to endure more critcism than any other player on the Saints team. Actually, I think this has been good for Brooks. After all, most QB\'s go through this at some point in their careers. I think the NFL has ways of humbling a QB and I think their teammates respect the fact that they have to endure the critcism and prove the critics wrong. Brooks seems to be doing exactly that.

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

WhoDat 10-24-2003 04:13 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
OK 08, so b/c Joe Horn talks smack about the Panthers\' secondary I\'m supposed to a) believe his trash talk, and b) somehow make the jump for the Panthers\' defense being totally overrated b/c the secondary is not great and therefore Brooks is not a leader?!?!

C\'mon.

saintz08 10-24-2003 05:58 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
No your not , WhoDat

The following is from PFW :

Carolina

A look at the numbers heading into Week Seven, shows that the Panthers rank in the bottom third of the league in overall yards allowed and in passing yards allowed. No problem, says defensive coordinator Mike Trgovac. “I care about three things,� Trgovac said. “Third-down percentage, red zone, and I care about points per game. Right now, we’re doing pretty good in all three areas, so I feel pretty good about that. When it’s time to finish a dang game, we need to finish the game. The stats are nice, but I worry about the points and wins and losses.� As for the bloated stats in yards allowed, Trgovac has a simple explanation. “If you take a look at our stats, it’s the two-minute stats,� Trgovac says. “We had Tampa held to 270 total yards, and (Bucs QB) Brad (Johnson) throws us a ball right in our hands, but we drop it. Then they go on and get 86 yards in that drive, then 40 more in overtime. So, it looks like we gave up all these yards, but they got them in the last two minutes. Same thing happened in the Indy game. The Colts had 369 total yards, but 91 of those came in the last two minutes. You take 91 yards away and you hold Peyton Manning to 280 yards and 13 points, you’ve had a good day. It’s just the two-minute area where we have to get better.�

I do not question Brooks leadership ability based upon what nobody else has done . But I question it for not being able to do what other have done ......

WhoDat 10-25-2003 01:10 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
You question BROOKS\' LEADERSHIP b/c the TEAM didn\'t put up a lot of yards in the Carolina game? Sorry, 08, but I need a more convincing argument than that. Saintfan is right, there\'s some Kool-Aid involved in this equation.

tweeky 10-25-2003 04:30 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
I think it may be a lot more than Kool-aid this dude is drinking.
I\'m may be a little slow, but your agenda is now coming into focus 20-20 dude!
Give it up !

BillyCarpenter1 10-25-2003 04:44 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Hey !! Y\'all take it easy on 08. If everyone tells him he has an agenda then he might realize it!! I don\'t want him to know he\'s wrong. I want him to keep posting all that STUFF. That way when Brooks makes it the the ProBowl this year, he will just have more CROW to eat. :o

saintz08 10-25-2003 10:56 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Who Dat

Sad part is I had the Saints picked for that game on this board .

The Panthers secondary was suspect , it has been noted and commented on . Duece gets the C note in the game . Brooks can settle the score in this game .

I would have put the farm on Brooks to blow the hinges off the door , and he flat lined it .

The Saints are favored this week against the Panthers , are odds makers saying it is because the Saints beat the worst team in the N.F.L. last week . Do not think so .

Leaders inspire good men to be better , the secondary is suspect and can be exploited . Will Brooks do it , we will see .......

WhoDat 10-25-2003 11:01 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Two things 08. One - I wouldn\'t use lack of EXECUTION as an example of poor LEADERSHIP. They are two very different things. Brett Favre doesn\'t always execute well, but he is a good leader nonetheless. You\'re confusing the issues. Second, you\'re trying to extend one incident as a blanket argument for three years. C\'mon man, I know you can do better. I\'ve been in the trenches with you before in this topic. Either you\'re too tired to go through all that again, or you\'ve simply forgotten what those arguments were... or maybe, just maybe, Brooks ain\'t as bad as either of us thought. Hmmm....

saintz08 10-26-2003 04:19 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Your right Who Dat we have been down this path before and nothing changes .

Leaders generally lead by example .

The leader on a unit , defense or offense is the one who makes that squad accountable to them , leads by example and inspires others to greatness . Consider the Panthers game in New Orleans , Horn is hurt and Gandy is there , not once but twice to help him off the field , wether he needed it or not . Turley , known for his halftime speeches and tirades , could inspire and lead .If Brooks leadership ability was not in question , would the Saints organization sent him to leadership classes ???

I mean really now Who dat , the Saints organization felt that Brooks leadership ability was enough in question to send him to leadership classes . I personally do not know of another quarterback in the league who has attended such a class .

saintz08 10-26-2003 05:08 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
That\'s kind of one of those interesting thoughts Gator .

Here is an interesting thought to go with it .

I think it was last week , The Cowboys offense lined up screwy on a certain formation , and Quincy Carter called timeout . Carter starts toward the bench and Parcels sends him back to the huddle without talking to him .

Parcels point was clear . Carter , you are the leader of the offense , fix it .............. Do not come running to me . Make the men accoutable to you and lead them .

I have seen quarterbacks send receivers out of the huddles and to the sidelines , they were made accountable for their play .

I think we have all seen Peyton chase down a receiver after dropping key balls delivered to them . He make his receivers accountable , and that make them better .......

DblBogey 10-26-2003 09:50 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Well Billy finally won me over! I vote for him as either AB\'s press agent or the newly created Saints coach of renewable confidence. Go get \'em Billy -- you are the MAN. Ignore all of those naysayers. I don\'t how so many of us could be so wrong. BTW the previous is probably something you will never read on this board until the Saints become the team that is good enough to win the game after a 20-20 tie against one of the better teams in the league. The winner is a good team -- better than average, the loser is just another team -- below average at best. Billy be content that as long as the Saints are playing like they are -- you will continue to take a pounding and continue to defend your views. Good Luck.

BillyCarpenter1 10-26-2003 10:05 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
DblBogey -- It has been asked of me not to be flaming other members. I intend to honor that request. Now your post has nothing to do with anything useful about the Saints. It serves only to get me to jaw back and forth with you.

We have all been asked to not to engage in this type of conversation. I\'m requesting that you leave my name out of these type of posts. If you want to discuss something relevant and useful about the Saints, then I have no problem with that.

BillyCarpenter1 10-26-2003 10:31 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Quote:

See thats why these rules stinks. Billy sounds like a Puh-see!
Well, let\'s just say it better that I don\'t get involved in these type of conversations. I plan on sticking to the rules. That\'s what I\'ve been told to do and I have to respect that.

saintz08 10-26-2003 10:52 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
It has been asked of me not to be flaming other members. I intend to honor that request.

Honor a bet --- no
Honor a request --- yes

very interesting ;)

BillyCarpenter1 10-26-2003 10:56 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Quote:

Honor a bet --- no
Honor a request --- yes

very interesting

This is more serious than the bet.

saintz08 10-26-2003 11:00 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
A mans word is his honor .

BillyCarpenter1 10-26-2003 11:03 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Quote:

A mans word is his honor .
Let me tell you something O8. I really don\'t give a damn about what you think. What I do give a damn about is you trying to get me to talk trash with you. I ask you before to take that stuff somewhere else. No, go play with BMG.

DblBogey 10-26-2003 11:03 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Billy, I apolgize if you took what I said as \"flaming\" you that is not the way I intended it. But there you go -- it is all in the interpretation, just like whether AB is a great QB or an average QB or below average. I did not cuss you, defame you, only to stress my difference in opinion with you and if we can\'t do that then what is the use in posting and relplying? If you could get past it being about you I did post something relevant to the Saints -- a good team wins in OT and a below average dosen\'t. I may be wrong, maybe JoeSam can set the record straight, but when you post a controversial post, then you open yourself up for others differences in opinion. I tell you what, depending on instant replay by JoeSam, if I am wrong then I will not post on this board anymore and if you are wrong then you quit the board.

JoeSam,
Could you give a rule interpretation on the question in point. Did I flame BillyC?
Sincerely,
The one and only DblBogey



Here is the deal Billy, if JoeSam intervines, if the answer is yes then I will leave and if the answer is no then you leave!

BillyCarpenter1 10-26-2003 11:08 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
DblBogey -- Look. Nothing personal. I just don\'t want to get that stuff started. You can get your point across by leaving my name out of it.

saintz08 10-26-2003 11:11 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Forget it DblBogey ,

Billy does not honor his agreements anyway , no point in making any agreement.

To me your post appears as no more then a little sarcasm .

BillyCarpenter1 10-26-2003 11:17 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
I\'m going to explain this for the last time. Especially for you 08. I don\'t want to get into any posts that can be considered as trash talking. I\'ve been told not to do it. I understand some people like to argue with me. But I\'m asking you guys not to be putting my name in that stuff.

08 -- Do you really think I care what you think about my honor. Take that stuff somewhere else.

saintz08 10-26-2003 11:32 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Not much too think about Billy .

You wrote it yourself .....

After much thought (not really) concerning my bet with FWtex -- I have decided that I dont\'t give a damn about the bet anymore because I just can\'t stand some of the ridiculos things being said on here and I must respond !!!

BillyCarpenter1 10-26-2003 11:41 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
08 -- Hopefully you will get lined out just like I did.



Quote:

NewsWire (Moderated by: whodatsaintsfan26, gusander, Halo, saintz08, saintfan)
saintz08 a moderator? Surely if anyone is suppose to be following the rules it shoud be you?


[Edited on 27/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

saintz08 10-26-2003 11:55 PM

Leadership project in progress
 
Dbl Bogey had a thought :

Here is the deal Billy, if JoeSam intervines, if the answer is yes then I will leave and if the answer is no then you leave!

So I should put a link to how you handled the last agreement Billy ???


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