An exercise in opinions
 

OK, Joe, I know this is a little off topic, but can you please bare with me a minute? I want to try to illustrate something here.

BILLY - this one is for you. I'm not calling you out at all man, I just think you continue to miss the point that I am trying to make, so I want to try to demonstrate it to you with something other than football. I'm asking you to please just play along. Hopefully, my point will be made clear.

One other note to the rest of you guys. Please do me this favor and don't jump in for a while. This entire thread is STRICTLY HYPOTHETICAL and being used simply to demonstrate a concept. Thanks gentlemen.


OK, so let's get to it. Billy, a simple question, are you pro-life or pro-choice?


[Edited on 22/10/2003 by WhoDat]

An exercise in opinions
 

WhoDat --

I\'ve followed what you\'ve been telling me all along. Your saying that eveyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right and wrong. But, I disagree. Opinions are just that OPINIONS. Some are right. Some are wrong. Some cannnot be proven either way.

That\'s the way it is. You try to make it sound like you don\'t argue peoples opinions and try to tell \'em they are wrong. I have questioned and WILL CONTINUE to question opinions. I will also tell someone when they have no idea what they are talking about. Am I wrong sometimes ? I\'m sure I am.

WhoDat -- I am perfectly capible of thinking for myself and I do just fine -- Thanks for trying to educate me. I know you think you can, but I am very happy thinking for myself :exclam:

An exercise in opinions
 

Billy, listen man. Do me this favor and play along, huh? C\'mon. What will it hurt.

Again man, I\'m not attacking you, but this comment, \"Some are right. Some are wrong.\" shows me that you don\'t get it. Events may play out such that someone\'s expectation for the future end up being off-base, but opinions cannot be wrong.

Just play along for a minute Billy. How can it hurt?

Pro-life or Pro-choice?

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Pro Life

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Gator - I asked people to stay out of this. Please do me that favor and shut it.

Please disregard that post Billy, and thanks for playing along.

OK, you\'re Prolife. Very well. I am sure that you have a lot of evidence that you can show to support that stance, right? I don\'t want to put words in your mouth, but you probably believe something along the lines of: a life is created when a child is conceived, to abort it is to kill it without ever giving that child a chance...

is that fairly accurate?

An exercise in opinions
 

Gator -- Let me straighten you out right now.

Your opinion don\'t mean NOTHING to me. I will criticize whoever I want and this includes you. I knew who the class JERK was after day 1. It was Gator and still is. See how that works Gator. You call me names. I call you names. You can\'t win and never will. We got each other now. If not, I\'ll explain it a little better...

An exercise in opinions
 

Pretty much the way I feel Dat.

An exercise in opinions
 

This is truely laughable.

Their used to be an opinion that the world was flat. Is it Gator? What\'s your opinion?

An exercise in opinions
 

Do you understand that people can make STATEMENTS and hide behind the word OPINIONS and be WRONG? Look, I wasn\'t born yesterday and y\'all can play on words and phraises all you want to. But, I\'ll keep right on thinking for myself.

An exercise in opinions
 

Gator --

In 1492 if I knew the world was round and everyone on earth told me it was flat, then I was right and they were WRONG. It\'s that simple.

An exercise in opinions
 

OK, well, for sake of argument, let\'s say I\'m Pro-life. Now, on a topic like this, which is particularly sensitive, wouldn\'t you think I could also support my position well? I could cite all types of medical opinions, liberal doctorine that promotes choice, etc. etc. etc.

OK, now I think that we would agree that there is one universal truth on this subject. I also think that we would agree that we don\'t know what that universal truth is. Am I right so far?

An exercise in opinions
 

NO. You are not right. There is not one universal truth. It goes very deep into one\'s personal beliefs. It also starts to get into religion and there is no one universal religion. This is something that is about every individual\'s belief. It his hardly comparable to being making a point that EVERY opinion is justified.

An exercise in opinions
 

In 1492...
da dum dum
Cloumbus Sailed the Ocean Blue...
de dum dum
He went so fast...
He slid on his azz...
and pee\'d all over the crew.

LOL

Sorry Whodat, but the medication wore off and I just couldn\'t resist. I\'m laughing so hard now I can\'t type...that\'s all I have to say....again...sorry...I just took another pill>

:P

An exercise in opinions
 

One other thing - you two need to take your BS argument out of my thread. Thanks.

An exercise in opinions
 

Whoa...

OK Billy, so what you\'re saying is that there is NO universal truth on when a life is created? Am I reading that right? That issue is simply a matter of perception? Is that how you really feel?

An exercise in opinions
 

I do not know exactly what point a human life beigins. NO.

[Edited on 22/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 22/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

An exercise in opinions
 

Gator -- That makes ALMOST as much sense as what some folks have been telling me about Brooks. Now if you\'ve got to change the Earth from FLAT to ROUND in one year\'s time, then I\'m going to call you a EARTH BASHER and question your loyalty to the earth.

An exercise in opinions
 

OK - but b/c YOU don\'t know the when a life begins does not mean that there isn\'t some universal truth about it... right? For example, is there life somewhere else in the universe? We don\'t know, but there is or there isn\'t. Just b/c we don\'t know that doesn\'t change the universal truth about life outside of earth, right?

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We can have our opinions but we can\'t prove what you are talking about. Is that what you\'re looking for?

An exercise in opinions
 

I\'m not looking for anything but honesty from you, but yes I would agree with that statement you just made.

So, thus far, in our HYPOTHETICAL discussion, we\'ve established:
a) You\'re Pro-life.
b) I\'m Pro-choice
c) That we cannot currently prove unequivically when a life is created.

Agreed?

An exercise in opinions
 

I\'m not gonna call you any names gator. Everything is not always changing my friend. Take electrisity for example. It always flows from negitive to positive. Always has and alway will. Valence electrons are excited by Voltage (pressure applied by difference of potential) and and flow from negitively charged atoms to positively charged atoms. People used to think electrisity flowed from positive to negitive. But it don\'t and never will. Their opinion was WRONG>

[Edited on 22/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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Agreed.

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Ok, good. So I also assume that you would agree that there is a possibility that at some point during the next billion years or so there is the distinct possibility that we may discover the undeniable truth about when life is created. Whether we discover it by a sign from God or a medical proof, is irrelevant. There is the possibility that we show one way or the other when a life is created and it will be undeniable. Just like gravity is undeniable, or to use your example, the flow of electricity. We agree that this can be proven some day, even if we don\'t know it now right?

An exercise in opinions
 

Gator -- I caught my mistake and went back and changed it. MY BAD>

Now, your arguement that everyone\'s opinion is just because everything is relitive to time does not hold water. Somethings are static and some are dynamic. Your theory is flawed based on the one statement I just made. It is not the exception to the rule.

Bottom Line -- There are opinions that are WRONG. They can and have been proven wrong. It really makes no difference at what point in time they are made. They were wrong when they made them and they will always be wrong. Now, they are opinions that can probably never be proven wrong or right. But that doesn\'t change the FACT that opinions are wrong.

An exercise in opinions
 

Agree again WhoDat.

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OK, good. So in 50 years, mankind could find this out and the result could serve to prove that one of us was right all along and the other was wrong all along. Correct?

I assume that you will agree with that, so I\'ll move on. In essence, what is happening now is that there is no known universal truth. So you and I are looking at the same set of facts, and coming to different conclusions. Both of our beliefs are based on strong reasoning and thorough analysis, right? So who is right and who is wrong?

An exercise in opinions
 

WhoDat -- I give you an \'A\' for effort.

Some opinions can never be proven right of wrong. No arguement from me here.

However, some can be proven wrong tomorrow !!

Some are just flat out wrong when they make \'em!!

Do you agree with that?

Example: The Saints are not owned by Tom Benson. He is just a front for his sister\'s ownership.

[Edited on 22/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

An exercise in opinions
 

OK Billy, I get your point as well. So let me counter with this - we\'ll use what the courts use.

For something like gravity, that would conform to the standards set in criminal cases - beyond the shadow of a doubt. So if you were a prosecutor and I was a defense attorney trying to prove that gravity did not exist, you\'d win.

Then there\'s the lesser standard set forth in civil cases (AKA law suits). This is simply the perponderence of evidence. So to take your example, if you tried to prove that Benson hypothetical statement, I could probably beat you by showing a good amount of evidence to the contrary, right?

So let\'s go ahead and bring it back to the Brooks discussion. You know, or at least I hope you do, that I am doing my damnedest to give Brooks a fair shake this season, right? I mean, I\'ve been pretty honest about his performances thus far, haven\'t I? I defended him early in the season, I\'ve admitted time and again that he is not the problem this year, and I\'ve now even said that if he keeps this up he will make a believer out of me... haven\'t I?

Now, I\'ll bet you everything you\'ve got that I can use statistics, game film, quotes from players, fans, coaches, analysts, and journalists to prove BOTH sides of this argument. You know what that tells me? There is no universal truth on this matter just yet. And as long as there isn\'t, any person that can make a concise and thought out argument on the issue is no more right or wrong than any other person. If I believe that Brooks is great and you think he stinks, I\'m not right and neither are you. The only person who can settle this is AB... and Father Time. In the meantime, unfortunately my friend, you\'re not right. You\'re not wrong either. You simply are. Get it?

An exercise in opinions
 

WhoDat -- I think you have been very fair about Brooks. Look, the only thing I\'m saying is that some people have written the end to the Brooks story before it\'s time. I don\'t think you have or gator has. Just because someone has an OPINION that Brooks needs to be cut, doesn\'t mean they are right. Now, I\'m not speaking for all of man kind when I say they are wrong. I am speaking for MYSELF. In MY eyes they are wrong.

I\'m not telling them to not express their opinions. I\'m just calling them on it........

An exercise in opinions
 

Fair enough.

Please allow me to make a suggestion then that might help diffuse this situation then. When you disagree, say \"I disagree.\" Or say, \"When I look at this thing, I come to this conclusion.\" Or, \"My opinion is...\" etc.

If I were you I would stay away from statements in which you make ascertions about a) facts, or b) claim that no one could see it differently unless they are being biased.

Statements like those are the ones that make you come across as crass B. After playing this out I realize that you may not really feel that way, it\'s simply your delivery. No doubt, we all get emotional about this team and these debates. I just think you\'ll get farther with people here by simply laying out your argument and showing your clear logic... and eventually simply agreeing to disagree, then you ever will by questions others\' logic, rationale, motives, and/or sexual orientation.

Of course, this is all just my OPINION, so take it for what it\'s worth. Be you man, I\'m just making a suggestion.

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That\'s exactly the way I intend to come across to some...

An exercise in opinions
 

So you\'re choosing to be crass on purpose?

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I\'ve said this many times. I will treat someone with the same respect that they give me. I will also tell you just I how feel about someone\'s OPINION. Feel free to tell me the same. If someone get\'s their feeling hurt because I tell \'em they are wrong and they take it as me being crass. Then, that\'s in the eye of the beholder. But, yeah, sometimes I\'m crass on purpose.

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Hey, Ok man. Do what you wanna do. As your attorney, I\'d advise you against it, but...

An exercise in opinions
 

WhoDat -- I got a question for ya. Isn\'t basically what you are saying is that no one has ever been right or wrong on this board, because no opinion is wrong? In that case I don\'t need an attorney because I have never been wrong -- ;)

An exercise in opinions
 

Incorrect and negligence are different things my boy. So is assault. ;)

All I can tell you B is be the bigger man. Don\'t stoop to others\' levels. I know it\'s hard on this board, but being an a$$ is never cool from where I\'m sitting, even if it\'s retalitory.