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GATORMAN RULES

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I find it very strange that two of my earlier posts in this thread before we got into it about turnovers, etc. were very welcomed by Billy and when I disagree with an issue I need to get \"my backwards ...

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Old 12-04-2003, 10:21 AM   #111
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GATORMAN RULES

I find it very strange that two of my earlier posts in this thread before we got into it about turnovers, etc. were very welcomed by Billy and when I disagree with an issue I need to get \"my backwards Canuck a$$ straight\". I\'ll pass along the same message to you as I did to Saintsfan....I\'ll be sure to PM you before I post to authorize the content of my messages.

I say all this tongue in cheek as well Billy. No offense taken by me as well.

I\'d really like you to explain how you are right?
And just for your amusement I\'ll post actual statements made in your\'s and WhoDat\'s posts so that I\'m only posting...
what I really said and what WhoDat said, instead of what you preceive was said?
Billy-started the ball about penalties
I\'ll bet ya that these teams with the most penalties have inconsistant offenses that are faced with long yardage situations because if penalties. Stats do lie a lot of times but the stats on penalties don\'t lie. Some teams might overcome them better than others, but not many....
WhoDat-started the ball about turnovers
AB has 15 turnovers. Please provide me with proof of 15 drive stalling f-ups by the other 10 players on offense. This should be VERY easy given our offense\'s play, and is step one of your little proof. Go ahead. You told me that I have blinders on, that I\'m short-sighted, and wrong. Obviously, you see the big picture where I do not, so go ahead a straighten me right out. Show me why I\'m wrong. Can you even do this? If not, then you have no business making such bold statements... unless... oh, I see. You\'re a comedian. I get it now.
Billy-quoted 2+ mistakes per individual
Hell, is that all I have to do to make you finally get you to admit you\'re wrong? How about the 2 -TD passes that Joe Horn has dropped. The 2 fumbles Deuce had against the Falcons. The 78 penalties that the offense has. All the dropped passes by Stallworth. The dropped passes by Conwell. The dropped passes by Paython. The missed blocks by the offensive linemen.
WhoDat-explains how turnovers unquestionably kill a drive
Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time.
Billy-tries to convince us the the drive is over already at 1st and 30
So you\'re trying to tell me if we are faced with 1st and 20 because of a holding penalty that this isn\'t a drive killer? I suppose if we make 20-yards you would be correct. Hell, how \'bout first and 30? You make me laugh !!
WhoDat-tries again to explain that a turnover stops a drive and miscues that don\'t result in a turnover can be overcome
OK Billy, go back and count how many times we\'ve had a penalty during a series and picked up a first down. Then go back and count how many times Brooks has turned the ball over and we\'ve picked up a first down. I\'m guessing your results will look something like this:

miscues that didn\'t stop a drive: 150
Brooks turnovers that didn\'t stop a drive: 0
Billy-hits head hard on wall
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You can post till ya blue in the face and drink all the WhoTang ya want to, but you are wrong about the above statement. Feel free to step up to the plate WhoDat.
WhoDat-calls you out for agreeing with my re-wording of his post
I say that Brooks needs to take care of the ball better, I say he isn\'t very good at reading defenses, I say his touch needs to improve, I say he needs better pocket awareness and to be more decisive, I say he can\'t manage the game, I say he isn\'t a good enough leader, and I\'m a short-sided lunatic who clearly doesn\'t understand football and has an agenda - despite proving Billy wrong on just about every prediction he\'s made for the Saints this season. Lumm0x says these things and Billy AGREES. The agenda is clear Billy, it\'s yours against me.
Saintsfan-gets involved in the thread (much later than I may I add) saying dropped passes, missed blocks and penalties are drive stoppers (not can be-but are)

WhoDat-tries to explain logic to Saintsfan
My point was simple:

A. Turnovers stop drives. You cannot argue that.
B. Dropped passed, penalties, and missed blocks do not ALWAYS translate into a drive killers. They certainly HURT the drive, and they CAN kill a drive, but there are many many many times during an NFL season where a penalty, dropped pass, or missed block occurs during a drive and the team overcomes it. Honestly, if those things killed a drive without question, the way turnovers do, the Saints would probably have only scored one half, or maybe a third as many points this season as they actually have.
Lumm0x-tries to explain that a turnover is an unquestionable droive stopper, where the others are only possible drive stoppers
Do penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes kill drives? If you are looking for a yes or no answer then it is NO. They can, have and will, but they blatantly don\'t. Do turnovers kill drives. It is, and only can be YES.
Billy-lacks ability to read
The fact is that penalties DO kill drives. Your attempt to say that the only things that kill drives are turnovers is RIDICULOS. If you want to get technical, I could say that turnovers don\'t kill drives. What if we fumbled the ball and the very next play the opponent fumbled the ball? We get the ball right back at the same spot and we\'re good to go.
WhoDat- tries AGAIN
OK Billy, reason and logic haven\'t worked so we\'ll try illustration, OK? See if you can get this:

1. If your offense turns the ball over on any play, can your offense score on the next play? NO. Thus, a turnover kills a drive unquestionably.

2. If your offense commits a penalty, misses a block, or drops a pass on any play other than 4th down can your offense score on the next play? The answer here is YES. So, while these things hurt drives, and CAN kill drives, they DO NO ALWAYS kill a drive. Get it?
Billy-disagrees....while agreeing
Look man -- Penalties don\'t kill drives in no uncertain terms like a turnover, but they put offenses in next to impossible odds of picking up a first down. Especially, when they keep putting themselves in those situations. Do they have a chance? You bet. Have penaties caused a team to not pick up a first down and thereby killed drives? You betcha!!
Gator-tries as well
Turnovers (FUMBLE, INT, BLOCKED PUNT, ON DOWNS)=Drive ends

Penalty= Depends
Penatites=Depends, but more likely

Bad playcalling=Depends
Bad execution= Depends

Turnovers kill drives period, all the rest depend but are substantial factors that at times kill drives.
WhoDat-points out you have agreed with what was said all along
Billy, this was my entire point in the first place. You\'ve just COMPLETELY acknowledged what I was arguing. First and 15 after a false start doesn\'t help a job by any means, but it\'s not THAT bad. First and 20, then a third and 3 that turns into 3rd and 13, well those hurt a lot more. Of course, both ARE surmountable, whereas a 2nd down INT is not.
Billy-backpedals behind doubletalk
Let me think about your statement(s) again??

Statement # 1 \" Penalties don\'t kill drives !! \"

Statement # 2 \" Penalties CAN kill drives !!\"

Sounds like doble talk to me. It\'s hard to hold an arguement like that.
Lumm0x-tries again
We\'re not arguing that penalties, missed blocks and dropped balls can\'t kill drives. We are arguing that they do not always kill drives. Turnovers DO. Any if your opponent fumbles the ball and you get it back it\'s called a change of possession and begins a new drive. Turnovers DO.
Billy-shows how I am posting on a thread I haven\'t read yet
LummOx --

You didn\'t step into a normal arguement here. Nope !! You stepped into an arguement between myself and WhoDat. It\'s refreshing to have a new face like yours in the arguement, but UNDERSTAND that this is some serious stuff. I appreicate you educating me on how \"turnovers\" work, but you really need to read the WHOLE thread BEFORE posting.
WhoDat- since Billy chose to take a quote as an absolute WhoDat made it one
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is that statement TRUE or FALSE? There is no in between. You have to look at that statement in the absolute. TRUE or FALSE?
Billy- Uses the same arguement to defend what he is attacking WhoDat over
You made the statement that drives are not drive stoppers and I told you they were. I never said or meant that they ALAWYS are. But, if that what it takes to make you feel like you are right.
Billy...I think you can agree I\'ve now read the thread.

You are attacking WhoDat for saying this:
Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
You are inferring that he is making an absolute statement. You then said that they are drive stoppers, but suddenly never said they always are, and that we are inferring it.

Point-You are attacking a statement as being....not incorrect...but incomplete...and defending your position with a statement that is not incorrect....but incomplete. WhoDat, myself, Gator, etc...were trying to show that penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes are a grey area.....but turnovers are black. You\'re making it a black and white affair.

Billy-
If your going to get in these things you should really try sticking to the facts and how \'bout posting what I really said and what WhoDat said, instead of what you preceive was said? Works much better that way. Do they not do that in Canada?
I now have to pass a bylaw here in Canada that perception is a singular. There is only one way to percieve. Now I\'ll get my nose outta your business buddy.
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Old 12-04-2003, 10:53 AM   #112
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GATORMAN RULES

Yeah, I was a little out of line with LummOx. But argueing with WhoDat shortens my temper a little bit. My apologies LummOx
Billy-Now I feel like dirt for that rant.
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Old 12-04-2003, 02:16 PM   #113
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GATORMAN RULES

From lumm0x, to BillyC:



:P

That was only a joke B&B.
I know, man, you don\'t have to explain yourself to me.

[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BlackandBlue]
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Old 12-04-2003, 03:56 PM   #114
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Billy, I wouldn\'t be so quick to blame the moderators for Saintfan leaving if he in fact did. If he left he left on his own accord. You are the one always spouting about look it up, maybe this time you should have looked it up before you place blame.
JoeSam,

I did not mean he left because of you. What I was asking was if him and another member got into and if the post got deleted because of foul launguage.

Everyone sure is sensetive here lately. Oh well........



[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]
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Old 12-04-2003, 06:26 PM   #115
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LummOx --

The whole debate between WhoDat and myself started because he was telling me that Brooks was most to blame for the offensive short comings. I said that the other 10 players on offense collectively were more to blame than one man, even if it was the QB.

I tried to explain that penalties were killing a lot of drives and WhoDat told me that penalties aren\'t drive stoppers. I called him on that ONE statement and somewhere down the line he changed that ONE statement ever so carefully.

Going back to my orginal point, I believe that YES Aaron Brooks has contributed more than ANY one single player on offense for the lack of success, but that\'s because he has an opportunity to screw up every play. I don\'t want to make excuses for Brooks. All I was trying to say is that over the course of the SEASON, Brooks is not the main reason that for the problems on offense. I contend that penalties, dropped passes, and just plain lack of execution are the REAL problem. Not Brooks.

Now if y\'all want to believe WhoDat and say Brooks is more to blame than the other 10-guys on offense combined. I think all of you really need to examine the way you think.

WhoDat\'s arguement that Brooks is most to blame becuase he has more turnovers is foolish. That\'s like me saying Deuce is second to blame becuase he has the second most turnovers. See how that works?


[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]
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Old 12-04-2003, 07:54 PM   #116
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http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/10/Bu...ightmare.shtml


We had some penalties, some crucial penalties in key situations,\" coach Jon Gruden said. \"We had some inexcusable penalties that killed us and stymied some pretty good-looking drives.
\"Those are big infractions,\" Gruden said. \"I do realize that Kenyatta is playing a new position against an outstanding player, but those penalties certainly were drive-killers. What can I say?\"

Those statements by Gruden prove that penalties are drive killers. Here\'s the part where WhoDat is specifically wrong. Here\'s the statement :

Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time.
At a specific time? It doesn\'t matter if the penalty is on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down. If the penalty is too great for the offense to overcome, then it is a drive killer. Now, I ask anyone to challenge that? LummOx?

Let me explain this another way. It\'s fist and 10. We need 10-yards for a 1st down. The key thing here is we only need TEN yards. We get a holding call on first down and now it\'s 1st and 20. We get 9 yards on 1st down. Now it\'s 2nd and 11. We get 6 yards on 2nd down. Now that would have been enough yards for a fist down if not for the penalty. Now on 3rd down we get 2-yards. Drive is now dead. Why? Well, we picked up 10-yards on that drive but becuase we got the penalty it wasn\'t a first down. It\'s pretty cut and dry to me!!!!!!!!!

Which brings me back to my point. If the Saints keep putting themselves at a disadvantage with penalites, drives will keep being killed. Sure they will overcome SOME penalties, but more times than not the drives will be killed.









[Edited on 5/12/2003 by BillyC]
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Old 12-05-2003, 09:59 AM   #117
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At a specific time? It doesn\'t matter if the penalty is on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down. If the penalty is too great for the offense to overcome, then it is a drive killer. Now, I ask anyone to challenge that? LummOx?
Billy, you are correct. But the one tiny word in that statement that means the entire arguement is
If the penalty is too great for the offense to overcome, then it is a drive killer.
A turnover does not offer an if. A penalty, missed block or, dropped pass, with the exception of 4th down still allows a \"possibility\" of continuing the drive, remote as it may be. On our own 10 yard line, if we throw a pick, the drive stops. If we drop a pass on 3rd and 10 and we have to punt, the drive stops.....but they get the ball around mid-field rather than our 10. The lesser of 2 evils. It stopped the drive, but any coach in the league would rather have a pass get called incomplete and allow a punt than ruled an interception.

No one was arguing the effect of the blocks, drops, and penalties. Brooks was used as an example in the thread, so now I\'ll choose Deuce.
If he fumbles twice in the game and Gandy takes two false starts, who caused a greater impact on the respective drives? That was the whole point.

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Old 12-05-2003, 10:16 AM   #118
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LummOx,

The only problem I had with WhoDat is he was trying to say that over the course of the season that Brooks is most to blame. I do not beleive that. It\'s true in certain games but not most of the games. I contend that the other 10-guys have contributed MORE to the lack of success than Brooks has.

As far as what are drive killers. I know that WhoDat, you, and myself all know what drive killers are. Although I don\'t think WhoDat is giving enough credit to how penalties have really hurt this team.

When I say the other 10-guys. I\'m talking about the offense as a whole and not any one individual. It takes a collective effort and Brooks has made more mistake, but that\'s true of 99% of every offense if not 100%.

[Edited on 5/12/2003 by BillyC]
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Old 12-05-2003, 01:37 PM   #119
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Wrong again. I never said \"over the course of the season\". I was talking about the EAGLES game. Now, if you want to get into a disucssion about the one person whose play has most negatively impacted the Saints on offense this season, it would be tough to call. Still, I would go with Brooks again. Only the center touches the ball as much as he does and I think Fontenot\'s play has been as consistent as ever. He\'s a rock in the middle. You know what you\'re going to get from him b/c he\'s done it the same way for over a decade.

Of course, even if his play was poor, Fontenot isn\'t a \"skill\" player. I won\'t even begin to imply that the line isn\'t extremely important, However, I believe that skill players impact a game more than linemen. Thus, the only guy who has had near the number of touches as Brooks is Deuce. How do you think those two compare?

Horn, Pathon, Stallworth... none of them is having a great year, no doubt, but with all their faults I personally cannot blame them as much as Brooks. Everytime I see him lpay I think of my old high school coach. He would say, \"Mistakes are OK, as long as they are aggressive and not mental. I\'ll never blame you for a physical letdown on a smart play. Make a dumb play, and we\'ve got problems.\"

Brooks makes dumb plays more than any other player on the TEAM. It\'s hard not to blame him.

The one thing I will say, is that I\'m glad everyone else here sees right through you Billy. I didn\'t even have to defend myself for the last two days. Lumm0x, BnB, Gator... they\'ve all jumped in to side with me in this debate. Thanks guys I appreciate it.

Now back to your normally scheduled programming:

Billy, you were about to tell us all about why Brooks isn\'t underperforming and hurting this team week in and week out and how we really have a chance at the Super Bowl if all of the no-talent bums around your boy AB would just step up and make a play every now and then... right?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 12-05-2003, 05:55 PM   #120
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Billy, you were about to tell us all about why Brooks isn\'t underperforming and hurting this team week in and week out and how we really have a chance at the Super Bowl if all of the no-talent bums around your boy AB would just step up and make a play every now and then... right?
WhoDat -- Since I have been a member of B&G you have done your level headed best to pin as much blame on Brooks as possible. Sure, you get around to talking about other things and try to place a little blame on other players. But for the most part you are, and will always be short sighted because of your dislike for Brooks and your undying love for Delhomme. You really need to get over it, but I understand.

An offense has 11-players and all you can do is point to ONE player (Brooks) and say he makes more mistakes than any ONE player on offense. I\'ll agree with you though WhoDat. But, that\'s true of just about every QB because they have more opportunities. Unlike you, I can see that offense is a total effort by all 11-players and I KNOW that just because the QB makes more mistakes than the other players, it does not mean he is the problem. Unless you are willing to concede that all QB\'s are the problem with the offense. Look at your boy Delhomme. He has more mistakes than Brooks and every player on his team. But of course you are such a HYPOCRITE you won\'t pin the samething on Delhomme. The fact is though that Delhomme pretty much SUCKS.

Would you agree that if you look at the other 10-players on offense as a group, that they have contributed more to the problems on offense than Brooks has? Or, do you want me and everyone elseto believe that because Brooks has more turnovers he is more to blame. You can\'t just compare Brooks to any ONE postion and say he is the BIGGEST problem. That\'s so short sighted.

Where do you stand WhoDat? Have the 10-other guys as a group held this offense back more than anything else? Or, does Brooks\' mistakes out weigh all 10-guys combined? If you say the other 10-guys have a greater impact than Brooks, then you need to quit being so damn short sighted and start placing some of the blame on them. Can you do that?

As a matter a fact I would like EVERYONE to weigh in on this question:

Is Brooks more to blame than all the other players on offense combined?

[Edited on 5/12/2003 by BillyC]
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