How many more games would we have won if....
 

.........Brooks was not the QB? Let me be the first to say that Brooks holds the ball longer than he should sometimes and makes mistakes during the course of a game. But, I'd like to know how many games y'all think we would have won with another QB??

How many more games would we have won if....
 

We\'d be somewhere between 7-4 and 4-7.
Who knows? Too many dynamics to speculate.

Brooks looks SLIGHTLY improved over last year. He better show me something over our last 5 or those doubts will start to creep back into my mind.

I\'m not ready to can him yet, but he\'s on a little thinner ice.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Who\'s the quaterback, with Brett Farve or Peyton Mannning we are at least 8-3. My basis for this is that I truly believe that Aaron has cost us two or three games this year. Every team that we have beaten could have beaten with a minimally talented, yet turnover conscious QB. Yes Aaron brough us back against the Falcons, but he was the reason we needed to come back in the first place. With a QB that doesnt make stupid mistakes, I also believe that we would have beaten Carolina twice and the Eagles this past Sunday. Brooks has been in the league for way to long, and we are way to late in the season to be fumbling the snap. As the QB he is also responsible for making sure everyone knows the snap count. He needs to take that responsibility and lead this team. With Bouman I say probably very similiar to the current record, but at least we could expect that Bouman would not continue to make the same mistakes week in and week out.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

What would you like AB to do. If it were AB\'s fault then all 10-guys would be jumping offsides. What are you talking about?

Green Bay 6 5 0 .545

8-3 with Favre huh? Hell, he can\'t even get his own team to 8-3 and you think he would get the Saints to 8-3? What are you talking about?

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Farve doesnt have the talent around him that Brooks has.

As far as the sanp count goes, Brooks is does not have the respect of his teammates. Apparently when they are in the huddle, not everyone is paying attention to what Brooks is saying, and that is a direct result of his lack of leadership skills.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Are you serious? I hope not, but beleive what ya will.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Perhaps you\'d like to provide a reason that grown men who have been playing the game their entire lives can\'t remember a number between 1 and 5.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Billy, you asked people there opinion about how many games the saints would have won without Brooks and when they respond it seems you are attacking them.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Let me ask you something progress. If you were an offensive lineman and ANY QB said the snap count was on 3 and you went on 2. Who would you blame? The QB? Yeah, it\'s the QB\'s fault. You sound like Leon on the commercial.

Leon can\'t do everything, it\'s the QB\'s fault !!

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Leon was meant to be Keyshawn in real life

How many more games would we have won if....
 

If Im the quaterback, and an offensive lineman does it once, I am going to make sure that that lineman knows the snap count for the rest of the game no matter what it takes to get through to him.
And in order to sound like Leon, I would have to start blaming Deuce. Had Deuce just broke two more 80 yard runs we would have won the game.
The QB is responsible for the offense period, he is responsible for making sure everyone is in position, that they know the play, and that they know the snap count.

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by progress]

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Progress -- If that\'s what you believe, then stick with it. What about when receiver drops a ball. Is that Brooks\' fault too? Does he need to make sure he tells him to concentrate better on the next play? I prefer to place blame where it goes, and hold each player responsible for their own mistakes.

Basically what you are saying is when everything goes right on offense then Brooks get\'s all the credit and when things go wrong Brooks\' get\'s all the blame. Where\'s the logic in that? Seriously !!

How many more games would we have won if....
 

You are taking things to far, its obsurd to believe that I am saying that its Brooks fault if Deuce or Horn fumble a football. What I am saying is the truth. The play and the formation come from the sideline to the QB. The QB is therefore responsible for making sure everyone on offense knows the play, formation, and snap count. It is then the QB\'s responsibility to handoff the football, or throw it where it needs to be thrown. Not behind, in front of, or over the head of players as Brooks does on a consistent basis. Brooks has our recievers scared to catch a football, because they know they are going to get laid out due to Brooks\'s consistent inaccuracy. I have seen very few passes that recievers have caught on the run, and catching the ball on the run is what makes the West Coast Offense (which is what McCarthy is supposed to be running) work.
Everything I just said is fact and not opinion. Donte refuses to play because he\'s not 100 %? Donte is scared to get hit and that is a direct result of Brooks\'s inaccuracy. (The last statement is opinion)

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by progress]

How many more games would we have won if....
 

I assume Billy is starting this thread just to pick a fight, but I\'ll wade in anyway. The answer is... ?????????

Too many variables to determine any answer. HOWEVER, I will say this. When the Saints were scoring 30 points a game the argument from Billy and Saintfan was - what more do you want the man to do? What, would another QB make them score 40?

That was their argument then when people like me said that Brooks made too many bad decisions and stupid mistakes. When we said that he was inefficient and couldn\'t read defenses, etc.

Now, I will fully admit that Brooks has silenced me as a critic in a number of those fields this season. His grasp of the offense seems better, as does his poise in the pocket. He is more efficient, and seems to be able to read the D better.

However, while he makes fewer dumb throws and boneheaded plays in games now, the ones he does make are far more glaring b/c this team is only scoring 17, 20, 24 points a game. Now, the manage the game QB argument starts to hold water. I\'m not against Brooks right now, nor am I suggesting a change. However, a QB that didn\'t lead the league in fumbles might help keep us in games by not stopping scoring drives with fumbles on the 1 yard line or not giving points away by throwing an interception on your own ten yard line.

Point is, Brooks isn\'t the only reason why Atlanta almost stole a game from us just over a week ago, nor is he the only reason we lost to Philly. However, the 31 points those two teams have combined for off of Saints turnovers (4 out of 5 were Brooks\' turnovers), and the at least 7 points that he took off the Saints board with those turnovers DO have a LOT to do with why we\'re losing games. Offensive linemen can kill our drives by jumping off sides twice in a row and turning our 3rd and 2 at an opponent\'s 40 into 3rd and 12 from the 50; recievers can stop drives by dropping sure first down balls; but only Brooks in the last few games has managed to give away 35 combined points. That is inexcusable.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Nope that\'s not it. Judging by the number of \"Brooks Sucks\" posts on this board I just figured a lot of folks think we would be undefeated if not for Brooks.

Like the fumble in our own endzone is an automatic 7-points for the other team and all the other turnovers for that matter. Yeah he turned the ball over, but he only has 8-interceptions this year. Anytime a defense can\'t stop a team from scoring when their offense turns the ball over, it magnifies everything. Why is it so hard to place blame on Brooks when it is called for and realize that other QB\'s do the same sh!t, only they get bailed out by a better defense?

Man, there are so many fans who want to pin EVERYTHING on Brooks. Maybe it\'s just a lack of football knowledge or maybe it\'s just their hate for the guy. And don\'t be telling me I won\'t fault Brooks, because I agree with the majority that Brooks is making some STUPID mistakes...

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Billy, the Falcons and Eagles both scored 14 points off of Brooks\' turnovers. You\'re right, our defense isn\'t good. But it\'s not the defense that is magnifying Brooks\' play, it\'s him. Like I said, last year, when they scored 30 a game, a slip up here that takes points off the board, or a slip up there that gives the opponent points might be overlooked and forgiven. It was last year. You weren\'t around yet, but more people sided with Brooks than not this time last season.

However, when your team struggles to score 20 and you give the ball away by yourself twice and those two turnovers amount to 14 points for your opponent and at least 7 less for you, yeah, you\'re a problem.

But go ahead and blame the line. How many turnovers do they have this season? In fact, do this: add up the fumbles LOST by Deuce, and all of the receivers combines this season and compare it to the 15 turnovers Brooks has on his own and tell me how Brooks compares to the entire rest of the team combined. I bet you\'ll see that AB has hurt this team by his own hand about as much as the entire rest of the team this season. That\'s OK though, I\'m sure you\'ll tell me about how those turnovers are really the line\'s fault, or the defense\'s, or special team\'s, coaches, WR\'s, ANYone but Brooks.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Aaron Brooks is the best QB to ever put on a New Orleans Saints jersey. *cracks open that newly delivered lifetime supply of tang and sips it*. He doesn\'t make mental mistakes *takes a longer drink*. He is going to take the Saints to the Super Bowl this year. *Does a tang-stand and passes out*

How many more games would we have won if....
 

WhoDat -- I\'ve already said SEVERAL times that I\'m not happy with Brooks play. Your attempt to say that I won\'t blame Brooks is foolish and a lie. Do you have a problem tellin\' the truth because I can pull up the posts if you like, but I know you have already read \'em, because I just posted them yesterday and today.

I think you are so busy trying to convince yourself that you have this whole thing figured out that you just start making things up. Can you please show me where I REFUSE to blame Brooks. If not, then quit putting words in my mouth...

What you fail to realize is that YES Brooks has made mistakes but there are 10-more guys that are surely hepling this offense to self distruct and I\'m going to place blame where it goes and I\'m not going to place one more ounce of blame on Brooks when it doesn\'t belong. That\'s something you can\'t do, as hard as you might try. I know you believe you are fair, but you are NOT!! Your agenda is still there.

The problem with you WhoDat is that there are so many posts on here where members are placing EVERYTHING on Brooks but you fail to call \'em on it 90% of the time, but when someone like me points to the BIG picture you feel compelled to say I\'m shifting the blame, when I aslo state in the same post that Brooks screwed up. Yeah, you don\'t have an agenda!!!

How many more games would we have won if....
 

You\'re right Billy. What was I thinking? The 90% (or more) of this board that is unhappy with Brooks\' play and doesn\'t believe that he is worth the money is all wrong. In fact, you and the one other guy on this board, who defend Brooks against all this unjust \"bashing\" are noble souls - defender of the Brooks name. Good job, and thank you for educating all of us that see things relatively the same way. Obviously it ALL of US that see things wrong - but you, being the visionary that you are, and incredible judge of NFL talent, have brought light to an otherwise dark place. Maybe we should make a shrine to you somewhere. We can list all of the predictions that you\'ve made that have turned out right... no, none of those... and we can list the incredible insights you\'ve made into the games... nope, your only comments after most games are about how great Brooks played, or why it wasn\'t his fault... you know, maybe the shrine wasn\'t such a good idea. I\'ll just keep drinking this Tang and maybe one day I\'ll get dumb enough to see things your way. Cheers!

How many more games would we have won if....
 

WhoDat bees tellin it like it bees.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

No I\'m not, and neither are you. We\'re both short-sided, don\'t understand football, and/or have an agenda. Listen to Billy, he\'s been wrong about everything so far, so obviously he\'s right about this.

NEW FROM THE WHO-TANG CLAN:
Now you can get 50 gallon drums of Tang delivered right to your home. In these times of poor play and turnovers, you\'ll need even more Tang to keep the cracked out smile on your face and to keep reality from intruding in your carefully constructed dream world in which the Saints aren\'t talented, except for Aaron Brooks. The Who-Tang Clan comes through again, delivering the kind of volume of Tang you need to stay in la-la land for the rest of the season.

[Edited on 26/11/2003 by WhoDat]

How many more games would we have won if....
 

At least I can admit I\'ve been wrong. Unlike some folks !! Give me your list of what you\'ve been wrong about WhoDat? Or have you ever been wrong?

How many more games would we have won if....
 

No Billy, I\'ve been wrong. I was wrong about the Tebucky trade, which I loved at the time. I was wrong about Stallworth\'s production this season. I was wrong when I said McCarthy couldn\'t make changes to the gameplan in-game, b/c he has recently. Hell, I was wrong when I said that my fantasy team wouldn\'t lose a game (although I am only one game out of first and closing on Joe quickly - look out Joe, I\'m coming after you! ;) ).

The difference here Billy, is that I\'m not wrong as often as you are. Why that is, I don\'t know. Maybe I\'m lucky or you\'re unlucky. If I had to guess I would say it\'s because I do my damnedest to observe the games unbiasedly and come to conclusions based on those events. I\'m guessing that you make up your mind before the game starts and you watch the game looking for things to support your pre-existing opinion. Maybe that\'s why you and Saintfan are the only two on this board that feel the way you do, whereas there are tons of people that are unsure of, and/or skeptical of Brooks\' ability to become the top 5 QB that we\'re paying him to be.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Let\'s looker a little deeper at the NFL WhoDat. Shall we? I have no shame on my NFL predictions. Cowboys have the best record in the NFC. Who woulda thunk it? Panthers first in the South. Who woulda thunk it? Bucs not going to the playoffs. You called that one didn\'t ya?

You once again try to make yourself look much smarter than you are because the Saints are having a sup-par year. How smart does it really make you feel WhoDat? I mean really !! If you\'re so damn good at predicting the Saints, then where are your other predictions on the other teams.

Can ya answer that for me WhoDat? Or should I send this question to one of your assisstants at your headquarters?

[Edited on 26/11/2003 by BillyC]

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Put the owned picture right here on this thread and then send one to WhoDat\'s national headquarters!! :D

[Edited on 26/11/2003 by BillyC]

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Yeah, OK Billy. I won\'t ask BnB for the OWNED picture in this thread too. I\'ll spare you of that.

You just abandoned any topic even remotely close to what we were discussing and said, \"Well you didn\'t predict every game right this season did you? So you must not know what you\'re talking about.\" Was there a nanny-nanny poo-poo in there too?

Let me ask you this Billy; do you play in our fantasy league? I\'d love to know how your team is doing. Comical I\'m sure. Oh, and my super bowl prediction was KC v Seattle. Yeah, I was WAY off. Who did you pick? Saints and Oakland I\'d bet. And go back to this preseason when I told you that Carolina was loading up on offense and that those players would be able to do enough to hepl that defense out and get their team to the playoffs. Go ahead and look. You absolutely berated me when I said that Carolina could easily finish ahead of the Saints. Yeah, I don\'t know much about football Billy. Tell me this Bill - which side is the weak side?

Good argument Billy, you got me there. Now I see why AB is a top 5 QB that the Saints should play without a backup.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

WhoDat -- Me avoiding the topic? That\'s your area. We need a board dedicated to your greatness You and all the experts were so right before the season ever started. Oh, I\'m sorry for grouping you in with the other experts. Ever thought about making a living predicting how the teams will finish? Obviously you have a keen eye for this.

Do you bet on the games each week. You seem pretty confident in your ability. Pretty soon you can quit your day job and concentrate on just the games.

How did you say the Bucs were gonna do again? Oh and what about the Bills? How bout dem Cowboys? The Bengals? Is Jake going to the Probowl?

How many predictions did you make? Or, are you just listing the one\'s that you still have a chance to be right about?

[Edited on 26/11/2003 by BillyC]

How many more games would we have won if....
 

I\'ve made $2,500+ betting on games this year Billy. And I didn\'t make any prediction as to how the Cowboys would finish other than to say that they would get better, which they have. The Bills and Bucs aren\'t doing as well as I thought they would. Yup, I was wrong about those two. Didn\'t make a comment one way or the other about the Bengals other than to say I like their coach, wish we had signed him, and hope for nothing but the best for him.

I said Jake would be the starter for Carolina come week one. Yeah, I was off by 1 half. I think you said that he wouldn\'t beat Rodney Pete out. Who was closer there? What was your prediction for those teams you listed above? Any? Didn\'t think so. No, you only make predictions about how great the Saints would be. How many of those have come true.

Keep going with this line of the debat though Bill. It\'s working well for you. I\'ve been right already and can continue to be. You\'ve been nothing but wrong with no prospects of being right. Good job man, you\'re sure showing me.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

I give you credit for predicting the Saints sub-par year. I\'ve already done that in another thread. Obviously you saw something I didn\'t on offense and special teams that was gonna cause them to struggle. I didn\'t see it coming. I\'ll learn ...

I\'m just no good at this predicting how the teams will finish in the NFL. Glad I didn\'t put in money on the Buc, Cowboys, Bills, Panthers, Falcons, Saints, before the season started.

Good job WhoDat -- You da man !!

How many more games would we have won if....
 

Can\'t tell if that\'s sarcasm or a white flag. Maybe the Tang is wearing off.

How many more games would we have won if....
 

AB is a fine athlete and a fine QB. He should be performing better though. All QBs have there ups and downs. However I would like to see more consistant play and more mental toughness out of him. We are lucky to have him around. McCarthy is the problem with the offence. AB just needs help with preperation.