this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; As I prefer the fact based approach to debate, the following lists the overt US military actions since 1950. It does not include either overt or covert CIA or other Government Agency actions. Please note that there is not one ...
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|01-24-2011, 02:27 PM||#31|
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As I prefer the fact based approach to debate, the following lists the overt US military actions since 1950. It does not include either overt or covert CIA or other Government Agency actions. Please note that there is not one single year in which American lives were out of harms way. The list does not include permanent deployment of military personnel outside of the US. As all but a couple of these notable actions were outside the geographic United States, by definition, the actions are exports of manpower, material, technology and capital:
195053 Korean War. The United States responded to North Korean invasion of South Korea by going to its assistance, pursuant to United Nations Security Council resolutions. US forces deployed in Korea exceeded 300,000 during the last year of the conflict. Over 36,600 US military were killed in action.[RL30172]
195055 Formosa (Taiwan). In June 1950 at the beginning of the Korean War, President Truman ordered the US Seventh Fleet to prevent Chinese Communist attacks upon Formosa and Chinese Nationalist operations against mainland China.[RL30172]
195455 China. Naval units evacuated US civilians and military personnel from the Tachen Islands.[RL30172]
195564 Vietnam. First military advisors sent to Vietnam on 12 Feb 1955. By 1964, US troop levels had grown to 21,000. On 7 August 1964, US Congress approved Gulf of Tonkin resolution affirming "All necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States. . .to prevent further aggression. . . (and) assist any member or protocol state of the Southeast Asian Collective Defense Treaty (SEATO) requesting assistance. . ."[Vietnam timeline]
1956 Egypt. A marine battalion evacuated US nationals and other persons from Alexandria during the Suez crisis.[RL30172]
1958 Lebanon. Lebanon crisis of 1958 Marines were landed in Lebanon at the invitation of President Camille Chamoun to help protect against threatened insurrection supported from the outside. The President's action was supported by a Congressional resolution passed in 1957 that authorized such actions in that area of the world.[RL30172]
195960 The Caribbean. Second Marine Ground Task Force was deployed to protect US nationals following the Cuban revolution.[RL30172]
195975 Vietnam War. US military advisers had been in South Vietnam for a decade, and their numbers had been increased as the military position of the Saigon government became weaker. After citing what he termed were attacks on US destroyers in the Tonkin Gulf, President Johnson asked in August 1964 for a resolution expressing US determination to support freedom and protect peace in Southeast Asia. Congress responded with the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, expressing support for "all necessary measures" the President might take to repel armed attacks against US forces and prevent further aggression. Following this resolution, and following a Communist attack on a US installation in central Vietnam, the United States escalated its participation in the war to a peak of 543,000 military personnel by April 1969.[RL30172]
1962 Thailand. The Third Marine Expeditionary Unit landed on May 17, 1962 to support that country during the threat of Communist pressure from outside; by July 30, the 5,000 marines had been withdrawn.[RL30172]
1962 Cuba. Cuban Missile Crisis On October 22, President Kennedy instituted a "quarantine" on the shipment of offensive missiles to Cuba from the Soviet Union. He also warned Soviet Union that the launching of any missile from Cuba against nations in the Western Hemisphere would bring about US nuclear retaliation on the Soviet Union. A negotiated settlement was achieved in a few days.[RL30172]
196275 Laos. From October 1962 until 1975, the United States played an important role in military support of anti-Communist forces in Laos.[RL30172]
1964 Congo (Zaire). The United States sent four transport planes to provide airlift for Congolese troops during a rebellion and to transport Belgian paratroopers to rescue foreigners.[RL30172]
1965 Dominican Republic. Invasion of Dominican Republic The United States intervened to protect lives and property during a Dominican revolt and sent 20,000 US troops as fears grew that the revolutionary forces were coming increasingly under Communist control.[RL30172]
1967 Israel. The USS Liberty incident, whereupon a United States Navy Technical Research Ship was attacked June 8, 1967 by Israeli armed forces, killing 34 and wounding more than 170 U.S. crew members.
1967 Congo (Zaire). The United States sent three military transport aircraft with crews to provide the Congo central government with logistical support during a revolt.[RL30172]
1968 Laos & Cambodia. U.S. starts secret bombing campaign against targets along the Ho Chi Minh trail in the sovereign nations of Cambodia and Laos. The bombings last at least two years. (See Operation Commando Hunt)
1970 Cambodian Campaign. US troops were ordered into Cambodia to clean out Communist sanctuaries from which Viet Cong and North Vietnamese attacked US and South Vietnamese forces in Vietnam. The object of this attack, which lasted from April 30 to June 30, was to ensure the continuing safe withdrawal of American forces from South Vietnam and to assist the program of Vietnamization.[RL30172]
1973 Operation Nickel Grass, a strategic airlift operation conducted by the United States to deliver weapons and supplies to Israel during the Yom Kippur War.
1974 Evacuation from Cyprus. United States naval forces evacuated US civilians during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus.[RL30172]
1975 Evacuation from Vietnam. On April 3, 1975, President Ford reported US naval vessels, helicopters, and Marines had been sent to assist in evacuation of refugees and US nationals from Vietnam.[RL30172]
1975 Evacuation from Cambodia. On April 12, 1975, President Ford reported that he had ordered US military forces to proceed with the planned evacuation of US citizens from Cambodia.[RL30172]
1975 South Vietnam. On April 30, 1975, President Ford reported that a force of 70 evacuation helicopters and 865 Marines had evacuated about 1,400 US citizens and 5,500 third country nationals and South Vietnamese from landing zones in and around the US Embassy, Saigon and Tan Son Nhut Airport.[RL30172]
1975 Cambodia. Mayagόez Incident. On May 15, 1975, President Ford reported he had ordered military forces to retake the SS Mayagόez, a merchant vessel which was seized from Cambodian naval patrol boats in international waters and forced to proceed to a nearby island.[RL30172]
1976 Lebanon. On July 22 and 23, 1976, helicopters from five US naval vessels evacuated approximately 250 Americans and Europeans from Lebanon during fighting between Lebanese factions after an overland convoy evacuation had been blocked by hostilities.[RL30172]
1976 Korea. Additional forces were sent to Korea after two American soldiers were killed by North Korean soldiers in the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea while cutting down a tree.[RL30172]
1978 Zaire (Congo). From May 19 through June 1978, the United States utilized military transport aircraft to provide logistical support to Belgian and French rescue operations in Zaire.[RL30172]
1980 Operation Eagle Claw, Iran. On April 26, 1980, President Carter reported the use of six U.S. transport planes and eight helicopters in an unsuccessful attempt to rescue the American hostages in Iran.
1981 El Salvador. After a guerrilla offensive against the government of El Salvador, additional US military advisers were sent to El Salvador, bringing the total to approximately 55, to assist in training government forces in counterinsurgency.[RL30172]
1981 Libya. First Gulf of Sidra Incident On August 19, 1981, US planes based on the carrier USS Nimitz shot down two Libyan jets over the Gulf of Sidra after one of the Libyan jets had fired a heat-seeking missile. The United States periodically held freedom of navigation exercises in the Gulf of Sidra, claimed by Libya as territorial waters but considered international waters by the United States.[RL30172]
1982 Sinai. On March 19, 1982, President Reagan reported the deployment of military personnel and equipment to participate in the Multinational Force and Observers in the Sinai. Participation had been authorized by the Multinational Force and Observers Resolution, Public Law 97-132.[RL30172]
1982 Lebanon. Multinational Force in Lebanon. On August 21, 1982, President Reagan reported the dispatch of 80 Marines to serve in the multinational force to assist in the withdrawal of members of the Palestine Liberation force from Beirut. The Marines left September 20, 1982.[RL30172]
198283 Lebanon. On September 29, 1982, President Reagan reported the deployment of 1200 marines to serve in a temporary multinational force to facilitate the restoration of Lebanese government sovereignty. On September 29, 1983, Congress passed the Multinational Force in Lebanon Resolution (P.L. 98-119) authorizing the continued participation for eighteen months.[RL30172]
1983 Egypt. After a Libyan plane bombed a city in Sudan on March 18, 1983, and Sudan and Egypt appealed for assistance, the United States dispatched an AWACS electronic surveillance plane to Egypt.[RL30172]
1983 Grenada. Citing the increased threat of Soviet and Cuban influence and noting the development of an international airport following a bloodless Grenada coup d'ιtat and alignment with the Soviets and Cuba, the U.S. launches Operation Urgent Fury to invade the sovereign island nation of Grenada.[RL30172]
198389 Honduras. In July 1983 the United States undertook a series of exercises in Honduras that some believed might lead to conflict with Nicaragua. On March 25, 1986, unarmed US military helicopters and crewmen ferried Honduran troops to the Nicaraguan border to repel Nicaraguan troops.[RL30172]
1983 Chad. On August 8, 1983, President Reagan reported the deployment of two AWACS electronic surveillance planes and eight F-15 fighter planes and ground logistical support forces to assist Chad against Libyan and rebel forces.[RL30172]
1984 Persian Gulf. On June 5, 1984, Saudi Arabian jet fighter planes, aided by intelligence from a US AWACS electronic surveillance aircraft and fueled by a U.S. KC-10 tanker, shot down two Iranian fighter planes over an area of the Persian Gulf proclaimed as a protected zone for shipping.[RL30172]
1985 Italy. On October 10, 1985, US Navy pilots intercepted an Egyptian airliner and forced it to land in Sicily. The airliner was carrying the hijackers of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro who had killed an American citizen during the hijacking.[RL30172]
1986 Libya. Action in the Gulf of Sidra (1986) On March 26, 1986, President Reagan reported on March 24 and 25, US forces, while engaged in freedom of navigation exercises around the Gulf of Sidra, had been attacked by Libyan missiles and the United States had responded with missiles.[RL30172]
1986 Libya. Operation El Dorado Canyon On April 16, 1986, President Reagan reported that U.S. air and naval forces had conducted bombing strikes on terrorist facilities and military installations in the Libyan capitol of Tripoli, claiming that Libyan leader Col. Muammar al-Gaddafi was responsible for a bomb attack at a German disco that killed two U.S. soldiers.[RL30172]
1986 Bolivia. U.S. Army personnel and aircraft assisted Bolivia in anti-drug operations.[RL30172]
1987 Persian Gulf. USS Stark was struck on May 17 by two Exocet antiship missiles fired from an Iraqi F-1 Mirage during the Iran-Iraq War killing 37 US Navy sailors.
1987 October 19, Operation Nimble Archer attack on two Iranian oil platforms in the Persian Gulf by United States Navy forces. The attack was a response to Iran's October 16, 1987 attack on the MV Sea Isle City, a reflagged Kuwaiti oil tanker at anchor off Kuwait, with a Silkworm missile.
198788 Persian Gulf. After the Iran-Iraq War resulted in several military incidents in the Persian Gulf, the United States increased US joint military forces operations in the Persian Gulf and adopted a policy of reflagging and escorting Kuwaiti oil tankers through the Persian Gulf, called Operation Earnest Will. President Reagan reported that US ships had been fired upon or struck mines or taken other military action on September 21 (Iran Ajr), October 8, and October 19, 1987 and April 18 (Operation Praying Mantis), July 3, and July 14, 1988. The United States gradually reduced its forces after a cease-fire between Iran and Iraq on August 20, 1988.[RL30172] It was the largest naval convoy operation since World War II.
198788 Operation Earnest Will was the U.S. military protection of Kuwaiti oil tankers from Iraqi and Iranian attacks in 1987 and 1988 during the Tanker War phase of the Iran-Iraq War. It was the largest naval convoy operation since World War II.
198788 Operation Prime Chance was a United States Special Operations Command operation intended to protect U.S. -flagged oil tankers from Iranian attack during the Iran-Iraq War. The operation took place roughly at the same time as Operation Earnest Will.
1988 Operation Praying Mantis was the April 18, 1988 action waged by U.S. naval forces in retaliation for the Iranian mining of the Persian Gulf and the subsequent damage to an American warship.
1988 Operation Golden Pheasant was an emergency deployment of U.S. troops to Honduras in 1988, as a result of threatening actions by the forces of the (then socialist) Nicaraguans.
1988 USS Vincennes shoot down of Iran Air Flight 655
1988 Panama. In mid-March and April 1988, during a period of instability in Panama and as the United States increased pressure on Panamanian head of state General Manuel Noriega to resign, the United States sent 1,000 troops to Panama, to "further safeguard the canal, US lives, property and interests in the area." The forces supplemented 10,000 US military personnel already in the Panama Canal Zone.[RL30172]
1989 Libya. Second Gulf of Sidra Incident On January 4, 1989, two US Navy F-14 aircraft based on the USS John F. Kennedy shot down two Libyan jet fighters over the Mediterranean Sea about 70 miles north of Libya. The US pilots said the Libyan planes had demonstrated hostile intentions.[RL30172]
1989 Panama. On May 11, 1989, in response to General Noriega's disregard of the results of the Panamanian election, President Bush ordered a brigade-sized force of approximately 1,900 troops to augment the estimated 11,000 U.S. forces already in the area.[RL30172]
1989 Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru. Andean Initiative in War on Drugs. On September 15, 1989, President Bush announced that military and law enforcement assistance would be sent to help the Andean nations of Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru combat illicit drug producers and traffickers. By mid-September there were 50100 US military advisers in Colombia in connection with transport and training in the use of military equipment, plus seven Special Forces teams of 212 persons to train troops in the three countries.[RL30172]
1989 Operation Classic Resolve, Philippines On December 2, 1989, President Bush reported that on December 1, Air Force fighters from Clark Air Base in Luzon had assisted the Aquino government to repel a coup attempt. In addition, 100 marines were sent from U.S. Naval Base Subic Bay to protect the United States Embassy in Manila.[RL30172]
198990 Operation Just Cause, Panama On December 21, 1989, President Bush reported that he had ordered US military forces to Panama to protect the lives of American citizens and bring General Noriega to justice. By February 13, 1990, all the invasion forces had been withdrawn.[RL30172] Around 200 Panamanian civilians were reported killed. The Panamanian head of state, General Manuel Noriega, was captured and brought to the U.S.
1990 Liberia. On August 6, 1990, President Bush reported that a reinforced rifle company had been sent to provide additional security to the US Embassy in Monrovia, and that helicopter teams had evacuated U.S. citizens from Liberia.[RL30172]
1990 Saudi Arabia. On August 9, 1990, President Bush reported that he had ordered the forward deployment of substantial elements of the US armed forces into the Persian Gulf region to help defend Saudi Arabia after the August 2 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq. On November 16, 1990, he reported the continued buildup of the forces to ensure an adequate offensive military option.[RL30172] American hostages being held in Iran.[RL30172]
1991 Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm (Persian Gulf War). On January 16, 1991, U.S. forces attacked Iraqi forces and military targets in Iraq and Kuwait in conjunction with a coalition of allies and under United Nations Security Council resolutions. Combat operations ended on February 28, 1991.[RL30172]
1991 Iraq. On May 17, 1991, President Bush stated that the Iraqi repression of the Kurdish people had necessitated a limited introduction of U.S. forces into northern Iraq for emergency relief purposes.[RL30172]
1991 Zaire. On September 2527, 1991, after widespread looting and rioting broke out in Kinshasa, Air Force C-141s transported 100 Belgian troops and equipment into Kinshasa. American planes also carried 300 French troops into the Central African Republic and hauled evacuated American citizens.[RL30172]
199196 Operation Provide Comfort. Delivery of humanitarian relief and military protection for Kurds fleeing their homes in northern Iraq, by a small Allied ground force based in Turkey.
1992 Operation Silver Anvil, Sierra Leone. Following the April 29 coup that overthrew President Joseph Saidu Momoh, a United States European Command (USEUCOM) Joint Special Operations Task Force evacuated 438 people (including 42 third-country nationals) on May 3 .Two Air Mobility Command (AMC) C-141s flew 136 people from Freetown, Sierra Leone, to the Rhein-Main Air Base in Germany and nine C-130 sorties carried another 302 people to Dakar, Senegal.[RL30172]
199296 Operation Provide Promise was a humanitarian relief operation in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Yugoslav Wars, from July 2, 1992, to January 9, 1996, which made it the longest running humanitarian airlift in history.
1992 Kuwait. On August 3, 1992, the United States began a series of military exercises in Kuwait, following Iraqi refusal to recognize a new border drawn up by the United Nations and refusal to cooperate with UN inspection teams.[RL30172]
19922003 Iraq. Iraqi No-Fly Zones The U.S. together with the United Kingdom declares and enforces "no fly zones" over the majority of sovereign Iraqi airspace, prohibiting Iraqi flights in zones in southern Iraq and northern Iraq, and conducting aerial reconnaissance and bombings. (See also Operation Southern Watch) [RL30172]
199295 Somalia. "Operation Restore Hope" Somali Civil War On December 10, 1992, President Bush reported that he had deployed US armed forces to Somalia in response to a humanitarian crisis and a UN Security Council Resolution. The operation came to an end on May 4, 1993. US forces continued to participate in the successor United Nations Operation in Somalia (UNOSOM II). (See also Battle of Mogadishu)[RL30172]
1993 Macedonia. On July 9, 1993, President Clinton reported the deployment of 350 US soldiers to the Republic of Macedonia to participate in the UN Protection Force to help maintain stability in the area of former Yugoslavia.[RL30172]
199495 Operation Uphold Democracy, Haiti. U.S. ships had begun embargo against Haiti. Up to 20,000 US military troops were later deployed to Haiti.[RL30172]
1994 Macedonia. On April 19, 1994, President Clinton reported that the US contingent in the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia had been increased by a reinforced company of 200 personnel.[RL30172]
1995 Operation Deliberate Force, Bosnia. NATO bombing of Bosnian Serbs.[RL30172]
1996 Operation Assured Response, Liberia. On April 11, 1996, President Clinton reported that on April 9, 1996 due to the "deterioration of the security situation and the resulting threat to American citizens" in Liberia he had ordered U.S. military forces to evacuate from that country "private U.S. citizens and certain third-country nationals who had taken refuge in the U.S. Embassy compound...."[RL30172]
1996 Operation Quick Response, Central African Republic. On May 23, 1996, President Clinton reported the deployment of US military personnel to Bangui, Central African Republic, to conduct the evacuation from that country of "private U.S. citizens and certain U.S. government employees," and to provide "enhanced security for the American Embassy in Bangui."[RL30172] United States Marine Corps elements of Joint Task Force Assured Response , responding in nearby Liberia, provided security to the embassy and evacuated 448 people, including between 190 and 208 Americans. The last Marines left Bangui on June 22.
1997 Operation Silver Wake, Albania On March 13, 1997, U.S. military forces were used to evacuate certain U.S. government employees and private U.S. citizens from Tirana, Albania.[RL30172]
1997 Congo and Gabon. On March 27, 1997, President Clinton reported on March 25, 1997, a standby evacuation force of U.S. military personnel had been deployed to Congo and Gabon to provide enhanced security and to be available for any necessary evacuation operation.[RL30172]
1997 Sierra Leone. On May 29 and May 30, 1997, U.S. military personnel were deployed to Freetown, Sierra Leone, to prepare for and undertake the evacuation of certain U.S. government employees and private U.S. citizens.[RL30172]
1997 Cambodia. On July 11, 1997, In an effort to ensure the security of American citizens in Cambodia during a period of domestic conflict there, a Task Force of about 550 U.S. military personnel were deployed at Utapao Air Base in Thailand for possible evacuations. [RL30172]
1998 Operation Desert Fox, Iraq U.S. and British forces conduct a major four-day bombing campaign from December 1619, 1998 on Iraqi targets.[RL30172]
1998 Operation Shepherd Venture, Guinea-Bissau. On June 10, 1998, in response to an army mutiny in Guinea-Bissau endangering the US Embassy, President Clinton deployed a standby evacuation force of US military personnel to Dakar, Senegal, to evacuate from the city of Bissau.[RL30172]
199899 Kenya and Tanzania. US military personnel were deployed to Nairobi, Kenya, to coordinate the medical and disaster assistance related to the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. [RL30172]
1998 Operation Infinite Reach, Afghanistan and Sudan. On August 20, air strikes were used against two suspected terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and a suspected chemical factory in Sudan.[RL30172]
1998 Liberia. On September 27, 1998 America deployed a stand-by response and evacuation force of 30 US military personnel to increase the security force at the U.S. Embassy in Monrovia.  [RL30172]
19992001 East Timor. Limited number of U.S. military forces deployed with the United Nations-mandated International Force for East Timor restore peace to East Timor.[RL30172]
1999 Operation Allied Force NATO's bombing of Serbia in the Kosovo Conflict.[RL30172]
* 2000 Sierra Leone. On May 12, 2000 a US Navy patrol craft deployed to Sierra Leone to support evacuation operations from that country if needed.[RL30172]
* 2000 Yemen. On October 12, 2000, after the USS Cole attack in the port of Aden, Yemen, military personnel were deployed to Aden.[RL30172]
* 2000 East Timor. On February 25, 2000, a small number of U.S. military personnel were deployed to support of the United Nations Transitional Administration in East Timor (UNTAET). [RL30172]
* 2001 On April 1, 2001, a mid-air collision between a United States Navy EP-3E ARIES II signals surveillance aircraft and a People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) J-8II interceptor fighter jet resulted in an international dispute between the United States and the People's Republic of China called the Hainan Island incident.
* 2001 Afghanistan. War in Afghanistan. The War on Terrorism begins with Operation Enduring Freedom. On October 7, 2001, US Armed Forces invade Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attacks and "begin combat action in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda terrorists and their Taliban supporters."[RL30172]
* 2002 Yemen. On November 3, 2002, an American MQ-1 Predator fired a Hellfire missile at a car in Yemen killing Qaed Senyan al-Harthi, an al-Qaeda leader thought to be responsible for the USS Cole bombing.[RL30172]
* 2002 Philippines. OEF-Philippines. January 2002 U.S. "combat-equipped and combat support forces" have been deployed to the Philippines to train with, assist and advise the Philippines' Armed Forces in enhancing their "counterterrorist capabilities."[RL30172]
* 2002 Cτte d'Ivoire. On September 25, 2002, in response to a rebellion in Cτte d'Ivoire, US military personnel went into Cτte d'Ivoire to assist in the evacuation of American citizens from Bouake.
* 2003 2003 invasion of Iraq leading to the War in Iraq. March 20, 2003. The United States leads a coalition that includes Britain, Australia and Spain to invade Iraq with the stated goal being "to disarm Iraq in pursuit of peace, stability, and security both in the Gulf region and in the United States."[RL30172]
* 2003 Liberia. Second Liberian Civil War On June 9, 2003, President Bush reported that on June 8 he had sent about 35 US Marines into Monrovia, Liberia, to help secure the US Embassy in Nouakchott, Mauritania, and to aid in any necessary evacuation from either Liberia or Mauritania.[RL30172]
* 2003 Georgia and Djibouti "US combat equipped and support forces" had been deployed to Georgia and Djibouti to help in enhancing their "counterterrorist capabilities."
* 2004 2004 Haοti rebellion occurs. The US sent first sent 55 combat equipped military personnel to augment the US Embassy security forces there and to protect American citizens and property in light. Later 200 additional US combat-equipped, military personnel were sent to prepare the way for a UN Multinational Interim Force, MINUSTAH.[RL30172]
* 2004 War on Terrorism: US anti-terror related activities were underway in Georgia, Djibouti, Kenya, Ethiopia, Yemen, and Eritrea.
* 2004present: Drone attacks in Pakistan
* 200506 Pakistan: President Bush deploys troops from US Army Air Cav Brigades to provide Humanitarian relief to far remote villages in the Kashmir mountain ranges of Pakistan stricken by a massive earthquake.
* 2006 Lebanon. US Marine Detachment, the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, begins evacuation of US citizens willing to leave the country in the face of a likely ground invasion by Israel and continued fighting between Hezbollah and the Israeli military.
* 2007 Somalia. Battle of Ras Kamboni. On January 8, 2007, while the conflict between the Islamic Courts Union and the Transitional Federal Government continues, an AC-130 gunship conducts an aerial strike on a suspected Al-Qaeda operative, along with other Islamist fighters, on Badmadow Island near Ras Kamboni in southern Somalia.
* 2008 South Ossetia, Georgia. Helped Georgia humanitarian aid, helped to transport Georgian forces from Iraq during the conflict. In the past, the US has provided training and weapons to Georgia.
I'll get to intolerance and gladiator sports shortly. As well as the destruction of the middle class, the coming dominance of BRIC and the "liberal" notion that justice not be reserved for those who can pay for it.
I just hope that Mr. Fujita recognizes that at an average price of ~$100 per person (seat, drink, dog, parking) the bottom 70% of New Orleans households could not realistically justify going to a game without incuring financial hardship. Something is wrong when so much is devoted to so few for so little.
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|01-24-2011, 03:39 PM||#32|
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One point that is overlooked in all this is endorsement deals. On top of their salaries almost all of them have an opportunity to earn another paycheck. Then add to that the pension that some of them get. I think OJ gets 20K a month last time I checked and add to that his movie royalties, he can receive 15-60K a month.
There is no way I feel sorry for either the players or the owners. Let them work it out on their own terms but leave the common fan out of it.
|01-24-2011, 06:12 PM||#33|
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Originally Posted by xanI forget the exact timeline but there has only been a brief stint in the World History where there has NOT been a conflict somewhere regardless if the U.S was involved or not. Needless to say that has nothing to do with the price of a NFL Ticket.
It's all supply and demand and what the market is willing to pay. You have a waiting list that is years long.Apparently more people seem to be able to afford it than not. Not everyone can afford a Cadillac or Lexus so they go to a Basketball or Baseball game where Ticket Prices are cheaper.Also there is no mandate that requires you to buy a hot dog, park at the dome or buy a drink, unlike the current presidents new Health Care Mandate. Wonder how the bottom 70% are going to afford that or go to jail?
Anyway I'd be stupid to pass up my boss offering a million for me to work and i'd be stupid to complain that it isn't enough cause I have to feed my family. But everyone should be paid on the value of their talent. I'm not going to be paid as much as a sugeon but more than a wal-mart greeter.
NFL is a product like any other and it is a popular product. It is there to make people money and to provide entertainment. If it wasn't as popular you'd end up with the NHL.
Justice doesn't mean everyone gets paid the same, live in the same type of home and drive the same type of car and go to a saints game. Justice means that everyone has the same opportunity to acheive what they want to do. Some have to work harder at it but the opportunity i still there. If they don't make it, you sure as hell don't fault someonethat did make it and burn them. You ever hear of saving money to take that trip to Disney? Or to buy your woman that Diamond Ring? Or to attend a saints game? I'm not jealous of those that are better off than I am. It makes acheiving my goals that much sweeter.
|01-24-2011, 06:19 PM||#34|
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also XAN freedom is not free. How many of those conflicts were WE attacked? You've included Drug wars and American evacuation missions too.
I fail to see your point. If you are going to just throw Americans in Harms way stats you need to look no further than our southern border and the Border Patrol.
|01-25-2011, 12:31 AM||#35|
Professor Crab and
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So the argument is flipped now? Protecting liberty is a liberal concept. And, what freedoms are we protecting? We spend 7 times the level of our next biggest "threat." We spend more than the next 26 highest spending countries combined. We haven't been "invaded" since 1816 and our neighbors are barely capable of marching in a straight line much less mount an offensive. We are situated 2500 miles from the next remotely viable "threats," who happen to be our biggest allies.
The "argument" is that the only reason to carry such high levels of military spending is to engage in war to feed a war machine. Without conflict, there is no justification for spend. So we've invented (rather "liberally") justifications in scores of circumstances a reason to export a savage and pointless policy.
No, Mary, they don't hate us for our freedoms, they hate us because we bully and disrespect them, then kill their children in defense of some irrelevant principle known to the merchants of weapons as profits, then transfer wealth away from hard working Americans under the guise of patriotism. We trot out the toothless and undereducated to bolster the fiction that this is the American way of life.
The sad fact is that this system is unsustainable. Which was the point. No culture in human history has been successful long term with this strategy. It is inevitable, and, some may say, already come to pass. In 4 years China will surpass the US in GDP. In 10 years, India will pass us. Our only leverage (pun intended) will be the debt we owe them for sustaining this mess of policy. We could have had universal health care gold plated for 15 years for the cost of the Iraq "war." The costs of treating the wounded from that conflict will dwarf many states' entire healthcare budget, public and private. Instead of investing in our people and our country, we've squandered our earnings and pilfered our children's piggy banks. It's like watching a pathetic gambling addicted drunk pitching pennies in an alley.
So instead, we have fake gladiators moaning that they risk their "lives" for measily fortune that 99% of Americans dream of earning, while real gladiators volunteer that last measure of true devotion for barely poverty wages.
And very little of either's efforts bring real change and progress.
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Hobbes: "Common lament."
|01-25-2011, 08:26 AM||#36|
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Originally Posted by xan Obama's stimulus, passed in his first month in office, will cost more than the entire Iraq War -- more than $100 billion (15%) more.
Just the first two years of Obama's stimulus cost more than the entire cost of the Iraq War under President Bush, or six years of that war.
Iraq War spending accounted for just 3.2% of all federal spending while it lasted.
Iraq War spending was not even one quarter of what we spent on Medicare in the same time frame.
Iraq War spending was not even 15% of the total deficit spending in that time frame. The cumulative deficit, 2003-2010, would have been four-point-something trillion dollars with or without the Iraq War.
The Iraq War accounts for less than 8% of the federal debt held by the public at the end of 2010 ($9.031 trillion).
During Bush's Iraq years, 2003-2008, the federal government spent more on education that it did on the Iraq War. (State and local governments spent about ten times more.)
American Thinker: Iraq: The War That Broke Us -- Not
|01-25-2011, 09:39 AM||#38|
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Originally Posted by DannoCareful Danno. Those FACTS don't fit into his agenda. He'd rather live in China where his Internet access and Facts he has access to are monitored and censored.
|01-25-2011, 09:49 AM||#39|
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Blog Entries: 33
Ok, let's say that you're right, that the only cost of war is the actual war itself, it doesn't include the cost of medical care for veterans after the war, it doesn't include the lost productivity of any of the people who were displaced from their families and jobs, it doesn't include the interest for the debt we carry for deficit funding that war, it doesn't include the "crowding out" effect of diverting savings away from productive use for use in prosecuting an unjust and unwinnable "war." I'll even go as far to concede that losing 5000 lives and disabling 40,000 Americans won't cause much long term damage to American prosperity, even though our society is aging and we don't have enough young people working to cover the cost of our elderly or the education of our young; those future earnings will simply be shifted to immigrants or outsourced to India or China anyway. I'll even concede the stimulus - investment in new growth and opportunity was bad idea, not achieving the growth goals. It takes 3-5 years for investment like that to show results, and bailouts of bad process usually don't give the optimistic results, but it is rarely a true waste of money.
I'd like to see you justify all that war money on no productivity, no gain in freedom or no new jobs here in America. The reason that Stiglitz calculates that the cost of the war was $3Trillion is because we don't pick the most convenient subtotal for our specious argument. We include all costs related to the activity. The CBO rightly identified the auditable costs associated with the activity in Iraq. It did not include the peripheral or subsequent costs because they are line-itemed separately or not part of the budgeting process.
This is why we're in trouble. We only use data that makes our argument, not form an argument based on all the data.
Worse yet, deliberately avoiding reality of imminent foreclosure on the American dream with the delusion that investment in an utterly unproductive activity ensures our "future prosperity" is exactly the point you are so brilliantly (however unwittingly) making for me.
I do not need to argue further, having conceded your points, yet still the reality exists. Bad policy yields bad results.
Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger."
Hobbes: "Common lament."
|01-25-2011, 04:20 PM||#40|
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA
Blog Entries: 5