Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes,

saintfan · 12-02-2003, 12:15 PM

There are no absolutes?

Looks like the wizzard gave him a brain afterall!

What, by the way, is my \"automatic\" response, where is it \"documented\", and what, precisely, isn\'t based on fact? I readily admit I don\'t claim to have all the answers which quite frankly is what separates me from the likes of you!

Lets debate factual things, blake, rather than stuff you just , cause there are enough people on here doing that already.

If you never said \"nor implied, that AB is the root of all the Saints\' problems\" then what, may I ask, have you said to the contrary? Just a curious question...

I do beleive Brooks has flaws. I think Bradshaw had some too. Aikman and Montana and Marino etc all had flaws. I have pointed out poor blocking at times (fact) and dropped passes at key moments (fact) as pressing issues. I have also indicated that Brooks\' errors are on \"on him\"...\"all on him\"...and you can look that up, or I can do it for you. Either way you\'re dead wrong in your assessment of me and again I\'d ask that we discuss FACTS rather than your own personal fiction if we\'re to carry this any further. Next time perhaps you should test the water before you dive right in. How\'d that be?

[Edited on 2/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]

saintz08 · 12-02-2003, 01:08 PM

Let\'s just say I would do alot better then the zombie that spent the Big bucks on Jerimiah Trotter with the Deadskins now and then schemed him wrong ....

The press box is usually a mess , I prefer the suites .

Blake 6900

Gotta disagree with you here :

You and I can disagree to our heart\'s content about Aaron Brooks but one thing\'s for sure: At a million five a year, we ain\'t gettin\' our money\'s worth, OK?!

At a million five for Brooks , sold . He could back up Eli .......

JKool · 12-02-2003, 02:07 PM

I\'m not sure how this got so heated, but I do think a few things are clearer.

1. Most people are not disagreeing that there are several problems for our beloved team this year. Mostly as follows, and in no particular order: 1. Defense can\'t stop the run, 2. Brooks is not a leader, 3. Receivers drop balls, 4. too many turnovers, 5. Coaching, 6. a less that stellar off-season.

2. People are disagreeing about which of these is most important with respect to our team\'s predicament, NOT that these are not all contributing factors.

My argument was this: people who keep saying that Brooks is not a leader are barking up the wrong tree (I still believe that point) AND we need a clearer concept of leadership to move the debate forward. I argued that leadership has two parts: 1. Vocal and 2. Example. I thought it was clear that Brooks wasn\'t a Vocal leader, but no one had made an argument to the claim that he didn\'t lead by example. I became convinced that there wasn\'t much evidence that he lead by example in terms of making dynamic plays that could fire up the team (that is the point I conceded). However, I\'m open to counter-arguments here. Furthermore, it is unclear to me that Brooks leadership matters AT ALL, as long as he wins games with his physical talents.

I would be interested in hearing some argument about coaching, which I think requires some distinctions too: 1. game preparation, 2. team moral, 3. personel decisions (in game), and 4. vision. So, before someone goes on a rant about how bad the coaching is, perhaps he/she should stop and think about WHAT elements of the coaching suck, since it is NOT all bad.

I remain of the opinion that it is our run defense that is of primary concern (especially our lack of a big play, or even simply consistent play, linebacker). Next after that I think is receiving - we have been fairly awful in the handful of games I\'ve been able to see. However, that is just my opinion.

WhoDat · 12-02-2003, 02:08 PM

What\'s amazing to me is that after the Philly game, for example, I said that the defense played terribly, and this team on a whole made WAY too many mental mistakes. I also blasted Brooks - and while his play overall might have come out pretty good on the day, it was destroyed by a few collosal blunders that I think cost us the game. So, of course, Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dumber come running in here talking about an agenda against Brooks, short-sightedness, and whatnot.

While no one on the field played considerably well other than Deuce (as usual), the team DID play well enough to win the game. In fact, had it not been for two Brooks fumbles that led to 14 Eagles points and took 7 off of the Saints\' board (a 21 total point swing), the Saints would probably have walked out of Philly with a win.

I don\'t think that is an unfair analysis of the game. However, if your name is Saintfan or BillyC, then I\'m a freakin\' loon. So I take it further and try to show how Brooks\' turnovers hurt more than the many penalties and dropped passes by asking, how many points did the Eagles score off of Saints penalties? Any? While they certainly hurt the team, they couldn\'t have hurt us all that much. Most of our penalties were on offense that game but we still managed to rack up nearly 500 yards in offense. So what was it? Again I point to turnovers and now apparently I don\'t understand football b/c I believe that penalties and dropped passes are easier to overcome than turnovers, and that only turnovers unquestionably end a drive.

So fine. Label me a Brooks Hater. Say that I have a turnover agenda. That\'s fine with me. If saying what I said above translates to Brooks Basher and Turnover Agenda, then you\'re damn right I am those things. I\'d rather be labeled incorrectly then just be incorrect period.

BillyC · 12-04-2003, 05:36 AM

WhoDat,

I have a question for you. Why do you avoid questions about some of the statements you make? Let me give you an example !! You stated that \"Deuce is the only player living up to expectations.\"

Is Charles Grant not living up to expectations? How \'bout Jay Bellamy? How \'bout Wille Whitehead? Can you admit that at least one player other than Deuce is living up to expectations and that you are wrong, or are you going to double talk or ignore the question all together?

There is no doubt that Deuce is the MVP but to say no other player is living up to expectations is way out there WhoDat and then you went on to say you were disappointed in every player but Deuce.

I\'m sure you\'ll have the usual suspects run to your defense, and I\'m starting to wonder exactly what kind of relationship you have with some of those folks. Just remeber when you get drunk on the WhoTang

I really should have deleted the whole thing but.......

[Edited on 4/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]

WhoDat · 12-04-2003, 07:35 AM

OK, you can probably say Grant is as well, but Bellamy is not to me. He makes a great hit and then gets gashed on the next play. He\'s Brooksesque on his play. But I\'ll give you Grant.

But if you disagree, by all means, please Billy, list the other players on this team playing up to expectations.

BlackandBlue · 12-04-2003, 08:22 AM

list the other players on this team playing up to expectations.

While I won\'t say that they\'ve been doing it all year long, because they haven\'t, it\'s good to see our offensive line gel and play, what I would consider, up to expectations over the past couple of games. You know that it was going to take a few games for them to start working as a unit, and I think that if we pick up a good tackle in the draft (3rd or 4th rounder), then this area will not need to be addressed for a few years, which will be nice. I\'d put Whitehead on that list, just because he plays like it\'s his last game, every game. Other than that....eh

[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BlackandBlue]

tweeky · 12-04-2003, 08:46 AM

list the other players on this team playing up to expectations.

Playing about as expected or better:
OFFENSE-------------------
Gandy
Jacox
Fontenot
Riley
Boo (better than expected)
Conwell (especially late)
Rasby
Brooks
T. Smith
McAllister (MVP type year)
Horn
Holland
DEFENSE------------
Grant
Howard
Sullivan
K. Smith
Whitehead (better)
Ruff
D. Smith
Bellamy (better)
Thomas
Rogers (better)
M. Williams

NOT playing as expected:
Sedrick Hodge
James Allen
Dale Carter
Tebucky Jones (but we had very high expectations)
Ashley Ambrose
Donte Stallworth
Michael Lewis
Jerome Pathon (almost met)
Bentley (but we had very high expectations)

lumm0x · 12-04-2003, 09:36 AM

We all expected Jay Bellamy to be riding pine.....so I\'m surprised he isn\'t as horrible as he was last year. Perhaps it\'s just that the SS position doesn\'t expose his lack of speed and puts him in more tackling opportunities....but I\'m happy with him.

12-02-2003, 12:15 PM	#21
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, There are no absolutes? Looks like the wizzard gave him a brain afterall! What, by the way, is my \"automatic\" response, where is it \"documented\", and what, precisely, isn\'t based on fact? I readily admit I don\'t claim to have all the answers which quite frankly is what separates me from the likes of you! Lets debate factual things, blake, rather than stuff you just , cause there are enough people on here doing that already. If you never said \"nor implied, that AB is the root of all the Saints\' problems\" then what, may I ask, have you said to the contrary? Just a curious question... I do beleive Brooks has flaws. I think Bradshaw had some too. Aikman and Montana and Marino etc all had flaws. I have pointed out poor blocking at times (fact) and dropped passes at key moments (fact) as pressing issues. I have also indicated that Brooks\' errors are on \"on him\"...\"all on him\"...and you can look that up, or I can do it for you. Either way you\'re dead wrong in your assessment of me and again I\'d ask that we discuss FACTS rather than your own personal fiction if we\'re to carry this any further. Next time perhaps you should test the water before you dive right in. How\'d that be? [Edited on 2/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]
	C'mon Man...

12-02-2003, 01:08 PM	#22
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, Let\'s just say I would do alot better then the zombie that spent the Big bucks on Jerimiah Trotter with the Deadskins now and then schemed him wrong .... The press box is usually a mess , I prefer the suites . Blake 6900 Gotta disagree with you here : You and I can disagree to our heart\'s content about Aaron Brooks but one thing\'s for sure: At a million five a year, we ain\'t gettin\' our money\'s worth, OK?! At a million five for Brooks , sold . He could back up Eli .......
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

12-02-2003, 02:07 PM	#23
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, I\'m not sure how this got so heated, but I do think a few things are clearer. 1. Most people are not disagreeing that there are several problems for our beloved team this year. Mostly as follows, and in no particular order: 1. Defense can\'t stop the run, 2. Brooks is not a leader, 3. Receivers drop balls, 4. too many turnovers, 5. Coaching, 6. a less that stellar off-season. 2. People are disagreeing about which of these is most important with respect to our team\'s predicament, NOT that these are not all contributing factors. My argument was this: people who keep saying that Brooks is not a leader are barking up the wrong tree (I still believe that point) AND we need a clearer concept of leadership to move the debate forward. I argued that leadership has two parts: 1. Vocal and 2. Example. I thought it was clear that Brooks wasn\'t a Vocal leader, but no one had made an argument to the claim that he didn\'t lead by example. I became convinced that there wasn\'t much evidence that he lead by example in terms of making dynamic plays that could fire up the team (that is the point I conceded). However, I\'m open to counter-arguments here. Furthermore, it is unclear to me that Brooks leadership matters AT ALL, as long as he wins games with his physical talents. I would be interested in hearing some argument about coaching, which I think requires some distinctions too: 1. game preparation, 2. team moral, 3. personel decisions (in game), and 4. vision. So, before someone goes on a rant about how bad the coaching is, perhaps he/she should stop and think about WHAT elements of the coaching suck, since it is NOT all bad. I remain of the opinion that it is our run defense that is of primary concern (especially our lack of a big play, or even simply consistent play, linebacker). Next after that I think is receiving - we have been fairly awful in the handful of games I\'ve been able to see. However, that is just my opinion.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

12-02-2003, 02:08 PM	#24
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, What\'s amazing to me is that after the Philly game, for example, I said that the defense played terribly, and this team on a whole made WAY too many mental mistakes. I also blasted Brooks - and while his play overall might have come out pretty good on the day, it was destroyed by a few collosal blunders that I think cost us the game. So, of course, Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dumber come running in here talking about an agenda against Brooks, short-sightedness, and whatnot. While no one on the field played considerably well other than Deuce (as usual), the team DID play well enough to win the game. In fact, had it not been for two Brooks fumbles that led to 14 Eagles points and took 7 off of the Saints\' board (a 21 total point swing), the Saints would probably have walked out of Philly with a win. I don\'t think that is an unfair analysis of the game. However, if your name is Saintfan or BillyC, then I\'m a freakin\' loon. So I take it further and try to show how Brooks\' turnovers hurt more than the many penalties and dropped passes by asking, how many points did the Eagles score off of Saints penalties? Any? While they certainly hurt the team, they couldn\'t have hurt us all that much. Most of our penalties were on offense that game but we still managed to rack up nearly 500 yards in offense. So what was it? Again I point to turnovers and now apparently I don\'t understand football b/c I believe that penalties and dropped passes are easier to overcome than turnovers, and that only turnovers unquestionably end a drive. So fine. Label me a Brooks Hater. Say that I have a turnover agenda. That\'s fine with me. If saying what I said above translates to Brooks Basher and Turnover Agenda, then you\'re damn right I am those things. I\'d rather be labeled incorrectly then just be incorrect period.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

12-04-2003, 05:36 AM	#25
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, WhoDat, I have a question for you. Why do you avoid questions about some of the statements you make? Let me give you an example !! You stated that \"Deuce is the only player living up to expectations.\" Is Charles Grant not living up to expectations? How \'bout Jay Bellamy? How \'bout Wille Whitehead? Can you admit that at least one player other than Deuce is living up to expectations and that you are wrong, or are you going to double talk or ignore the question all together? There is no doubt that Deuce is the MVP but to say no other player is living up to expectations is way out there WhoDat and then you went on to say you were disappointed in every player but Deuce. I\'m sure you\'ll have the usual suspects run to your defense, and I\'m starting to wonder exactly what kind of relationship you have with some of those folks. Just remeber when you get drunk on the WhoTang I really should have deleted the whole thing but....... [Edited on 4/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

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12-04-2003, 07:35 AM	#26
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, OK, you can probably say Grant is as well, but Bellamy is not to me. He makes a great hit and then gets gashed on the next play. He\'s Brooksesque on his play. But I\'ll give you Grant. But if you disagree, by all means, please Billy, list the other players on this team playing up to expectations.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

12-04-2003, 08:22 AM	#27
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, list the other players on this team playing up to expectations. While I won\'t say that they\'ve been doing it all year long, because they haven\'t, it\'s good to see our offensive line gel and play, what I would consider, up to expectations over the past couple of games. You know that it was going to take a few games for them to start working as a unit, and I think that if we pick up a good tackle in the draft (3rd or 4th rounder), then this area will not need to be addressed for a few years, which will be nice. I\'d put Whitehead on that list, just because he plays like it\'s his last game, every game. Other than that....eh [Edited on 4/12/2003 by BlackandBlue]
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

12-04-2003, 08:46 AM	#28
tweeky 500th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: South Alabama Posts: 779	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, list the other players on this team playing up to expectations. Playing about as expected or better: OFFENSE------------------- Gandy Jacox Fontenot Riley Boo (better than expected) Conwell (especially late) Rasby Brooks T. Smith McAllister (MVP type year) Horn Holland DEFENSE------------ Grant Howard Sullivan K. Smith Whitehead (better) Ruff D. Smith Bellamy (better) Thomas Rogers (better) M. Williams NOT playing as expected: Sedrick Hodge James Allen Dale Carter Tebucky Jones (but we had very high expectations) Ashley Ambrose Donte Stallworth Michael Lewis Jerome Pathon (almost met) Bentley (but we had very high expectations)

12-04-2003, 09:36 AM	#29
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Horn drops 1, Brooks throws the usual number of bad passes, We all expected Jay Bellamy to be riding pine.....so I\'m surprised he isn\'t as horrible as he was last year. Perhaps it\'s just that the SS position doesn\'t expose his lack of speed and puts him in more tackling opportunities....but I\'m happy with him.