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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; WhoDat -- You have told me that Brooks is to blame for the offensive troubles this year. You stated the resaon for that was because he has turned the ball over more than anyone else on the team. Is that ...

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Old 12-05-2003, 08:16 PM   #1
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WhoDat --

You have told me that Brooks is to blame for the offensive troubles this year. You stated the resaon for that was because he has turned the ball over more than anyone else on the team. Is that correct so far? You also contend that Brooks' turnovers have killed more drives than penalties, dropped passes, and everything else, because you contend these don't neccessarily kill drives. Is that also correct? I think your position is Brooks is MOST to blame. Is that correct?

Let's look at your arguement with another QB, like...uh.....Jake Delhomme. Is that fair? Of course it is. Delhomme has 11 interceptions and 10 fumbles for a total of 21. Obviouly Delhomme has more turnovers than ANYONE else on his team. He also has more turnovers than Aaron Brooks. Would you say that Delhomme is MOST responsible for the Panthers losses?

Let's take it a step further. I've looked at 10 QB's in the league and they all have more turnovers than ANYONE else on their team. Would you like to say that they are MOST to blame for their teams losses? As a matter of fact just about EVERY QB has more turnovers than any player on their team. Are all of these QB's most to blame for their teams losses?

Are you saying that Brooks is unique here? Or would you agree this is common in the NFL and Brooks is no different than Jake Delhomme or ANY other QB? I'm real curious here WhoDat. It sure seems like you're trying to say Brooks is doing something that other good QB's don't and he's just killing the Saints.

I don't think it's fair to compare ANY QB's turnovers to any other player on offense. After all, no other player has the opportunity to turn the ball over like a QB.

I do think it's fair to combine the other 10-players mistakes and compare them to the mistakes by a QB. I say that all of the mistakes added up by the other 10-guys on offense is contributing more to the lack of success on offense than Brooks.

There were a few members like LummOx, Gator, that commented on this discussion in another thread and I would now like to hear from all of you again on what I just posted? Especially LummOx and Gator. I think both of you will be fair.





[Edited on 6/12/2003 by BillyC]
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Old 12-05-2003, 09:24 PM   #2
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Yeah, and let\'s hear from BMG, besides Joe he\'s probably the most fair guy on this board.

And he posts good pics!

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Old 12-05-2003, 09:31 PM   #3
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BrooksMustGo --

Actually I think you\'ve been doing very good BMG. Don\'t disappoint me ok buddy?
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Old 12-05-2003, 11:46 PM   #4
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You have told me that Brooks is to blame for the offensive troubles this year. You stated the resaon for that was because he has turned the ball over more than anyone else on the team. Is that correct so far?
No, wrong. I\'ve said over and over that there have been many problems with the offense. Try reading what I write and not what you think I write. I did say that Brooks is MORE to blame than any ONE player - don\'t agree Billy - who on the offense is playing worse? Who is hurting this team more? One guy. You keep putting words in my mouth saying that I claim to have said that Brooks is hurting the team more than everyone else combined. I\'ve said that about ONE game all season long Billy. I\'ve defended Brooks from criticism and said that he was the least to blame on more ocassions than that. Shall I find quotes to prove that Billy?

You also contend that Brooks\' turnovers have killed more drives than penalties, dropped passes, and everything else, because you contend these don\'t neccessarily kill drives. Is that also correct?
Again you are wrong. I\'ve never said this. I argued that:
A. Turnovers hurt more than penalties, dropped passes, and missed blocks (which pretty much everyone on this board agrees with), and
B. the turnovers that Brooks has had in the Eagles and Atlanta game cost us dearly - in Philly it cost us the game. Apparently those goggles affect your ability to read these posts as well.

Would you say that Delhomme is MOST responsible for the Panthers losses?
Yes I would. He is the weak link in that offense by far. I have said for sometime now that I do not prefer Delhomme to Brooks at this point. I think Delhomme, in his FIRST season as a starter, is experiencing some growing pains. Of course, in the last month of the season Jake has thrown for 985 yards and has 6 TDs and 6 Turnovers. Brooks has thrown for 636 yards and has 4 TDs and 4 Turnovers. Would you like to debate which QB has the better RB and WRs and whose offense is more geared towards throwing? Again, other QBs, not just Jake, do more with less than Brooks all the time. He is an underachiever.

Are you saying that Brooks is unique here?
No. But, let\'s look at your logic when applied rationally. How can you judge how much a QB hurts or helps? TDs to Turnovers sound OK to you? Probably not, but just to display my point, let\'s look at some of the better QBs in the league right now

Hasselbeck 24:10
Manning 23:10
Green 20:10
Plummer 14:7 (and yes, he is very good when he isn\'t hurt)
McNair 23:12
Pennington 12:7
Culpepper 21:14

Brooks 17:15

In fact, he\'s behind the likes of Jon Kitna, Brad Johnson, and Jay Fiedler.

I do think it\'s fair to combine the other 10-players mistakes and compare them to the mistakes by a QB.
Man, you just keep coming up with new ways to embarrass yourself. Do you think any player who had more mistakes by himself than the rest of his TEAM (side of the ball) would still be in the NFL? Great argument Billy! Fantastic. I\'d LOVE to hear your logic on this. Everyone, get ready for another Greatest Hits thread.

Especially LummOx and Gator. I think both of you will be fair.
Whereas I will not be Billy? Again, showing your agenda against me. Lumm0x showed it clear as day in that thread after I made comment on it. You\'ve shown again that you have a clear bias towards everything I say, probably b/c I\'ve showed you the error of your skewed ways more than any other person on this board. That\'s OK Billy, apparently everyone else on the board sees clear as I do.

Thanks for the good laugh though.


[Edited on 6/12/2003 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 12-06-2003, 12:14 AM   #5
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BillyC
You have told me that Brooks is to blame for the offensive troubles this year. You stated the resaon for that was because he has turned the ball over more than anyone else on the team. Is that correct so far?
-----------------------------------------------
WhoDat
No, wrong. I\'ve said over and over that there have been many problems with the offense.
It\'s amazing what I have to go through to get you to admit Brooks isn\'t the problem. I deserve some kind of award here.

BillyC
You also contend that Brooks\' turnovers have killed more drives than penalties, dropped passes, and everything else, because you contend these don\'t neccessarily kill drives. Is that also correct?
---------------------------------------------
WhoDat
Again you are wrong. I\'ve never said this
Now we are definately making progress. You do know that penalties, dropped passes and miscues by other players are killing more drives than Brooks turovers. Progress indeed !!

WhoDat -- The fact of the matter is QB\'s commit more turnovers than any other single player on offense and it\'s not fair to compare a QB\'s turnovers to a running back or ANYONE else on offense. The QB is so dependent on the other 10-guys and if anyone or them make a mistake it can adversely effect the QB much more than any other position on the offense. What I\'m trying to say here is that if you add up all the mistakes by the other 10-players on offesne that then you will see the BIG reason why the offense is struggling. Sure, Brooks plays a big part in it also, but so does EVERY other QB in their offense.

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Old 12-06-2003, 09:41 AM   #6
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Hey guys. Haven\'t been around in a while. The end of the semester is a bee ouch. Hope everyone is doing well. Looks like we have a chance to stumble like a frat boy on Fat Tuesday into the playoffs. Fine by me. I\'m getting to the point that I don\'t care how we get there. Just get there if you can... (cue music)

BillyC, hope you don\'t mind if I comment here. I don\'t know all the background of the argument, but here\'s my two cents on what\'s been written so far on this thread.

I don\'t think it\'s fair to compare ANY QB\'s turnovers to any other player on offense. After all, no other player has the opportunity to turn the ball over like a QB.
Absolutely. I agree 100 percent. No other player touches the ball more than the qb. The offense must run through him.

Also, some interceptions are simply not the fault of the qb. Bad routes, tipped balls, etc. cause passes to be picked off. You hold the qb solely responsible for those, even though they go on his stats.

I do think it\'s fair to combine the other 10-players mistakes and compare them to the mistakes by a QB. I say that all of the mistakes added up by the other 10-guys on offense is contributing more to the lack of success on offense than Brooks.
I\'m not sure what you mean by \'mistakes\' here. Turnovers, of course. But are you also including penalties? Are linemen included? If so, are you talking about missed blocks, assignments, etc?

I think it is a bit extreme if you go that far. I would say that it\'s fair to compare qb turnovers to the total of turnovers by the other skill positions on offense. I\'d say we could include fumbles and dropped passes. That\'s fair, in my opinion and would be interesting to analyze.

On that note, since I\'m too darned lazy to do it myself, I love to see one of you stat-hawks compile that information for us.

Oh, and since we are all comenting on Aaron Brooks, I think he\'s one of the best qb\'s the Saints have ever had. I hope that he is successful. I will admit that I\'ve never had a harder time liking a Saints player. I\'m not exactly sure why. Maybe it\'s because I know that he is talented, but I do not always feel like he wants the W as badly as I do. I know that there is no way to measure this feeling and that my reaction to him is not based on statistical analysis. Part of being a fan of anything, however, is emotion. What can you do...

I\'ve rambled enough. Good to be back.
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Old 12-06-2003, 10:23 AM   #7
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I\'m not sure what you mean by \'mistakes\' here. Turnovers, of course. But are you also including penalties? Are linemen included? If so, are you talking about missed blocks, assignments, etc?

whowatches -- This debate is simple really. WhoDat has been comparing Brook\'s turnovers to other positions on offense. This really proves NOTHING. Just about every QB has more turnovers than ANY other position on offense. WhoDat, then goes on to say that turnovers are the only thing that ABSOLUTELY kill drives. He say\'s that penalties, and dropped passes aren\'t drive killers because they can be overcome. Again this statement is true but PROVES nothing.

The only thing I have been trying to prove to the Brooks\' bashers is that he isn\'t the reason this offense hasn\'t been productive. If you really want to get down to why drives are being killed, one might need to look at the other 10-guys on offense for a CHANGE.

I use the term \" OTHER 10 GUYS\" because they must be looked at as a GROUP. You can\'t single one of the other 10-guys out and say he is the reason for the penalties. While he may be commiting some penalties, he isn\'t most to blame. It\'s been just about every player on offense commiting those pentalies at different times.

The ONLY reason I compare \"THE OTHER 10-GUYS\" mistakes to Aaron Brooks, is because WhoDat wants to compare his turnovers to ONE other player on offense and say Brooks\' has played worse than that ONE player. It\'s just not a valid arguement.

Since WhoDat is trying to compare ONE other player\'s turnovers to Brooks. I am simply saying that the mistakes commited by the \"10-other players have collectively added up to stall more drives than Brooks.



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Old 12-06-2003, 10:43 AM   #8
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Interesting.

I completely agree that no qb should have to measure his turnovers against any other single player on the offense. That is ridiculous.

I understand your point about comparing Brooks\'s mistakes to the other ten players. Can this be measured? If so, what are the results? What kind of mistakes are you talking about? Is there a physical measurement here or are you just speaking hypothetical in order to make a point (which I think is a valid one)?

As an aside, I\'m curious: Since we discuss quarterbacking (and AB specifically) ad nauseam, have we ever agreed on a fair criteria for how to evaluate a qb? I\'m pretty sure the answer is no, but wouldn\'t it be nice if we could all hammer out a fair standard of evaluation and then use that standard as a basis for our discussion of the Saints beloved number two.

At the very least, this could add some structure to our ravings? Any thoughts?



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Old 12-06-2003, 10:48 AM   #9
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O.K. Let\'s narrow this down. If it weren\'t for Deuce, the Saints offense would be anemic. He makes rushing for a loss look good. The offensive line has been penalized more than Alabama\'s football program, the receivers can\'t catch clap in a whore house, and Aaron Brooks is like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. He can be one of the biggest problems or he can play lights out. It\'s not ALL Aaron\'s fault. I\'m not defending Aaron by any stretch of the imagination, but his decision making isn\'t always the best. AB is a good QB. but he still has a lot to learn. I\'m not anit- or pro-Brooks, I\'m just pro-victories. I\'m not insinuating that people are saying that he\'s the reason for our wins or losses. It\'s a team effort. It comes down to a simplistic saying....when the TEAM plays well, they win. When they play pathetic, we lose. It can\'t be more simple than that.

People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:12 AM   #10
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Now we are definately making progress. You do know that penalties, dropped passes and miscues by other players are killing more drives than Brooks turovers.
I don\'t know what victory you think you\'ve won, but it\'s only the one with the voices in your head Billy. Never did I say that on the SEASON Brooks has committed more mistakes than the rest of the team combined. I cited two games in which his turnovers hurt more than anything else.

Now, you contend that the rest of this team is hurting Brooks more than he is hurting them. Nonsense, and you can\'t look at that by comparing the number of turnovers Brooks has versus the number of false starts that the offense has. There is more to the game then that. What hurts more Billy? An INT on our own 10 yard line, or a holding penalty at the 50 yard line? We already had this debate and I won. Try comparing Brooks\' numbers to other premier QBs. Does he hurt our offense more then they hurt theirs? Yes, I demonstrated that already.

What I wonder about is how you can think Brooks is the strong link here and the rest of the offense is holding him back. Our O-line and FB have produced the second leading rusher in the league. Two guys from that group could very well go to the Pro Bowl, add Deuce and that\'s 3. If memory serves, we\'re in the top part of the league in sacks allowed, so it\'s not like the pressure is killing us. Horn had the dropsies for a couple of games earlier in the season, but he also has played through some big injuries and come up big. After the three games Conwell had the dropsies, he played solid football. Boo\'s coming up big now. So how you can think that this team is holding AB back is beyond me.

But frankly, I\'m done arguing this point with you Billy. Go ahead and keep living in your Tang induced, goggle skewed dream world. I\'ve been far too masochistic dealing with you, and I\'m tired of banging my head against the wall.

[Edited on 6/12/2003 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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