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saintz08 12-09-2003 11:12 PM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
The following is the All Time single season fumble record for the New Orleans Saints

The Leaders are :

Season
13 Aaron Brooks, 2001 (3 lost)
11 George Rogers, 1981 (6 lost)
11 Aaron Brooks, 2002 (5 lost)

Brooks current record is :

13 Aaron Brooks , 2003 (10 lost )

Will Brooks set a new Saints record ???

BillyC 12-09-2003 11:36 PM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Brett Favre Fumbles
1995 Green Bay 8
1996 Green Bay 10
1997 Green Bay 7
1998 Green Bay 8
1999 Green Bay 9
2000 Green Bay 9
2001 Green Bay 16
2002 Green Bay 10
2003 Green Bay 5


John Elway Fumbles
1983 DEN 6
1984 DEN 14
1985 DEN 7
1986 DEN 8
1987 DEN 2
1988 DEN 7
1989 DEN 9
1990 DEN 8
1991 DEN 12
1992 DEN 12
1993 DEN 8
1994 DEN 11
1995 DEN 9
1996 DEN 6
1997 DEN 11
1998 DEN 7

If anyone wants to make a case that Brooks should be cut for fumbling, you might want to rethink that arguement. Unless, you are willing to apply that same logic to Brett Favre and John Elway.

I understand that some folks are going to use everything in the world to say Brooks is terrible and this is something that has never happened in the history of the NFL, but it\'s nothing unique to Brooks. It\'s a problem that Brooks must correct, but certainly not one to calling for his head.

Just about all QB\'s lead there teams in fumbles each year. Some fumble more than others. It\'s correctable....

saintz08 12-09-2003 11:43 PM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

If anyone wants to make a case that Brooks should be cut for fumbling, you might want to rethink that arguement. Unless, you are willing to apply that same logic to Brett Favre and John Elway.
Sure

You adjust their totals to eliminate all games in cold , wet or snow conditions and we can have that conversation .

BillyC 12-09-2003 11:56 PM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

Quote:

If anyone wants to make a case that Brooks should be cut for fumbling, you might want to rethink that arguement. Unless, you are willing to apply that same logic to Brett Favre and John Elway.
Sure

You adjust their totals to eliminate all games in cold , wet or snow conditions and we can have that conversation .
Ok 08, let me shoot that down real quick

Jim Kelly Fumbles
1986 BUF 7
1987 BUF 6
1988 BUF 5
1989 BUF 6
1990 BUF 4
1991 BUF 6
1992 BUF 8
1993 BUF 7
1994 BUF 11
1995 BUF 7
1996 BUF 5

Ol\' Jim played in the worse place of all and didn\'t have the fumbling problem. It happens to some QB\'s and some it don\'t. Got any more grips with my arguement? Why can\'t you people see that other QB\'s have gone through this. I\'ll tell ya why. You don\'t like Brooks. :o

saintz08 12-10-2003 12:23 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

Why can\'t you people see that other QB\'s have gone through this. I\'ll tell ya why. You don\'t like Brooks.
\"He\'s got big hands. So it\'s not his hands. And he\'s strong. It\'s not his strength. There\'s got to be a reason.\"

But the bottom line, Haslett said, is winning. And Brooks\' 18 turnovers are the primary reason the Saints have a minus-6 giveaway-takeaway ratio, which is tied for 23rd in the league.


Ol Jim , I guess he had a grip on the situation .. :P

BillyC 12-10-2003 12:52 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
I\'ll chew on that as well 08.

Now, here\'s something for you to chew on....

John Elway Fumbles first 3 years.
1983 DEN 6
1984 DEN 14
1985 DEN 7

John Elway passing stats first 3-years.

Year Team Comp Att Comp% Yds Yd/Att TD INT Sacked-Yds Rating
1983 Den 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 28- 218 54.9
1984 Den 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 24- 158 76.8
1985 Den 327 605 54.0 3891 6.4 22 23 38- 307 70.2


Aaron Brooks Fumbles first 3 years
2000 New Orleans Saints 4
2001 New Orleans Saints 13
2002 New Orleans Saints 11

Aaron Brooks stats first 3 years.
2000 New Orleans Saints 8 5 194 113 58.2 1514 7.80 53 9 6 15/94 20 4 85.7
2001 New Orleans Saints 16 16 558 312 55.9 3832 6.87 63 26 22 50/330 55 13 76.4
2002 New Orleans Saints 16 16 528 283 53.6 3572 6.77 64 27 15 36/236 47 12 80.1


All I\'m saying is don\'t be so quick to write someone off. Elway was just as erratic as Brooks. There\'s no arguing that. It happens.



[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]

saintz08 12-10-2003 04:28 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Elway is an interesting comparison .

Elway does not even gain control of the offense until the 85 season .

In 83 Elway is mop up boy to DeBerg
In 84 Elway is in a dog fight with Kubiak , although he eventually wins out he still split time with Kubiak

85 elway has the keys and is seated as the number 1 .


BlackandBlue 12-10-2003 08:10 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
You CONSTANTLY compare Brooks to great quarterbacks, stating that everyone should be patient, and everyone has an agenda. It\'s old. Like the QB\'s that you compare Brooks to, old old old. This is a different era, thanks to free agency. The window of opportunity necessitates a quick turnaround on your investment. You no longer have the ability to wait for a player to mature, even though his progress from his first season to his last appears to be digressing.
08 posts a thread concerning whether or not AB would break the Saints single season record, and here you come with stats of **** that have nothing to do with the Saints. I\'ll wait for you to come back with one of the following steller comments:

\"If this were coming from someone that worked in the NFL, then I might actually take it into account\" or....
\" You, sir, have an agenda- keep drinking your 08-eraide (or tang-eraid, or whatever the hell it is ya\'ll are always referring to)\"
\"I have meaningless stats that prove you are wrong, even though the stats have nothing to do with the topic at hand.\"

Or maybe you reserve those strictly for WhoDat\'s posts. :P

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BlackandBlue]

BillyC 12-10-2003 08:32 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
B&B --

So, because Elway had his fumbles in the 80\'s this disqualifies any arguement between him and Brooks? Was fumbling more accecptable then? I make a very fair comparisoin. It\'s relevent and fair. I\'m not making any of this up. Just becuase you think the window of opportunity has closed had nothing to do with it. The fact is NO ONE knows what kind of career Brooks will go on to have. Brooks has regressed? In fumbles true enough. He has also improved in many areas. Completion percentage is up and would be even higher if not for ALL the dropped passes. He also leads the NFL in passes per interception ratio.

The comparison came from me, but the fumbling stats came from the players on the field. I had no hand in it. I find it funny that your arguement is so weak? Try being open minded. It\'s helped many QB\'s to further their careeers.

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]

JOESAM2002 12-10-2003 08:41 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Oh my God! Tired of the Brooks is great debate? Come on B&B, get on the program. As long as BillyC is a member here and as long as we have a board , this drivel will go on. I get tired of it too but, we, alas are powerless to change his mind. To Billy, AB is king, he will be in Canton next weekend for induction. (Actually, I have it on good authority, that AB will be giving a demonstration on walking on water at the RiverFront, next weekend.)

And to top all this crap off, you go and change my quote? What\'s up with that?

lumm0x 12-10-2003 08:43 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Personally I have no desire to crucify a QB for a fumble in a case where it is a forced turnover. If the QB has cocked his arm to release the ball and a defender grabs the passing hand causing the fumble I don\'t blame the QB. Even blown blocking assignments that don\'t allow for 3 second pockets. It\'s the unforced, lack of concentration fumbles that make me break things. This fumbling arguement that has involved HOF QB\'s needs to be a relative comparison. Do you have any stats that quote unforced turnovers? Because I think that is the issue people are mad about.

BillyC 12-10-2003 08:57 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
LummOx --

I do know that Brooks has 2 unforced fumbles this year. Let\'s be honest here. Most of the folks that are calling for Brooks head because of the fumbles are the same folks that wanted him gone a long time ago.

The bottom line is other QB\'s have had this problem besides Brooks and Elway. It happens and if it is correctable. No one has given in solid arguements as to why Brooks should be cut. At least I make a fair comparison. They just want him gone because they think he has done something that warrants getting rid of him. But the FACT is other QB\'s have done the samethings Brooks has done and gone on to have great careers.

Also, no one want\'s to talk about ANY of the positives of Brooks. Sounds unfair to me.

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]

D_it_up 12-10-2003 08:59 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Good retort, Lumm0x. No one has seemed to clarify that, but I believe you\'re right about everyone being upset about the \"unforced\" fumbles. AB does it WAY too much. BillyC has compared Brooks to Elway and Favre? That is like comparing Shawn Bradley to Shaquille O\'Neal. Elway and Favre have been perrenial WINNERS. What has Brooks done? He lead the team to ONE playoff victory that wouldn\'t have even happened had it not been for Az-Hakim. Not saying that Brooks hasn\'t done anything, because he\'s been consistently average for the NFL, and as a Saint, he\'s been great......statistically. I think the majority of us find Brooks as a major disappointment because of the playoff win. We expected much more and he hasn\'t delivered. Sure it\'s a team effort, but AB hasn\'t shown anything to me or I\'m sure many of us that he\'s the man to do it again in the playoffs. A change of scenery or a change of coaching is exactly what he needs. Haslett has spoiled him too long into being passive about every bad play, bad throw, or bad game. Some coach out there is going to light a fire under his ass. Brooks has a lot of potential......I just don\'t see it in New Orleans.

BillyC 12-10-2003 09:04 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

BillyC has compared Brooks to Elway and Favre? That is like comparing Shawn Bradley to Shaquille O\'Neal. Elway and Favre have been perrenial WINNERS. What has Brooks done? He lead the team to ONE playoff victory that wouldn\'t have even happened had it not been for Az-Hakim.
Ditup -- Who\'s to say what kind of career Brooks will go on to have. Favre and Elway weren\'t perrenial winners in their first 3-years and they weren\'t hall of fame players either. Why is it so hard to see that other QB\'s have had simular problems? Like I said, I ain\'t making this up. If I would of comapred Brooks to Patrick Ramsy would it have been a more valid arguement. Is that what you are trying to tell me?

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]

D_it_up 12-10-2003 09:13 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
BillyC! Did you stop reading my post right after you read that comment? If you did, let me show what else I said:

Quote:

. A change of scenery or a change of coaching is exactly what he needs. Haslett has spoiled him too long into being passive about every bad play, bad throw, or bad game. Some coach out there is going to light a fire under his ass. Brooks has a lot of potential......I just don\'t see it in New Orleans.
I TOO believe that AB has the potential to be a good, if not great, QB. I just don\'t see it happening under Haslett. It probably won\'t happen in the city of New Orleans either because it would take a Super Bowl victory for the 99.9% of the Saints fans to support him now. No, I didn\'t rant and rave over Brooks and why I think he could be great. I shouldn\'t have to. I\'m sure most people can SEE that, but he just doesn\'t have his head on straight, and obviously Haslett hasn\'t done anything to cure that in the past few seasons either.

BillyC 12-10-2003 09:14 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

As long as BillyC is a member here and as long as we have a board , this drivel will go on.
You know I brought this same arguement up on another saints board and it was discussed intelligently. The moderators sure as hell didn\'t come tell me it was drivel. I won\'t attack you though Joe. I\'ll just smile.

BillyC 12-10-2003 09:18 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
D_it_up2 --

Yeah man I read it and I agree with you to a point. I am just saying I feel my arguement shows where other QB\'s have had simular problems and overcome them. Maybe Brooks will follow suit or maybe he won\'t. I just think he deserves a chance to show he can hold on to the ball.

Danno 12-10-2003 09:26 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

Quote:

BillyC has compared Brooks to Elway and Favre? That is like comparing Shawn Bradley to Shaquille O\'Neal. Elway and Favre have been perrenial WINNERS. What has Brooks done? He lead the team to ONE playoff victory that wouldn\'t have even happened had it not been for Az-Hakim.
Ditup -- Who\'s to say what kind of career Brooks will go on to have. Favre and Elway weren\'t peffenial winners in their first 3-years and they weren\'t hall of fame players either. Why is it so hard to see that other QB\'s have had simular problems? Like I said, I ain\'t making this up. If I would of comapred Brooks to Patrick Ramsy would it have been a more valid arguement. Is that what you are trying to tell me?
John Elway-Practically booed out of Denver his 1st few years. Boneheaded play plagued him often

Brett Favre-Couldn\'t get through a game without a dumb throw that resulted in a costly turnover.

Both of these players didn\'t get any respect until their 3rd or 4th years.
Can Brooks become a Favre or Elway? Doubtful. But the pattern of early inconsistency is noteworthy.

I think Brooks can develop into a QB much like a Randal Cunningham or a young Jeff Blake, back when he used to chunk it deep frequently to Pickens and whats-his-name.

D_it_up 12-10-2003 09:32 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Darnay Scott, by the way. You\'re right about those two QB\'s. They did overcome a TON of adversity, but I think the majority of Saints fans have made up their minds. If i\'m not mistaken, Elway and Favre brought those two teams back during rebuilding periods for their respective franchises. Neither were that good when they joined their teams. However, Brooks mopped up where Jeff Blake left off. He continued the Saints to the playoffs and has done nothing but regress mentally ever since. That\'s why I think that he won\'t be the Saints QB for very much longer. If he is, Jim Haslett won\'t be the one to coach him. Something has GOT to change.

BlackandBlue 12-10-2003 09:36 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

So, because Elway had his fumbles in the 80\'s this disqualifies any arguement between him and Brooks?
Not when we are talking NFL comparisons, but I was under the impression that this thread was about Brooks and a Saints record. I\'m trying to figure out when Elway played for the Saints.

Quote:

And to top all this crap off, you go and change my quote? What\'s up with that?
I...er....well...see...um....no comment.

BillyC 12-10-2003 09:41 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

Not when we are talking NFL comparisons, but I was under the impression that this thread was about Brooks and a Saints record. I\'m trying to figure out when Elway played for the Saints.
OK, but let me know when you find another thread that stayed on topic throughout. I thought since we were talking about Saints fumble records that a little perspective might be in order. Maybe that record is the lowest of any team in the legue. Maybe it\'s the highest. But without comparing no one would know. At least we know now that other QB\'s have had as many or MORE fumbles. No need to thank me. :P

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]

BlackandBlue 12-10-2003 09:50 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

No need to thank me.
For what? Causing this thread to fall into the same cat and mouse chase that every single stinking other thread that has anything to do with Aaron Brooks falls into on this damn site? Keep on waiting for that \"Thank you\", I\'m sure I\'ll get around to it about the middle of next never.

Quote:

OK, but let me know when you find another thread that stayed on topic throughout.
Exactly. Care to point out the post where this particular thread went outside topic?

BillyC 12-10-2003 09:57 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
B&B --

Where were you at when I brought up that penalities and dropped passes were hurting drives anda Brooks basher hijacked my thread?
I\'ll keep making valid points.

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]

BlackandBlue 12-10-2003 10:07 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
If addressing the questions in my last post were too tough for you, simply admit it (two can play that game, Billy). If me being part of the \"good ole boy\" helps your argument or maybe makes you sleep better at night, cool, I\'m all for it. If belittling statements like, \"You let me know when it\'s more than you can bear,\" help your argument, well, ok, although I don\'t see how it does. You, as well as anyone else here knows, I follow my own logic, nobody else\'s. I don\'t claim to follow anyone here in particular, I\'ll call you out in the same manner that I would call WhoDat out if I ever were to disagree with him, or tweeky, or gator, or nocloning, or anyone else.

BillyC 12-10-2003 10:11 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

If belittling statements like, \"You let me know when it\'s more than you can bear,\" help your argument, well, ok, although I don\'t see how it does.
Quote:

B&B--
and here you come with stats of **** that have nothing to do with the Saints.
I beleive it was you that started the belittling. Not I. Becuasue you don\'t agree makes you right? Care to argue that point?

BlackandBlue 12-10-2003 10:21 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
I made that statement because you went off-topic on the 2nd post of the thread. Was I wrong in my statement? Do the stats you presented have anything to do with the Saints?

Many others have stated in the past how there is no reasoning with you. I understand it completely. You see, I get beat down with the same argument over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. If I never see another AB thread, I\'ll be one happy mofo.

Danno 12-10-2003 10:25 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. If I never see another AB thread, I\'ll be one happy mofo.
DITTO!!!!!

BillyC 12-10-2003 10:26 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

I made that statement because you went off-topic on the 2nd post of the thread. Was I wrong in my statement? Do the stats you presented have anything to do with the Saints?

Many others have stated in the past how there is no reasoning with you. I understand it completely. You see, I get beat down with the same argument over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. If I never see another AB thread, I\'ll be one happy mofo.
Does it specifically have to do with the Saints team? NO !! It does however put the record in some kind of context. And you come in here talking about \"stats of ****\"

Before you start talking about someone belittling someone you might want to read your own posts. Who the hell cares WHY you belittle someone?

BlackandBlue 12-10-2003 10:32 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Where did I belittle anyone. Poor Billy gets his little feelings hurt because I called his stats \"\"? Give me a break.

Come on now I know you know better.

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]

BillyC 12-10-2003 10:33 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Quote:

Where did I belittle anyone. Poor Billy gets his little feelings hurt because I called his stats \"\"? Give me a break.
It was YOU who got their feelings hurt. It was YOU who brought up belittling someone. Not I. Now who\'s feelings got hurt? Please !!

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]

Danno 12-10-2003 10:37 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
http://www.nfl.com/u/nfl/photos/nflb01_lower.jpg

BlackandBlue 12-10-2003 10:44 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
Once again, where did I belittle anyone? You have this amazing ability to evade questions while you post. You\'ve managed to not address a single question I\'ve posed to you.
Feelings hurt? No, can\'t remember the last time that happened. And I sure as hell won\'t get my feelings hurt by someone I don\'t even know, save a message board. Annoyed with AB arguments? Absolutely. You\'re methods are quite amazing. You walk that fine line between passive sarcasm and personal attacks. I actually admire it, I can\'t let loose like I used to because of some promises I made, and I always keep my promises. But I could in no way walk that line, it\'s either one extreme or the other with me.

lumm0x 12-10-2003 10:54 AM

Will Brooks break Saints record ???
 
I\'m on board with the concept that Brooks either needs a change of scenery or a new coach to succeed. I think a fair comparison in terms of possible change in effectiveness would be Quincy Carter. I\'m not saying Carter was anywhere near the talent or production of Brooks then or now, but I believe Brooks has the ability to step up his game through motivation and coaching to the similar degree.
I\'m not prepared to write off his potential at this point, but I would like to see the effect of a change for Brook\'s sake, be it another team or a different coach here.
Although I do not like him as a coaching prospect, I wonder what Gary Kubiak could do for Brooks?


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