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BillyC 01-12-2004 03:57 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
There's been a lot of talk about intangibles and leadership. I'd like to know who y'all consider the greatest leader of a sports team ever? You can pick any sport. I'd also like to know what makes you think that person is a great leader?

I pick Michael Jordon. To me Jordan was capible of taking a game over by himself, but, beyond that, he raised everyone else's game around him to another level. Also, he wouldn't tolerate mistakes and losing.

BrooksMustGo 01-12-2004 06:40 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Aaron Brooks

His ability to be lackadasical and smile after game killing mistakes helps to remind the rest of the team that football is just a game. No need to get all worked up over something as minor as a game. Besides, we all just love him, hate him and then love him again.

But seriously, I\'d say Johnny U. No one else in football history even comes close.

BlackandBlue 01-12-2004 08:12 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Too tough a question to answer. You can take Jordan\'s name out and put Gretzky, if you so desired, he had the same effect on the teams he played for.
A better question would be, \"Who is the leader on the Saints?\" As important as having a leader on a team is, surely someone has stepped up to bat. Shockingly, I\'d say we don\'t have one, on either side of the ball. We don\'t have a Ray Lewis, or a Michael Irvin, or a Brett Favre- someone that will get in a teammates\' face and call him to the floor. I was hoping it would be Howard, but it\'s hard to be a field general when you\'re injured. Maybe he can do it, maybe he can\'t. But we need someone on this team that has the ability to almost \"will\" his team to win, when it matters.

WhoDat 01-12-2004 09:15 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Vince Lombardi, hands down. If we\'re talking player... Joe Montana is probably still the best I\'ve seen. Jordan was maybe the most dominant athlete I\'ve ever seen, but that doesn\'t necessarily make you a good leader. He was a better leader with the Wizards than he ever was in Chicago. In Chi-town he was selfish, but unstoppable.

WhoDat 01-12-2004 09:18 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Oh, and I agree BnB. I wouldn\'t trade Deuce for anyone, but I do wish he was a little less subdued and a little more vocal. That would help a lot. I think it\'s easy to see the guy puts his heart and soul into the game, I just wish he vocalized that desire and drive too. But hey, who needs a leader when you have Aaron Brooks? ;) Good thing we got rid of that good for nothing Jake Delhomme. LMAO.

saintz08 01-13-2004 12:04 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Since we are in a football forum I will go with football .

Liked the Johnny U pick and Montana should certainly top every list but for my money I have to go with one player who played and excelled at his position but gave his due along the way to God and Country . A leader on and off the field in his time and a respected player among all . Roger Staubach .

What we need is the all time favorite United Way commercial . Mine has to be without a doubt , La Roi Glover and the cake ....

[Edited on 13/1/2004 by saintz08]

D_it_up 01-13-2004 08:23 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Darren Howard\'s commercial holding the kid up while he shouted \"I\'M THE KING OF THE WORLD!!!\" was pretty funny, too.

BillyC 01-13-2004 08:42 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
B&B said the exact thing I was thinking, which is, we don\'t have a leader on offense or defense. I also don\'t feel like Haslett is a true leader. I thought the best decision Haslett made was when he told Brooks to quit fumbling or else. After that, Brooks played as well as anyone could ask.

I believe Haslett needs to be more firm and more demanding of ALL the players. I feel since we don\'t have a true leader on this team, that Haslett needs to assume the leadership role, until a true leader emerges. I also think Haslett needs to help put some player(s) in more of a leadership role.

I think when Haslett keeps letting a player make the same mistakes over and over, that it\'s not setting a good example and that a leader is not going to emerge because of that.

Bottom line is that we need a leader on this team and it\'s Haslett\'s responsibility to make that happen!!

WhoDat 01-13-2004 09:03 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
BC, I want to ask a simple question to clarify something. By these statements, I take you to be implying that Haslett gave AB special treatment:

Quote:

I believe Haslett needs to be more firm and more demanding of ALL the players.
Quote:

I think when Haslett keeps letting a player make the same mistakes over and over, that it\'s not setting a good example and that a leader is not going to emerge because of that.
I guess you could be talking about the entire team here b/c they were all pretty much mistake prone all season, but was that an allusion to AB?


Overall, I have to agree about Haslett. Of the teams in Championship games this season, only Indy has a true leader ON THE FIELD in Peyton Manning. Carolina seems to rally behind Jake, but I don\'t see him as Joe Montana or Johnny U quite yet. Philly\'s premier player is McNabb, but is he really a great leader on the field? I see Reid as the leader there. Same with Belicheck in NE - that was definitely the case with Dallas and Seattle. Denver too.

The point I\'m trying to make, somewhat inarticulately at the moment, is that I think it is more important to have a strong leader at head coach than it is to have a Favre, Manning, Ray Lewis, or Warren Sapp type player on the field. While it certainly helps to have a guy, or a few guys, on the field who are real leaders, having a Parcells or Belicheck type coach is more important to a team\'s success. That\'s just my opinion. Once a coach loses that respect from his players and can no longer be a leader, it doesn\'t matter how good he is, it\'s all over. Dan Reeves is a good example of that this season. Callahan, Fassel, etc. These guys aren\'t bad coaches, they just lost their teams. I think Haslett lost this team in late \'02. I\'m doubtful that there is much that he can do to get it back.

BillyC 01-13-2004 09:15 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
I don\'t know if Haslett gave AB special treatment. What I do believe is that he coddled AB too much. I think it comes a point in time when you have to take the kid gloves off and hold a man accountable. QB\'s are a little different breed than other players, IMO, and I especiallty believe that with YOUNG QB\'s. So, special treatment? I don\'t know. Coddled, yes!!

WhoDat -- The rest of what you posted, I COMPLETELY agree with. Haslett is not a leader!! He makes me nerveous as hell, just watching him on the sideline. He certainly doesn\'t ooze confidence, and instead looks panicked all the time. Anway, I couldn\'t really add anything to what you said. You\'re right on the money!!

[Edited on 13/1/2004 by BillyC]

WhoDat 01-13-2004 01:40 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Glad that we agree Billy. Also, those of us on the Delhomme side of the fence said that Haslett didn\'t play Delhomme at the end of \'02 because he was too scared to hurt Brooks\' fragile ego - that sounds a lot like \"coddling\" to me. That decision probably cost us a playoff spot. That\'s why I\'ve been up in arms for the last 18 months or so. I knew eventually you\'d see it my way, some of us are just slower than others. ;) Just kidding amigo.

BillyC 01-13-2004 03:56 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Quote:

Also, those of us on the Delhomme side of the fence said that Haslett didn\'t play Delhomme at the end of \'02 because he was too scared to hurt Brooks\' fragile ego
That\'s the problem I have with folks that think like that, WhoDat. You CLEARLY have an agenda, and let me tell ya why!!

You seem like an intelligent guy, right? Well, do you think that every coach that has played a QB that is injuried, is coddling his QB? A yes or no answer will do just fine. I\'m going to assume you would say NO, since you are an intelligent guy.

So, I ask you, what\'s unique about what Haslett did by not pulling Brooks out when he was injuried? Maybe, just maybe, you feel that way because you have Delhomme Goggles on?

I believe Brett Favre played with a broken thumb for a lot of this season and it was being blamed for a lot of the interceptions and fumbles Favre had. I\'m sure that was the case. But, that\'s just one example......There are many more. Remember Leftwitch playing with a broken ankle in college? QB\'s playing with broken ribs? It goes on and on and on and on...........

[Edited on 13/1/2004 by BillyC]

WhoDat 01-13-2004 04:47 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Wait a minute. You just said that Haslett has coddled Brooks did you not? Now, when I say that coddling kept the man in the game when he was hurt you erupt? Make up your mind, then we\'ll continue this discussion. Why is OK for you to say that Haslett coddled Brooks, but when I say it I obviously have an agenda?

I think you have a pro-Brooks and pro-Haslett agenda that doesn\'t let you see the errors the rest of us see clearly.

BillyC 01-13-2004 04:49 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Yes, I said he coddled him, but not because he made him play hurt. I said that because he didn\'t demand more of him. There\'s no agenda here WhoDat. Just the way I see it. You are doing a lot of speculating and that\'s putting it mildly.

WhoDat 01-13-2004 05:05 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
I don\'t see a lot of speculation, maybe you can point it out for me.

I said that Haslett evaluated Delhomme and said that he could be a starter in a lot of places around the league.

I said that Haslett coddled Brooks.

I said that Haslett decided not to play Delhomme when Brooks was hurt.

I said that with Brooks at the helm, the Saints tanked in \'02.

Where is there subjectivity in the statements above that you do not openly agree with?

I have made the following assumptions:
1. Playing Brooks at the end of \'02 probably cost us the playoffs.
2. Haslett did not play Delhomme when he needed a healthy QB despite talking about how good Delhomme was or could be. I estimate that he didn\'t give Delhomme a fair shot b/c it\'s hard to be objective when you\'re busy coddling a player.


I ask you this Billy: If you think that Haslett was coddling one QB, do you think that he honestly could have simultaneously been totally fair in his evaluation and use of another? That\'s kind of hard to believe for me b/c by definition coddling involves special treatment. YOU talked about special treatment in an early post in this thread. Sounds like you\'re trying to simultaneously be on both sides of this fence to me. ;)

BillyC 01-13-2004 05:08 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Quote:

Also, those of us on the Delhomme side of the fence said that Haslett didn\'t play Delhomme at the end of \'02 because he was too scared to hurt Brooks\' fragile ego
This is the ONE and ONLY statement I was referring to. Exactly what makes you think that, as opposed to Haslett thought that gave us the best chance of winning. Also, do you think John Fox was coddling Rodney Peet when he chose to start him over Delhomme. Do you think Sherman was coddling Favre when he refused to pull him out of the game when a broken thumb was being blamed for the interceptions and the fumbling. Your logic is flawed and show\'s a reach(agenda) to me.

WhoDat 01-13-2004 05:17 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Not at all. I think Haslett was coddling Brooks. He didn\'t hold him accountable for his play on the field. Maybe he didn\'t leave him in to protect his ego but the fact that he was in shows special treatment to me. You never even put Jake in for a SINGLE series in the last three games? He played a HALF in the Baltimore game. So he was good enough to make sure we won the game in Baltimore, but not good enough to come in for a single series thereafter... against three LOSING teams with defenses WORSE than Baltimore\'s. How does that make sense?

It doesn\'t - so either Haslett really did think Brooks gave us the best chance to win, which to me shows the inability to evaluate talent, or he coddle the man, which shows the inability to allow for the fair evaluation of talent. Either way, Haslett F-ed up - it\'s lose lose for the guy.

As for the Delhomme vs. Pete issue - it was proably still close at that point in the season. Pete was your starter. It\'s his job to lose, barring injury. Unlike Haslett, when Pete sucked, Fox pulled the starter and gave his backup a chance. Imagine that. Hhmm, what happened in that game by the way? A 3 TD second half and come from behind win. Interesting what happens when you give an able backup a chance huh?

As for Favre, c\'mon. You\'re talking about one of the five or ten best QBs of all time. He plays when he\'s hurt just like Manning and McNair do - b/c they unquestionably give their teams better chances at winning. Look at what McNair and Favre have done while injured - the guys are magicians. Let\'s not compare the Brooks/Delhomme situation to the Favre/??? situation.

BillyC 01-13-2004 05:21 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Well, you\'re more fair there. The truth is there\'s no reason to believe that Haslett was coddling Brooks by insisting he played hurt. That\'s a common occurance in the NFL.

I think he just didn\'t have faith in Delhomme and maybe it was a mistake. But like I said, you are reaching with the coddling thing. I think if he really wanted to coddle Brooks he would have pulled him because he was hurt and he would have still be the stater when he was healty. Haslett ain\'t that stupid. If he had of thought Jake could lead us to the promised land, he would have put him in.

WhoDat 01-13-2004 05:30 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
If he didn\'t have faith in Delhomme, why did he say that Delhomme was capable of being a starter in the NFL both BEFORE AND AFTER the \'02 collapse?

And further, would you not agree that Jake has proven that he can start in the NFL this season? So if we take those statements as true (that Haslett didn\'t think Jake had what it takes), then what does that say about Haslett\'s ability to evaluate talent?

Again, it\'s a lose lose proposition Billy. Either Haslett cannot evaluate talent, or he decided not to do so fairly in this instance. You may be able to justify that behavior by saying that Haslett didn\'t want another QB controversy only a year after the Blake/Brooks competition, but that still doesn\'t make his decision right. When you\'re in season you play for wins and worry about the rest later. Period. Any way you look at it Haslett screwed the pooch - he was either wrong about Delhomme, Brooks, or both - or he chose to be close-minded about it.

BillyC 01-14-2004 08:37 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Quote:

If he didn\'t have faith in Delhomme, why did he say that Delhomme was capable of being a starter in the NFL both BEFORE AND AFTER the \'02 collapse?
Allow me to clarify. I don\'t think he had as much faith in playing a healty Delhomme over an injuried Aaron Brooks.

Quote:

Either Haslett cannot evaluate talent, or he decided not to do so fairly in this instance.
That statement could be true, WhoDat. But why do you want to turn this in to a conspiracy? Let\'s be honest here. You or I neither one know what Haslett thought process was. Furthermore, we don\'t even know if it was a MISTAKE not putting Delhomme in.

It\'s easy to play Monday morning QB.

Danno 01-14-2004 09:00 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
A whole year plus 4 games and it still won\'t die. :(

JOESAM2002 01-14-2004 09:14 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
And now boys and girls, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I think the question was......Who was the greatest sports leader ever? Simple........... ME! :P

saintfan 01-14-2004 09:25 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
I never saw John U play. There are other individuals that are legendary that I never saw on the field. I remember as a kid watching Roger Staubach will the Dallas Cowboys to wins, and to me it was obvious that he had command of the team. The players that played with him respected him on and off the field, and so as much as I hate to even come close to agreeing with 08 on ANYthing ( :P ), in this case I\'d vote for Roger. Based soley on players that I saw play I\'d say Joe Montana runs a close second.

BillyC 01-14-2004 09:50 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
I used to be a big Cowboys fan in the Landry era. Staubach was the comeback king. Staubach even called his own plays. If I had to pick a QB between Montana and Staubach, I would choose Staubach.

Danno 01-14-2004 10:15 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Greatest leader - Coach (tie)
Paul Bear Bryant and Vince Lombardi.
Both got the absolute most out of his players. They demanded success, and got it.
When they said jump, you jumped and then asked \"was that far enough coach?\".
Their players would run through a brick wall for them.

Greatest Leader - Player
Has to be a QB. The QB is the designated leader of his team. If someone else is the leader you\'ve got a lousy QB. But that doesn\'t mean he has to ba an in-your-face screamer like a Marino. He can be a quiet lead by example type also. Montana wasn\'t in your face. But down by a score, he was 100% sure they would win and every player believed him. He delivered.
I\'d say its like deciding who the prettiest girl of all time is. Too many factors.
But I\'ll try, I like, in order...
Joe Namath
Joe Montana
Roger Staubach
John Elway
Dan Marino
Jim Kelly
Fran Tarkenton
Steve Young
Terry Bradshaw

My favorite leader moment was when Rickey Waters (in his prime) alligator armed a pass over the middle, and back-up QB, I think it was the elder Detmer subbing because the starter was out, walked over to Rickey on the bench and started chewing his asss non-stop, and smashed a Gatorade right at his feet and stormed off in total disgust.
While Detmer was just a very below average QB, Watters needed and deserved the butt chewing he got. Detmer displayed the kind of leadership I like to see. It had to be done, and he knew it and he did it.

JKool 01-15-2004 09:01 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
I think this is a tough question to answer, since my view of leadership (and what makes it up) changes fairly regularly.

Here is my submission for greatest leader in sports (as chosen today): Mario Lemieux.
The guy is not only a great hockey player, but he typically ranks very highly in assists and +/-, which displays that he plays all aspects of the game. Furthermore, how many guys get cancer, beat it, then return to playing at virtually the same level? None. This guy shows heart, strength, and skill.

BlackandBlue 01-15-2004 09:51 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
As far as being the most skilled hockey player ever to play the game, then yes, I would go with Lemieux. But I don\'t see him as being a good a leader as Gretzky. Lemieux made those around him better, but not to the extent that Gretzky did. To me, that\'s leadership.

WhoDat 01-15-2004 10:00 PM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
Really? We\'re talking about hockey? On a Saints board? So they have ice in New Orleans? Oh yeah, that\'s right, they sure do - imported from Canada every day. Have it flown right in, they do.

JKool 01-16-2004 02:11 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
I thought the question was open ended - who is the best leader (sports) of all time? Thus, my reply was a hockey player; perhaps that is indeed out of place.

BnB, no doubt, Gretzky did what no one else can do. No matter where he went, he empodied the game. My reason for picking Mario over Wayne is just this - Mario came back from the cancer. Don\'t get me wrong, when it comes to hockey I love Wayne the same way I think Elway never got his due, but Mario was a presence, where Wayne was sometimes a protected as a gift to the game. I\'m also a bit on the bitter side that Wayne went to Edmonton when he was on a flight to try out for my home team - the Winnipeg Jets (before they were inappropriately stolen to Phoenix - which is Bullshiznit as far as I\'m concerned).

JKool 01-16-2004 02:13 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
PS - If NO had a hockey team, I\'d be just as likely to cheer for them.

Cassady37 01-16-2004 09:19 AM

Greatest LEADER ever? (Sports)
 
I\'d have to go with Johnny U. He was not athletically-gifted with size or speed. He didn\'t play for a major college and get the benefit of having the training and preparation that today\'s athletes get. He walked on, fought for the chance to play and then proceeded to innovate the game. (Audibles, 2-minute offense) He definitely elevated the guys around him because they knew they always had a chance to win with him calling the shots. And he wasn\'t afraid to take a few for the team.


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