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Although new to this board, I have read with interest over the past year. What I fail to understand is the Arron vs Jake play. We have a guy, Todd Bouman, that by all accounts should have at least a shot at the QB job. Haslett has his "pets" and with the $$$ they gave Arron, it is no wonder they fail to see his faults. Faults=inablity to hold onto the ball and stupid defensive reads. Yes, before the blast from statistics or ratings, proof of the pudding is on the field leadership...which he has some, but not enough.

Back to lurking and awaiting the statistical points of view.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expecting a different outcome"!

[Edited on 23/1/2004 by biloxi-indian]

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Good post biloxi. You make a valid point. You never know, Bouman may be the next Kerry Collins, Mark Bulger, or Jake Delhomme. I too am eager to see what this guy can do. He did very well for the Vikings as a sub and Haslett wanted him as soon as he became the coach for the Saints. I also heard good things about him in minicamp last year. Of course he\'ll get \"a shot at the qb position\" but it would take ALOT of convincing before Haslett would put AB on the bench.

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I\'d like to see Bouman go with the first team in the preseason myself. He was the guy Haslett wanted BEFORE Brooks or Blake. I want to see what that guy can do.

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Look, why don\'t we just go with any second stringer out there? What\'s the difference. They are all unproven.

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There\'s a time and place for UNPROVEN QB\'s to prove themselves and that\'s not when your current QB is playing well. Why don\'t the Colts yank Manning and see if his back up can do a little better?

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From one viewpoint, once Brooks got his contract, his smiles and grins just don\'t cut it. It is performance in terms of wins and losses. I personally have nothing against Brooks, but his performance lacks consistency.

Why was Bouman brought in? To be the back-up. Back-ups play when the starter gets hurt, is not performing...ok, let\'s give the guy a chance or find another backup that can. Personally, from what I saw at games, I think Bouman has a rocket arm and given 1/2 the chance with the first team, would excel. What do we have to lose? Brooks? Maybe not that bad!

Just one point of view.

Insanity is doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expecting a different outcome!

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For one, it makes no sense!! From what I saw Bouman couldn\'t hit the side of a barn. You\'re going to have to give me a better reason than \"That\'s what I think\" in order for me to buy what you are selling.

[Edited on 23/1/2004 by BillyC]

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Oh BiloxiIndian --

I\'m from Biloxi too. Well, actually Long Beach, Ms. Glad to have you on board.

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Billy C, good point when your QB is playing well. What was Brooks record this year? How many fumbles does Brooks have to loose to distinguish himself from the pack of GOOD QB\'s.

As far as your Peyton comment, he is a Pro-Bowl QB this year. What was his W/L? Point being, he got them to the Promise Land, but could not open the Red Sea!

Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expecting a different outcome.

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Billy C, good to see another Mississippian aboard.

As for hitting the side of a barn, Brooks has a problem hitting the same barn. How many passes did we see SAIL over the heads of receivers during the year? Many!

I am not trying to sell anything. However, I am willing to give Bouman a chance as opposed to comparing Arron to Jake whom we do not have any longer. BTW; just think about all the qualities we did not like about Jake as a QB and look at him NOW.

I look forward to contiuning the discussion, without the sales approach. LOLOLOL

\"Insanity is doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expecting a different outcome\"!

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Peyton played a large part in getting the Colts to the playoffs, unlike some QB that get too much credit. See.........(Panthers)

However, Brooks isn\'t the reason we didn\'t make the playoffs and if that\'s what you\'re trying to suggest, then I don\'t have the time or patience to prove it to you.


You know other QB\'s fumbled the ball about as much as Brooks and made it to the playoffs and one even made it to the superbowl. One QB even threw twice as many interceptions than Brooks and his team did just fine.

Do you not notice what the REAL problems on this team is or do you just wish to concentrate on something that isn\'t a major problems. How \'bout our linebackers, shouldn\'t you be more concerned with them? How \'bout those cornerback??!!??!!


Gator -
Billy, you don\'t listen,you don\'t listen!


[Edited on 23/1/2004 by JOESAM2002]

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Billy C,

______________________________________________________________________________

However, Brooks isn\'t the reason we didn\'t make the playoffs and if that\'s what you\'re trying to suggest, then I don\'t have the time or patience to prove it to you.

You know other QB\'s fumbled the ball about as much as Brooks and made it to the playoffs and one even made it to the superbowl. One QB even threw twice as many interceptions than Brooks and his team did just fine.

Do you not notice what the REAL problems on this team is or do you just wish to concentrate on something that isn\'t a major problems. How \'bout our linebackers, shouldn\'t you be more concerned with them? How \'bout those cornerback??!!??!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can understand and respect your viewpoint but you do not have to show your arrogance or condencinding attitude.

Yes, I see other QB\'s fumbling, but not as many times as Brooks trying to take the ball back and a defender nowhere near him.

As far as the rest of the Saints, yes there are other areas I have an opinion on. But right now I am speaking of Bouman being given a chance with the first Team.

I have no agenda other to discuss issues or opinions I wish to express here. I thought this was a forum for just that...not your not having the time or patience to explain anything to anybody!

\"Insanity is doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expecting a different outcome\"!

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I think the people that are seriously suggesting that Bouman get a shot are suggesting that he get a shot in Pre-Season, and there\'s not a thing wrong with that. I doubt he could play well enough to take Brooks\' job, but if he were to outplay him then start him. I said the same thing about Jake too, and I meant it. The thing is that Jake was never able to TAKE the job. He failed to do it over and over again. Some say he wasn\'t given a fair shot in the Haz era. Well, there were many other era\'s and he failed to TAKE the starting job then, too. One of those era\'s was in Carolina\'s training camp where he failed to TAKE the job from Peete. Sometimes you just never know. Let Bouman play in a few Pre-Season games with the first team for a quarter or three. From what I\'ve seen of him (and I don\'t think he\'s terrible) I don\'t think he\'s got enough about him to take the job from Brooks...nothing wrong with letting you all see that with your own eyes tho! ;)

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saintfan,

You are accurate. All I suggested is Bouman be given a fair chance. Personally, I do not care if it is in mini-camps, pre-season, or regular season. If he is not that good, why do we have him. Cut him or give him a chance.

Brooks has his qualities, but faults as well. Don\'t we all!

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3rdNLong.

If we do not have confidence in Bouman, then let\'s cut him and get a good EXPERIENCED QB to backup or challenge Brooks.

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gatorman,

<And guys shouldn\'t create new names and enter the board.>

If directed toward me, I can assure you I have never posted on this board prior to today. If toward others, I cannot address others actions.

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gatorman,

Thanks. I have observed with interest this forum for sometime, and just thought it was time for me to post a viewpoint.

At all times, the one thing I will try to do is observe a differing viewpoint. We all have a differing slant to things and I personally do not care about anyone\'s agenda.

As a disclaimer, I have been a Saints fan as long back as to when they originally came into the league. Good times and not sooooooo good times.

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Let\'s also not forget that in preseason last year Bouman was in his what? second month with the team? You\'re going to have miscommunications. You\'re going to miss routes. You\'re not going to feel comfortable with the offense.

I can\'t see how anyone would argue that playing Bouman with the first team in preseason is a bad idea. What? You wanna play Brooks? What happens when your little baby boy gets hurt? Seriously.

Oh, one other thing. No QB in the league LOST more fumbles that Aaron Brooks Billy. Look at the stats. If you fumble the ball and get it back it\'s not a great play, but it\'s also not as harmful as a LOST fumble.

One other thing you won\'t see is a stat for turnovers that ocurred deep in your own territory or deep in your opponents\'. I\'d be willing to bet that AB put opposing teams in great situations deep in our territory (if they didn\'t score on the turnover), or took point off of our board more than any other QB in the league. There\'s a difference between fumbling on your opponents 40 yards line on 3rd and 27 with 2 seconds left in the half and fumbling on second and goal from your opponents\' 1 yard line.

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I think a coach should always look to put his team in a better position to win, and that includes not having \"guaranteed\" jobs, therefore instilling the \"I need to improve all the time\" mentality into his team; I also think that coaches should not have \"preferred\" players.
Unfortunately, Haslett does have \"his\" players, and he would go to great lengths to pander to them, regardless of what it does to the team.
We don\'t really know if Bouman could do better than Brooks out there... and we are not going to ever know as long as Haslett is the head coach, unless Brooks goes into a coma.

Do the Saints need an upgrade at the QB position? That\'s a good question. Personally, I don\'t think that the offense has great personnel all around.
I think the offense as it is, can score enough points to win 7-10 games, but not championships, mainly because:
- the running game isn\'t that good (it\'s not about \"averages\", or \"breaking the long one\").
- either the o-line can\'t block that well, or the QB holds on to the ball too long and needs extra protection (probably because he can\'t read defenses) as evidenced by the numerous 2 TE sets.
- receivers don\'t make the most-make catches.
- our starting QB is chillin\' like a felon on the sidelines instead of studying the formation shots (and maybe that\'s why he can\'t read defenses).

The questions would be:
Can Boumann do a better job at reading defenses?
Would Boumann let the ball go without holding onto it for too long?
Can Boumann lead the offense?

I do know that what the Saints need more than anything, is a MLB and a DT.

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Codename 47

You bring a very interesting thought to the table here .

It is a point that other league Qb\'s do check the formation shots , to my knowledege I have never seen Brooks review the formation sheets in a game .

Has anyone else seen Brooks do this ????

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been away awhile, busy with work and buying my first house

just glad to see this forum hasn\'t changed at all :P :P :P

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The question is does Brooks really just sit there on the sidelines or does the cameraman not show him doing the things you\'d like to see him do? My point is that if you\'re watching the game on TV surely you\'re aware that you aren\'t seeing everything that happens.

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I have not seen Brooks review the formation sets in the Super Dome or on the Big Screen .

Not saying he does or does not , checking to see if someone has seen him do it .

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Do you go to the games with your binoculars glued to Brooks or do you actually watch the game?

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I tape the games on t.v. when I go to them .

It is interesting to see a game live then watch the game on tape later and listen to the commentators .

Yes at times , and only because security seems unwilling to allow me to bring my telescope ....

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This seems like we might be on to something here. Has anyone seen AB studying on the sidelines, while we are winning or losing? I suspect even hardcore supporters of AB would admit that he has a lot to learn about reading defenses and that he SHOULD be studying it between possessions.

I agree that those watchin on TV are not seeing everything, but I cannot seem to remember ever seeing this on the news or in the Dome. Like \'08 I am not saying it does or does not happen, I just never noticed as I am usually watching the game. Has anyone?

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I\'ve seen him do it.

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I can\'t recall if I\'ve ever seen him checkin\' out a polaroid. I have seen him in discussions (heated and otherwise) with the OC and with other players as well.

The point to all this is some people want to say Brooks doesn\'t care about winning or improving. He\'s done nothing but improve. I think his numbers fairly indicate that. If you\'re not speculating whether or not Brooks looks at the polaroids in an effort to say you don\'t think he cares then what are ya speculatin\' about?

Now that I think about it, I haven\'t seen ANY of the players checkin\' out polaroids. Has anyone else?

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Can someone provide me with some evidence that Brooks can\'t read defenses? Not opinions, but real evidence.

Here\'s my evidence that Brooks CAN read defenses.

1. Threw only 8-interceptions all year against NFL defenses. It wasn\'t pee-wee or college defenses, it was NFL defenses.

2. Completed 60% of his passes against NFL defenses.


Do those 2 things not take intelligence? To me, not thowing int\'s and completing a high percentage of passes are the 2-most important things that show intelligence of a QB. What say the Brooks\' bashers?

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Well, yeah, but did we ever see him lookin over those little polaroids? If we haven\'t seen that how can we be sure he knows what he\'s doing?

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I don\'t think there is ANY way to prove or provide evidence one way or another about Brooks ability to read defenses. I would think that we\'ve seen enough \"statistical spin\" in BOTH directions (for and against AB) that stats don\'t mean a thing.

I believe there is perception and opinions based off of perception.

Many times, I saw Brooks completely blind-sided (never even saw the hit coming) by a blitz that I (watching on a television and not with a 250 lbs defender white-knuckled at the line right in front of me) could see coming. Many other times, I saw blitzes and AB not going to his hot-route despite it being open - though there is no way to prove it, I believe he didn\'t know the blitz was coming. On other occasions I watched Brooks audible to a play that went straight to the strength of the defense\'s play-call. I am certainly no pro QB, but I could see that much.

Those are my perceptions and it leads me to the opinion that he could be a LOT better at reading defenses.

As an aside, I don\'t think anyone had said they doubted AB studied on the sidelines merely that they had never seen it and were curious if anyone else had. I for one am glad that someone has seen this. I will be looking for it this year at the games.

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I used that exact argument last year BC, saying that TDs and Yards aren\'t as good indicators of performance as things that measure efficiency, like Comp %, Efficiency Rating, Yards/Attempt, etc.

You argued tooth and nail. Glad to see that you are seeing things the right way finally. ;) I do note that it took a year of improvement specifically in those areas from Brooks to get you there, but... Next year you\'ll tell us that nothing hurts a team more than turnovers! LMAO. Just kidding BC, I have to josh you about this b/c you and Saintfan argued so hard against the exact stand that you\'re taking now. ;)

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Billy C,

<Do those 2 things not take intelligence? To me, not thowing int\'s and completing a high percentage of passes are the 2-most important things that show intelligence of a QB. What say the Brooks\' bashers?>

Those two take more than intelligence. Add LUCK, OPPOSING DEFENSIVE SCHEME, SKILL, and GOOD RECEIVERS (as well as a few more I am sure). However, the true measurement is WINS/LOSSES. In this category, AB has a LONG way too go! IMHO.

Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expecting a different outcome!

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The question remains. Why doesn\'t Bouman get a chance? This is not saying AB is a DOG, but like most HUMANS he has his faults. Fumbles is but one...LEADERSHIP is yet another that I fail to see.

I watched with amazement that Horn hugged AB to settle their differences. This does not provide EVIDENCE, as some desire, of LEADERSHIP.

Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expecting a different outcome!

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Got a couple of questions:
what about play calling?
what about the WR\'s ability to get open?

On the other board I used to frequent, it was the same song: everything that is perceived as good, Brooks did all by himself. Everything that was bad, it was everything/everybody else around him.

McCarthy constantly puts 2 TE formations not because he\'s dumb, but because he knows his QB holds on to the ball too long, and needs time to look around.
And the receivers are usually fairly open; that is because McCarthy calls good pass plays and the receivers run fairly good routes.

..but don\'t take my word for it.. if you have tape, look at the pass plays and you\'d see that rarely Brooks throws into tight coverage.

And I have to add, I don\'t want to diminish anything and everything that Brooks does. The man does have physical talent, and many a times his physical talent has bailed him out of dire situations. Is he \"brilliant\"? Well, that\'s not for me to decide. Is he a good QB? I think he lacks QB skills but his physical skills make up for a lot.

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Hey 08, where\'s that quote from the scout that said he lacked intelligence and might be a good receiver? I love that one. LMAO!

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Got a better one WhoDat .

Billy I would certainly hope this helps .

The following is a write up from the Cleveland Browns game in 2002 . The following are the comments made from , not a critic or a commentator , but simply the truest form of a test , an opposing defender .

I hope you will certainly note the words - He proved it today .


\"We showed some coverages and then changed them,\" Browns free safety Earl Little said. \"Personally, I didn\'t think he could read (defenses) that well. I think that screwed him up a little bit. That\'s what gave them a problem.\"

\"What I was seeing was a guy that didn\'t know if we were blitzing, didn\'t know if we were in a zone or a straight man-to-man,\" Little said. \"Personally, with or without him (Deuce), we didn\'t think he could read coverages that well, and he proved it today.\"

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That\'s interesting codename47, but all you are doing is guessing at all of this. Hey we all do it, but I asked for REAL evidence and you provided NONE.

I could say McCarthy uses 2-tightend sets to help the offensive line out and you couldn\'t prove me wrong.

Point is we can all speculate whether or not Brooks is intelligent enough to play QB, but he puts up the STATS and POINTS on offense to get us to the playoffs and if not for some weak areas on the team we would be fine.

You know Pro-Bowl QB\'s are not selected according to how good their team plays. They are selected according to their individual play. Maybe we as Saints fan should judge Brooks like that, because he can\'t be responsible for the offense, defense, and special teams. As a matter of fact, Aaron Brooks can only be responsible for Aaron Brooks.

Now all the Brooks critics can say is:

1. Has no leadership.
2. Fumbles too much.

They say # 1 because they know it can\'t be disproven.

They say number 2, because they don\'t want to talk about how effective Brooks is at finding the open receivers and the great numbers he has put up the last couple of years.


[Edited on 27/1/2004 by BillyC]

[Edited on 27/1/2004 by BillyC]

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Don\'t forget, we\'re also saying
3. He still can\'t throw a touch pass.
4. He still can\'t read a defense.
5. He blames anyone else for his mistakes.
6. He smiles about getting beat/throwing picks
7. He backs out of his protection, won\'t step up and deliver the ball.
8. He\'s lackadasical in his approach to the game.
9. He lacks football smarts.
10. He\'s a \"me-first\" type player. \"Leon Brooks\"

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3. I see him throw touch passes that are consistently dropped by our great receivers. Ask Joe Horn about that!!
4. Then how does he throw for all those yards, TD\'s and he hardly throws any inteceptions. Please answer this question BMG and don\'t avoid it??
5. Who has he blamed?
6. Are you saying he enjoys losing? He only threw 8 picks.
7. He does do that.
8. That\'s your opinion, but he get\'s the job done never-the-less.
9. What are football smarts?
10. Got facts?


[Edited on 27/1/2004 by BillyC]