Brees being sacked more this year than any other a Saint

FinSaint · 10-13-2011, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

Statistics are:
A way to organize data. Period. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Statistics are not:
The end all by which one proves or disproves a thing. This is because, as any inking of research on your part will reveal, it isn't the data, but rather it is how you perceive the data.

Now you either get that or you don't.

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in God? Whether yes or no be your answer, prove your stance statistically.

You can't. Your argument is bunk. Here endeth the lesson.

Hmmm... I wouldn't completely agree with your arguments here.

Data/statistics are an important part of any research without which you can't expect anyone to agree with your findings, since all valid research results have to be replicable. And if you are not presenting the data you based your findings on or the method by which you gathered it in the first place - then there's no way for someone else to replicate your research, and, therefore, it has no scientific value. Also perceptions or observations are also a type of data, which have to be carefully collected and coded for further use in a scientific research.

And as for the God argument... there's really nothing scientific about one's beliefs, but on the contrary statistics are very much based on scientific ways of collecting data. But as a rebuttal, I would say quantum physics.

CantonLegend · 10-13-2011, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

I agree. Without statistical evidence we would have to base our opinion on the objective observation of the event(s) coupled with the information we have at our disposal, which could entail, for example, pre season games with Daniel as the QB - although those would hardly be comparable for various reasons.

Another way would be to come up with a dedicated data/stat collecting method that would be applicable to test this particular hypothesis, but that would be beyond difficult as we wouldn't have any control over the different variables involved.

What my point comes back to is that since we can't prove or disprove this particular point by data/stats - we are forced to rely on our observations, and in that case I would have to agree that it is far more likely that Brees is making the O-line look better than vice versa.

what i have been doing is referring to a site that does have access to those kinds of stats. a site that recognizes the degree of difficulty in grading a players performance when they dont know the players responsibility.

however, understanding that its an imperfect science that they are using on every player to the same extent, you realize that a lot of the uncontrolled variables can be taken out

you guys can throw out all the grades if you want but then you turn it into a he said/she said type argument with no facts to back up anything...just uneducated opinions and testosterone

why is it more believable that drew makes our line look better than vice-versa? because hes an excellent QB? we have an excellent line too but because they dont get recorded stats and touchdowns they cant possibly be capable of keeping drew upright?

CantonLegend · 10-13-2011, 04:28 PM

heres a question...

is nicks or jahri evans a better guard than drew is a QB?

how do you measure that? by the competion around the league at the time? how many guards rank above nicks and evans? how many QBs rank above brees?

saintfan · 10-13-2011, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

Hmmm... I wouldn't completely agree with your arguments here.

Data/statistics are an important part of any research without which you can't expect anyone to agree with your findings, since all valid research results have to be replicable. And if you are not presenting the data you based your findings on or the method by which you gathered it in the first place - then there's no way for someone else to replicate your research, and, therefore, it has no scientific value. Also perceptions or observations are also a type of data, which have to be carefully collected and coded for further use in a scientific research.

And as for the God argument... there's really nothing scientific about one's beliefs, but on the contrary statistics are very much based on scientific ways of collecting data. But as a rebuttal, I would say quantum physics.

I'm curious to know what then, about this, that you disagree with:

Statistics are:
A way to organize data. Period. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Statistics are not:
The end all by which one proves or disproves a thing. This is because, as any inking of research on your part will reveal, it isn't the data, but rather it is how you perceive the data.

As for God, you beat me to it. Quantum Physics. It pisses me off.

The point is, as you already know (and so too does Canton by the way he just can't bring himself to admit it), is that Stats don't tell the whole story - and lets remove all doubt by simply looking at his own words in post #52. Particularly in the way people throw them around when discussing something like football. Of course there is value in the numbers, but the number's don't tell the whole story. To tell the whole story in such a way you'd need IBM's Watson and that might not even be sufficient.

Now, because Canton can't prove the existence of God, he chooses to become agnostic? I'm sure he has other reasons, but he (purposefully most likely) misses the point.

I can tell you that, statistically speaking, Canton isn't a very good Coach because he's only managed a single championship in a decade.

FinSaint · 10-13-2011, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

what i have been doing is referring to a site that does have access to those kinds of stats. a site that recognizes the degree of difficulty in grading a players performance when they dont know the players responsibility.

I don't think you fully understood the point I was making, because I sincerely doubt that such a site exists. What I tried to convey was that we would have to have a method specific to this particular hypothesis, by which we would have to have a way of comparing all of the variables (players' performances) in a given setting - assigning dependent and independent variables in order to prove or disprove our original hypothesis. This would mean that we would have to be able to have the players play in various different combinations in otherwise similar circumstances, which would be very difficult to put it mildly.

CantonLegend · 10-13-2011, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

I'm curious to know what then, about this, that you disagree with:

As for God, you beat me to it. Quantum Physics. It pisses me off.

The point is, as you already know (and so too does Canton by the way he just can't bring himself to admit it), is that Stats don't tell the whole story - and lets remove all doubt by simply looking at his own words in post #52. Particularly in the way people throw them around when discussing something like football. Of course there is value in the numbers, but the number's don't tell the whole story. To tell the whole story in such a way you'd need IBM's Watson and that might not even be sufficient.

Now, because Canton can't prove the existence of God, he chooses to become agnostic? I'm sure he has other reasons, but he (purposefully most likely) misses the point.

I can tell you that, statistically speaking, Canton isn't a very good Coach because he's only managed a single championship in a decade.

im agnostic because everything ppl have told me is that god exists but everything ive found in my own life suggests otherwise. because i cant disprove god i cant say hes not real and i cant say he is real because i cant prove that either

one championship in a decade considering the 50 some odd schools that have made the playoffs over that same time is a pretty good ratio if you ask me. especially considering we are a public school

i remember an article that came out of the akron beacon journal a few years ago that mentioned that while only 4% of the schools in ohio are private schools, that 4% of private schools wins about 97% of the state championships in all sports

saintfan · 10-13-2011, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

im agnostic because everything ppl have told me is that god exists but everything ive found in my own life suggests otherwise. because i cant disprove god i cant say hes not real and i cant say he is real because i cant prove that either

one championship in a decade considering the 50 some odd schools that have made the playoffs over that same time is a pretty good ratio if you ask me. especially considering we are a public school

i remember an article that came out of the akron beacon journal a few years ago that mentioned that while only 4% of the schools in ohio are private schools, that 4% of private schools wins about 97% of the state championships in all sports

1 in a decade. You suck. But then your involvement in the decade of losing might be minimal. Prove that statistically. Otherwise we'll have to assume that YOU are the biggest loser on the staff. Unless of course you can prove otherwise. Statistically mind you...

strato · 10-13-2011, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

heres a question...

is nicks or jahri evans a better guard than drew is a QB?

how do you measure that? by the competion around the league at the time? how many guards rank above nicks and evans? how many QBs rank above brees?

Ok fair enough...let me ask you one..which one would you rather have on your team?

FinSaint · 10-13-2011, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

I'm curious to know what then, about this, that you disagree with:

For the first statement:

Statistics are:
A way to organize data. Period. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I hope you'll forgive me for quoting wikipedia, but my methodology books pretty much state the same thing and this was the fastest way:

Statistics is the study of the collection, organization, analysis, and interpretation of data. It deals with all aspects of this, including the planning of data collection in terms of the design of surveys and experiments.

Statistics is more than just a way of displaying data, it is a discipline in itself, which has numerous real world applications.

As for the second statement:

Statistics are not:
The end all by which one proves or disproves a thing. This is because, as any inking of research on your part will reveal, it isn't the data, but rather it is how you perceive the data.

I would like to refer to my earlier wikipedia quote (that just sounds wrong). If by statistics you mean just a representation of data - then you're closer to the truth, but still incorrect in a way, because it is (and has to be) in fact the data on which you have to base your findings on for reasons I already went over in an earlier post. And if you refer to the discipline of statistics, [i]"perception of the data"[i] is part of analyzing and interpreting data, which can't be separated from the gathering and presentation of the said data.

saintfan · 10-13-2011, 05:03 PM

If I break my arm, and you break your arm, statistics can be used to tell us when our arms might heal.

Yours may heal faster. Mine slower, other the other way around. The mountain of data you would need to make the claim that my arm will heal x days faster than yours boggles the mind.

Stats can give you part of the story. You can organize what data you have and you can come to some conclusions. Those conclusions are dependent on the data. How can you prove the data you have is complete? You'd also have to account somehow for assumptions.

9 out of 10 dentists say my toothpaste is better than yours. A different set of dentists are one shy of unanimous about the superiority of yours. Hmmmm....

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that stats have no value. I'm rebutting Cantons claim that I must present some statistical evidence to indicate that Drew does, in fact, improve our o-line's statistics. Of course I could poll every NFL player and to a man they would agree with me, but is that enough? A reasonable person would likely think so, but can we ever prove that, statistically? Good luck with that...

Oh, and no worries about quoting wikipedia. I do it all the time. We know that, statistically speaking of course, everything on the internet is true.

10-13-2011, 04:19 PM	#51
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,955	Originally Posted by saintfan Statistics are: A way to organize data. Period. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less. Statistics are not: The end all by which one proves or disproves a thing. This is because, as any inking of research on your part will reveal, it isn't the data, but rather it is how you perceive the data. Now you either get that or you don't. Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in God? Whether yes or no be your answer, prove your stance statistically. You can't. Your argument is bunk. Here endeth the lesson. Hmmm... I wouldn't completely agree with your arguments here. Data/statistics are an important part of any research without which you can't expect anyone to agree with your findings, since all valid research results have to be replicable. And if you are not presenting the data you based your findings on or the method by which you gathered it in the first place - then there's no way for someone else to replicate your research, and, therefore, it has no scientific value. Also perceptions or observations are also a type of data, which have to be carefully collected and coded for further use in a scientific research. And as for the God argument... there's really nothing scientific about one's beliefs, but on the contrary statistics are very much based on scientific ways of collecting data. But as a rebuttal, I would say quantum physics.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

10-13-2011, 04:23 PM	#52
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Originally Posted by FinSaint I agree. Without statistical evidence we would have to base our opinion on the objective observation of the event(s) coupled with the information we have at our disposal, which could entail, for example, pre season games with Daniel as the QB - although those would hardly be comparable for various reasons. Another way would be to come up with a dedicated data/stat collecting method that would be applicable to test this particular hypothesis, but that would be beyond difficult as we wouldn't have any control over the different variables involved. What my point comes back to is that since we can't prove or disprove this particular point by data/stats - we are forced to rely on our observations, and in that case I would have to agree that it is far more likely that Brees is making the O-line look better than vice versa. what i have been doing is referring to a site that does have access to those kinds of stats. a site that recognizes the degree of difficulty in grading a players performance when they dont know the players responsibility. however, understanding that its an imperfect science that they are using on every player to the same extent, you realize that a lot of the uncontrolled variables can be taken out you guys can throw out all the grades if you want but then you turn it into a he said/she said type argument with no facts to back up anything...just uneducated opinions and testosterone why is it more believable that drew makes our line look better than vice-versa? because hes an excellent QB? we have an excellent line too but because they dont get recorded stats and touchdowns they cant possibly be capable of keeping drew upright?
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

10-13-2011, 04:29 PM	#54
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by FinSaint Hmmm... I wouldn't completely agree with your arguments here. Data/statistics are an important part of any research without which you can't expect anyone to agree with your findings, since all valid research results have to be replicable. And if you are not presenting the data you based your findings on or the method by which you gathered it in the first place - then there's no way for someone else to replicate your research, and, therefore, it has no scientific value. Also perceptions or observations are also a type of data, which have to be carefully collected and coded for further use in a scientific research. And as for the God argument... there's really nothing scientific about one's beliefs, but on the contrary statistics are very much based on scientific ways of collecting data. But as a rebuttal, I would say quantum physics. I'm curious to know what then, about this, that you disagree with: Statistics are: A way to organize data. Period. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less. Statistics are not: The end all by which one proves or disproves a thing. This is because, as any inking of research on your part will reveal, it isn't the data, but rather it is how you perceive the data. As for God, you beat me to it. Quantum Physics. It pisses me off. The point is, as you already know (and so too does Canton by the way he just can't bring himself to admit it), is that Stats don't tell the whole story - and lets remove all doubt by simply looking at his own words in post #52. Particularly in the way people throw them around when discussing something like football. Of course there is value in the numbers, but the number's don't tell the whole story. To tell the whole story in such a way you'd need IBM's Watson and that might not even be sufficient. Now, because Canton can't prove the existence of God, he chooses to become agnostic? I'm sure he has other reasons, but he (purposefully most likely) misses the point. I can tell you that, statistically speaking, Canton isn't a very good Coach because he's only managed a single championship in a decade.
	C'mon Man... Last edited by saintfan; 10-13-2011 at 04:32 PM..

10-13-2011, 04:33 PM	#55
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,955	Originally Posted by CantonLegend what i have been doing is referring to a site that does have access to those kinds of stats. a site that recognizes the degree of difficulty in grading a players performance when they dont know the players responsibility. I don't think you fully understood the point I was making, because I sincerely doubt that such a site exists. What I tried to convey was that we would have to have a method specific to this particular hypothesis, by which we would have to have a way of comparing all of the variables (players' performances) in a given setting - assigning dependent and independent variables in order to prove or disprove our original hypothesis. This would mean that we would have to be able to have the players play in various different combinations in otherwise similar circumstances, which would be very difficult to put it mildly.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

10-13-2011, 04:42 PM	#56
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Originally Posted by saintfan I'm curious to know what then, about this, that you disagree with: As for God, you beat me to it. Quantum Physics. It pisses me off. The point is, as you already know (and so too does Canton by the way he just can't bring himself to admit it), is that Stats don't tell the whole story - and lets remove all doubt by simply looking at his own words in post #52. Particularly in the way people throw them around when discussing something like football. Of course there is value in the numbers, but the number's don't tell the whole story. To tell the whole story in such a way you'd need IBM's Watson and that might not even be sufficient. Now, because Canton can't prove the existence of God, he chooses to become agnostic? I'm sure he has other reasons, but he (purposefully most likely) misses the point. I can tell you that, statistically speaking, Canton isn't a very good Coach because he's only managed a single championship in a decade. im agnostic because everything ppl have told me is that god exists but everything ive found in my own life suggests otherwise. because i cant disprove god i cant say hes not real and i cant say he is real because i cant prove that either one championship in a decade considering the 50 some odd schools that have made the playoffs over that same time is a pretty good ratio if you ask me. especially considering we are a public school i remember an article that came out of the akron beacon journal a few years ago that mentioned that while only 4% of the schools in ohio are private schools, that 4% of private schools wins about 97% of the state championships in all sports
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

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10-13-2011, 04:28 PM	#53
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	heres a question... is nicks or jahri evans a better guard than drew is a QB? how do you measure that? by the competion around the league at the time? how many guards rank above nicks and evans? how many QBs rank above brees?

10-13-2011, 04:44 PM	#57
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by CantonLegend im agnostic because everything ppl have told me is that god exists but everything ive found in my own life suggests otherwise. because i cant disprove god i cant say hes not real and i cant say he is real because i cant prove that either one championship in a decade considering the 50 some odd schools that have made the playoffs over that same time is a pretty good ratio if you ask me. especially considering we are a public school i remember an article that came out of the akron beacon journal a few years ago that mentioned that while only 4% of the schools in ohio are private schools, that 4% of private schools wins about 97% of the state championships in all sports 1 in a decade. You suck. But then your involvement in the decade of losing might be minimal. Prove that statistically. Otherwise we'll have to assume that YOU are the biggest loser on the staff. Unless of course you can prove otherwise. Statistically mind you...

10-13-2011, 04:45 PM	#58
strato Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Little Ole Town in Tejas" Posts: 7,586	Originally Posted by CantonLegend heres a question... is nicks or jahri evans a better guard than drew is a QB? how do you measure that? by the competion around the league at the time? how many guards rank above nicks and evans? how many QBs rank above brees? Ok fair enough...let me ask you one..which one would you rather have on your team?

10-13-2011, 04:51 PM	#59
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,955	Originally Posted by saintfan I'm curious to know what then, about this, that you disagree with: For the first statement: Statistics are: A way to organize data. Period. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less. I hope you'll forgive me for quoting wikipedia, but my methodology books pretty much state the same thing and this was the fastest way: Statistics is the study of the collection, organization, analysis, and interpretation of data. It deals with all aspects of this, including the planning of data collection in terms of the design of surveys and experiments. Statistics is more than just a way of displaying data, it is a discipline in itself, which has numerous real world applications. As for the second statement: Statistics are not: The end all by which one proves or disproves a thing. This is because, as any inking of research on your part will reveal, it isn't the data, but rather it is how you perceive the data. I would like to refer to my earlier wikipedia quote (that just sounds wrong). If by statistics you mean just a representation of data - then you're closer to the truth, but still incorrect in a way, because it is (and has to be) in fact the data on which you have to base your findings on for reasons I already went over in an earlier post. And if you refer to the discipline of statistics, [i]"perception of the data"[i] is part of analyzing and interpreting data, which can't be separated from the gathering and presentation of the said data.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

10-13-2011, 05:03 PM	#60
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	If I break my arm, and you break your arm, statistics can be used to tell us when our arms might heal. Yours may heal faster. Mine slower, other the other way around. The mountain of data you would need to make the claim that my arm will heal x days faster than yours boggles the mind. Stats can give you part of the story. You can organize what data you have and you can come to some conclusions. Those conclusions are dependent on the data. How can you prove the data you have is complete? You'd also have to account somehow for assumptions. 9 out of 10 dentists say my toothpaste is better than yours. A different set of dentists are one shy of unanimous about the superiority of yours. Hmmmm.... Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that stats have no value. I'm rebutting Cantons claim that I must present some statistical evidence to indicate that Drew does, in fact, improve our o-line's statistics. Of course I could poll every NFL player and to a man they would agree with me, but is that enough? A reasonable person would likely think so, but can we ever prove that, statistically? Good luck with that... Oh, and no worries about quoting wikipedia. I do it all the time. We know that, statistically speaking of course, everything on the internet is true.
	C'mon Man...

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