Saints "Fearsome Foursome"
 

I've thought things over and listened to some of the experts like Mike Detillier, and I think that the Saints Defensive problems can be traced to the lack of a "Fearsome Foursome" on the defensive line.

If we had some guys like Merlin Olsen, Deacon Jones and the other two Fearsome Foursome guys, we'd beat everybody easily.

So, how do we improve our defensive front four ? By next season?

We've been talking about that since Friday. Defense needs to be improved.
We also have a LOT of money invested in our D-line now. When we get a new defensive coordinator we need to make some changes for sure.

Our line has been inconsistent in play for 2 years in a row, and honestly wasn't the thing that brought us to the Superbowl in 2009.

Would love to have a strong line like the 49ers have this season.

With our offense, I'd be willing to settle for about half of what San Francisco can bring with their front 4.

I love this tread. 2 young, tough, hungry, agressive, big and quick, DT's to blow up the middle. Out with the old, in with the new. Goodbye Ellis, Franklin,Smith, and Rodgers.

I know that there has been tons of discussion on improving the defense, but the discussion seems to focus on the defensive backfield.

I'm beginning to realize since Saturday that it is the Saints front four that's the key. If we could pressure the QB with only our front four, our defensive backs would look MUCH better, I'm thinking.

Exactly. I am confident our coverage unit would be much more effective with some QB pressure. When we were so opportunistic in 09 we also had more pressure from Will Smith and Bobby McCray. Even the LBers like Fujita and Vilma were more active blitzers. Our best pressure man this year was a safety.

We need a game changing DE. I think our interior DL is fine. Get rid of Rogers and bring more youth there, but the DE position needs serious upgrades. Jordan and Galette are nice depth but neither are starters to me yet.

I'd say give Jordan and Galette a full traning camp and may be just maybe we could have something.

fearsome foursome? been years? i like
Cameron Jordan on the strong side DE
Sedrick Ellis at DT

Shaun Rogers at 32 played well but he is 32
Will Smith seem to have lost a step

Now in the draft we have some nice players this year for the draft
Young NT is in need

Alameda Ta'amu NT, Washington
Dontari Poe, NT, Memphis

DT to keep an eye on
Derek Wolfe, DE/DT, Cincinnati

pass rush DE to push Smith
Cam Johnson, DE, Virginia

good depth at DE
Julian Miller, DE, West Virginia
Jake Bequette, DE, Arkansas

A JR worth watching if he comes out
Devin Taylor, DE/OLB, South Carolina

FA in 2012?
not going there till we see what happens.

Now remember with every great front 4 there were good if not excellent LB allowing them to do there thing. To me this an area of greater need

MLB is good
Jonathan Vilma
Jo-Lonn Dunbar

Martez Wilson - WLB or SLB i am torn here he can play both. with his size and speed i would think SLB with TE duties
Will Herring - SLB - solid back up

We need to upgrade one starter and improve depth.

the draft has some projects that may pay off
but thats a different topic

I was talking to a buddy today about what we're paying for Will Smith, Sedrick Ellis, & Jonathon Vilma. With that money alone, we could afford to keep just about everyone & go out & get Mario Williams & London Fletcher in FA. That's crazy!!!

I don't know if we are getting our money's worth on Defense.

gotta bit the bullet and go with draft and what we keep and maybe a midlevel FA or two

Severely restructure both Smith's and Ellis' contracts and if they're not willing to do that... let them and their huge contacts go. That alone would free up a combined cap hit of $16M for 2012.

Then use most of that to sign Haloti Ngata in FA and all problems with the front 4 will disappear with maybe the best DT in the league.

The only thing that "fears" this foursome is food.

And it needs to be a threesome, with four linebackers behind it.

Speedy, edge-rusher please

And doesnt Pat Swilling have a kid playing? Rickey should have about 12
out there somewhere, right? Where are these kids? Start making some calls now.

I didn't like our draft picks at DE. The knock on them was lack of speed.

So it should be a surprise we can get after the QB.

Also we are slow at OLB. DE and OLB need to be upgraded if we are going to have a pass rush.

There have been times this season where Tez reminded me of Swilling, its time to get some guys with speed at DE cause with a decent pass rush, the rest of the defense would improve

Wilson shows promise, Jordan will get better. Agreed our DB's are good and would be better if the front four could get pressure and we had aggressive LB's. Dunbar, Cassillas, and Wilson are workable but need a strong killer LB to lead.

If I was the Saints I would cut Will Smith and go after Osi Umenyiora I don't think the Giants want to pay him go get him.

I don't give a dam who we sign... I just want another SUPER BOWL!!!!!!! COME ON SPAGS WE GOT THE O' NOW SHOW US THE D' WHO DATT!!!!!!!

Cut Will Smith......YES. Too much money & not enough production.

Go after Osi Umenyiora......NO. His cost is too high & he's not even the best DE on his own team.

Let me begin by saying I believe in continuity. That being said, I viewed the following and wondered:

New-Orleans-Saints Salaries | New-Orleans-Saints Player Salaries | 2011 New-Orleans-Saints Salary

How much of a fall off would the D line have if Franklin, King, Johnson, Galette, Charleston, Jordan, and McBride were the front rotation?

Same ? for LB'ers; Dunbar, Humber, Casillas, Wilson, Herring, and Bussey (if all are HEALTHY)?

I don't think the front four would be a fall off at all. Quite possibly an improvement. As for the LB's, Vilma's leadership & knowledge of offensive formations would be missed but not much more than that. It would sure free up a heck of alot of money to use in free agency, that's for sure!

Yeah, we also have to remember that the "sleeper pick" Romeus will probably be ready to compete for a DE roster spot for next season.

Still, the Saints would need another DT in the rotation because 3 won't do and there's only Franklin there who plays NT while Johnson and King are both more 3-tech, furthermore, King might be little undersized in any case to be an effective pressure creator.

I think King played LB in HS, so maybe he is more versatile than we've given him credit for, and maybe the new DC can do some experimenting with his placement on the field to better take advantage of his skill-set.

In any case, both Smith and Ellis are not worth their current contracts, and if they won't agree to restructuring - the Saints might be better off without them in the roster for 2012.

Given our pitiful ability (lack of one actually) to get any real pressure I'd sign off on it. Windows of opportunity like the one we are currently enjoying are rare. We can hardly do worse with our D line and linebackers. Blow it up and let some of the new guys take a shot at it if nothing else.

Very true. I have high hopes for this guy.

I did a quick add of 2011 salary cap for Smith, Ellis, and Vilma and came up with approximately $20.7mm.

I agree with you on Vilma, and I'm hesitant to believe that his knee problems will be over now. Once the knees are gone, so is the sideline-to-sideline pursuit, which is a key for a MLB. Just look at Lofa Tatupu, who was an all-pro MLB with great speed on the field, but after his knees gave out the Seahawks couldn't get rid of him fast enough.

I would like for the Saints to maybe look at Curtis Lofton as a FA replacement for Vilma as the MLB, because as much as I like Dunbar - there's no guarantees he'll be back and Lofton would probably be better than him anyway.

Lofton had a conbined 147 tackles for the Failclowns last season with 1 sack, 7 patted passes, and 2 INTs one of which he returned for a TD.

Always like Lofton. I was disappointed when the Falcons drafted him.

You had me up to the last 2 lines. Smith, Ellis and I will add Vilma need to go, not restucture, maybe in a trade for other players or draft picks and if no teams bite so be it cut their sorry butts, that free's up cap space{alot}. I'm really pi$$'ed at those 3 anyway 1 for being overhyped and 2 same reason.We should be able to get a couple of quality players,{ SOMETHING THOSE 3 WAS IN THEIR DREAMS} either way.

To be honest, I think Vilma was worth his contract in 2008, 2009, and somewhat in 2010. It was only late last and the whole of this season that he fell off what is expected of him, and probably that decline has everything to do with his knees, which is why I doubt we'll see a great improvement next season if he's still with the Saints. But to say that "he was a quality player only in his dreams" is not at all correct in my opinion. And the 2005 season with the Jets - if I remember correctly - was lights out from him and probably his best season as a NFL player.

Smith, on the other hand, had two really good seasons tackling-wise in 2007 & 2008, and then an all around good year in 2009 when he racked up additionally 13 sacks. But the last two seasons have seen his stats decline in all aspects - still we have to remember that he was hurt in 2010 and missed the start of this season with the star caps debacle - it's hard to pinpoint why the decline has taken place, but it might just be because of the general schemes and also somewhat due to the other players on that defensive front. Still, I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he had his salary severely reduced to less than half. Again, Smith has been a quality player for the Saints and could still be that with a lower price tag to match his productivity.

Now, with Ellis I think your statement has some validity to it. During his first 4 seasons he has just never risen to meet those 1st round draft pick expectations, but one could argue that maybe those expectations were never realistic in the first place. Nevertheless, he is making 1st round money without the production to go along with it, and that is why he is expendable. His relatively small demeanor for a DT is probably one of the reasons why he hasn't found the success in the NFL which he had at the college level, and why he never gets his hands up to brake up the pass. Also, I was very disappointed with the lack of speed he showed this season as opposed to f.e. the 2010 season. If you don't have the size to push the O-Linemen backwards or have the speed to be an effective 3-tech... what are you good for?

The reason why I would not like to see both Vilma and Smith leave the Saints is that those are two of the guys who have worn the C on the defense, and I'm afraid that getting rid of both of them might have a bad affect on the rest of the guys on the defense. I know it is a business with business decisions, but if the other guys really look up to two guys in the locker-room and on the field - it would have to be a hard pill to swallow seeing both of them being kicked to the curve by the management.

Just get three real big two gap mothers and some really athletic linebackers and go to the three-four which will give more overall defensive speed...

The only decent four-three we ever had was the one we had with LaRoi Glover, Joe Johnson, Norman Hand, & Darren Howard with Mark Fields and Keith Mitchell as the OLB and a real threat at SS in Sammy Knight...

I do agree with some of your statement, but I disagree with some also, not to sound disrespectful but as far as Vilma goes this is no where near 2005 and he has to me had 1 1/2 good years here and to be the captain of the D and his lack of production after that last year and all of this year tells alot about the player, if our lb.'s are being measured by his skill set they should have been set in 2005 not now. Ellis, my expectations of him was high, but to me he is average at best, Smith, I don't really know where he lost his edge but it's gone. A new DC will bring in players that fit his style of play and unless Vilma, Ellis or Smith has played his profile of football they can be replaced by anyone that can produce better results, so the title of captain means nothing. Each of them have had a few good years and I feel that they are living on past performances and reputation which goes only so far unless they continue to back it up in which they are not doing, to me it's what have you done for me lately, not what you use to do that just don't get it done if you want to win. Perfect example Gregg Williams. And to be honest none of them will be in the hall of fame.

My main argument in the last reply was that as far as both Vilma and Smith go - they've been quality players during their careers, which was something you claimed they've only been in their dreams. Now, I know you probably didn't mean it literally, but I would still want to make the distinction that they've been quality and they still could be going forward.

Furthermore, being a quality player doesn't necessarily mean that a player is in the Top 5 of his position in the league - at least in my opinion. I think it is more about filling your role in the roster to the best of one's abilities and giving the right return to the management in terms of salary vs production.

In that sense I think Smith could still be a quality player for the Saints, but his salary would need to be reduced significantly in order to match the production of the past two seasons. To be honest we might see an improvement in his production come next season, new DC, and new schemes which might suit his skill-set much better. Therefore, I think the new contract should have a low base salary with a number of performance based clauses which could reward him for an increased productivity if that were the case. Kind of like "a carrot and a stick" approach to his new contract.

Also, if the Saints were to sign Spags as their new DC and have as a goal of recreating some of that front 4 pass rush the Giants have had since 2007 - having a lot of pass rushers would be a key for the rotation that would be necessary in order to establish it. That is where Smith's worth to the team might elevate him back to that quality status... granted his contract would still need to be restructured.

Vilma is a hard one to evaluate in terms of what he can bring to the field going forward, and it all depends on what the status is with his knees? The team physios know it the best and I'm sure SP & ML will make the correct assessments regarding his future, so it is hard to say whether or not he could still be a quality player for the Saints. Furthermore, I think it also tells a lot about a player that he was willing to play with an injury (that needed surgeries to repair) in order to help his team to have a better chance at winning... just saying you can take that and twist it any way you prefer.

I'm not even going to defend Ellis because I think his time is up.

But leadership inside a team is one of those intangibles that is very hard for us fans to evaluate looking from outside in, and that is why I would be hesitant to call for both Vilma's and Smith's heads. If the contract negotiations with Brees hang on without a clear solution before training camps - which I don't think will happen - it would be very important to have leaders who could bring the team together at those challenging times. I don't know, it's all guesswork, but I was just voicing my concerns.

You make a very respectable case for Smith which I can see because I can't pinpoint where he has somehow lost his way, but at the same time he has not produced the last 2 years to justify the means, he in my opion would make an excellent back-up and who knows possibly could get his act back together, now Vilma thats another story, I've watched his play in particular this year because of the first game of the season at Green Bay, I watched him check out of 2 plays that were totally wrong calls and it got my attention, this has been an issue all season with him, his tackling has been pi$$ poor, just not getting the job done, when Dunbar took over we were much better and really proved what I've said on other threads, Dunbar should start. Vilma's done if he plays here next year we will be no better at the lb. position than we are now in the middle, it's time to get better. And Smith either takes a major haircut as in back-up money or hit the streets. I hope your right about him, I'll be watching!!!!! I fully expect Romeus to start next year also.

I do agree with what your're saying about Vilma and out of the three players that we've been discussing I do see Smith as the one who might have the most to give to the Saints. But, in order for this to potentially work, his base salary should be somewhere around $3M (what Alex Brown was getting) not the $7M it would be with the current contract, and definitely not the $9M or the $10.4M base salaries he would be getting in 2013 and 2014 respectively.

And as far as the mental lapses with Vilma go - it would be hard to determine what would have caused those. Was it the lingering injury and the constant pain he must have felt that somehow clouded his judgment? Or was it that his partnership with GW was no longer as fluid as it had been in '09 and '10 - giving him certain guidelines which to follow with his on field audibles? Or was it just that he has lost some mental edge he used to have?

Hard to say, but I trust that SP, ML and the rest of the FO will make the correct decisions about his future with the Saints based on the information only they have at their disposal.

I truly felt he was tired and didn't want to tackle anyone, I swear!!!

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...uHearMeNow.jpg

But that wouldn't explain him calling the wrong audibles against certain offenses as you suggested earlier, since I would think that he would have to make a tackle if the situation required it regardless of what the defensive formation was.

Only if what he called was a different play, to transition the D into thinking it was something else, he calls the plays, if he calls run, they play run, if he calls pass the D plays pass, lots of different sets in a D. And he did not engage.