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xan 01-27-2012 12:55 PM

He's officially Bad
 
Quote:

Scramble for the Ball: 2011 All-KCW Team

by Tom Gower and Mike Kurtz
I Wonder What Color the Carpet Is ...

Tom It is time for one of Scramble's annual traditions: the All-Keep Chopping Wood team. In addition to the weekly award named after Jack Del Rio's locker room experiment gone awry (thanks to punter Chris Hanson), Scramble for the Ball annualy picks a full starting lineup of players who did the most to help their team lose games in the year. Players are selected based on a combination of their on-field and off-the-field contributions to not winning games, with the ideal selection being a terrible player who is also a locker room cancer and gets other players in trouble.
Mike: Thank you, Tom, for telling us what we already know. Another important thing that your Scramble writers look for when choosing the AKCWT (that's A.K.C.W.T. for Tanier) is a level of consistent awfulness that undermines the competitiveness of the team, yet, for one reason or another, is tolerated. We try hard to fill out the roster with full-year starters, because it's very hard to chop wood while riding the pine. This also explains why the team is not merely all the recipients of this year's weekly awards. That, and the team would only have 18 players. And about half of them would be Blaine Gabbert. For the impatient or those who would like a quick reference, the roster can be found below.

Linebackers
Mike: I was going to go with Akin Ayodele, but we've already picked on Buffalo's defense.
Tom: Let's leave him in the bag and see if we can fill a team without him.
Mike: Of course, it's probably difficult to not fill the entire roster with Bills linebackers, so we should probably leave well enough alone.
Tom: There are some good non-Bills options. Casey Matthews was ridiculously overmatched for the Eagles, and I think he is a great choice.
Mike: I agree. May I suggest Scott Shanle?
Tom: Scott Shanle is a fine choice at outside linebacker.
Mike: Bad against the pass, bad against the run, and has not even rushed the passer for Gregg Williams.
Tom: What are you talking about? He had his first sack since 2008 this year.
Mike: Wow, a whole sack! I mean, you have to be really bad to look bad in the Saints defense, but he managed it.
Tom: I didn't think the Saints' other linebackers were anything to write home about either, but we'll just stick with Shanle. If we're running a 3-4, we could use another inside linebacker next to Matthews, and I suggest Keith Brooking.
Mike: Seriously?
Tom: Brooking is now in the Thomas Jones territory where his veteran savvy can no longer compensate for his declining physical ability. He's OK as a run-stuffer, but is almost hilariously bad when he ends up in pass coverage and did not have a sack to show that his pass-rush ability makes up for it.
Mike: Wow, I had no idea. Good call.
Tom: We need another outside linebacker. We could stay in the NFC South and choose either one of the Panthers' injury replacements or a member of the Bucs. I suggest either Omar Gaither from the Panthers or Quincy Black from the Bucs.
Mike: I don't think Gaither is really all that awful, so let's go with Black. I wish I could come up with a better candidate, but I can't.
Tom: I ended up seeing a little bit of the Bucs this year and think Quincy Black is a fine choice.
For more, click on:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Scramble for the Ball: 2011 All-KCW Team

I wonder what' the Saints' staff has been thinking for the last couple of years? Can it be possible that fielding Shanle is better than fielding NOBODY? Based on their analysis, 10 men are the same as 11!

Yikes.

SapperSaint 01-27-2012 01:00 PM

Thank the Lord... I thought I was going crazy thinking he was bad.

Danno 01-27-2012 01:13 PM

I may have been wrong about Shanle. I thought he was merely mediocre to slightly below average. He may be worse than I thought, which means the rest of our OLB's reallly really suck.

Halo 01-27-2012 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xan (Post 374012)
For more, click on:

I wonder what' the Saints' staff has been thinking for the last couple of years? Can it be possible that fielding Shanle is better than fielding NOBODY? Based on their analysis, 10 men are the same as 11!

Yikes.

I'm curious as to how much we pay the guy? He may be cheap filler for a position we haven't restaffed.

Rugby Saint II 01-27-2012 03:24 PM

He's just helping us stay under the radar.....:wink:

LivnaLieTimay 01-27-2012 04:30 PM

"Bad against the pass, bad against the run"... Sums up Shanle perfectly.

FinSaint 01-27-2012 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halo (Post 374024)
I'm curious as to how much we pay the guy? He may be cheap filler for a position we haven't restaffed.


Spotrac has Shanle making a base salary of $1.05M + half of his $1M signing bonus as in $500K + $500K roster bonus & $200K workout bonus, so Shanle will be making $2.25M for next season.

As for the other LBs Rotoworld has Casillas making $480K in 2012; Herring signed a deal averaging $2M for each of the 3 seasons he signed for, but he has some escalators worth additional $1.5M; Wilson is making whatever a 3rd round #72 overall pick makes; Bussey is making whatever a #243 overall pick makes; and Vilma will be making $6.6M ($5.4M base + $1.2M signing bonus).

Humber and Dunbar are UFA.

So, basically Shanle and Herring are making pretty much the same money upwards of $2M for next season, but other than Vilma's big contract, the Saints have very little money tight down on the LB corps, which probably explains why they've been so bad.

Halo 01-27-2012 05:36 PM


CharityMike 01-27-2012 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 374015)
I may have been wrong about Shanle. I thought he was merely mediocre to slightly below average. He may be worse than I thought, which means the rest of our OLB's reallly really suck.

Really?? You just realizing this? Lmfao... I guess it takes more than stats to convince you huh?

Where are the Shanle lovers at?

Danno 01-27-2012 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharityMike (Post 374057)
Really?? You just realizing this? Lmfao... I guess it takes more than stats to convince you huh?

Where are the Shanle lovers at?

I certainly don't think he's as bad as some say.

He was voted defensive MVP by his teammates last year. I guess the Shanle lovers are currently on the 53 man roster.

saintsfan1976 01-27-2012 08:18 PM

He's a salary cap starter.

Speedy Ron 01-27-2012 10:26 PM

say what you want buddy...with Vilma making 6 + milli i wouldnt be surprised if Dunbar is your starter next year. Vilma had a really bad year. I would like to see his stat comparison from previous years. I think he lost a step and could be falling off.

QBREES9 01-27-2012 11:13 PM

Bad against the pass, bad against the run, and has not even rushed the passer for Gregg Williams.

Dam the truth hurts.

Boutte 01-28-2012 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 374085)
I certainly don't think he's as bad as some say.

He was voted defensive MVP by his teammates last year. I guess the Shanle lovers are currently on the 53 man roster.

Actually I think that was 2008.

FinSaint 01-28-2012 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Ron (Post 374119)
say what you want buddy...with Vilma making 6 + milli i wouldnt be surprised if Dunbar is your starter next year. Vilma had a really bad year. I would like to see his stat comparison from previous years. I think he lost a step and could be falling off.


Go see them here:

Jonathan Vilma, MLB for the New Orleans Saints at NFL.com

2008 and 2009 were really good years for him - his production dropped off a little last year, but as we can remember he was banged up also at the end 2010 season - then this season his production was way down and he only played in 11 games.

Unfortunately, those stats don't reveal anything about the quality of his decision making as the signal caller for the defensive unit, which is something some people here on these boards have brought into question.

Even with the injuries, I still believe he is a quality player with an above average intelligence on and off the field. If he was given better OLBs than Herring and Shanle he would undoubtedly play better, and the Saints' front 4 have to take some of the blame for the bad LB play.

Vilma has a big contract, but he will be hard to move with his recent troubles with his health. If Spags thinks he can work with him, I think he can have a real comeback year next season - provided he has some better supporting cast around him and better overall defensive schemes inside of which to work in.

Will Smith's and Sedrick Ellis' big contracts are the ones that worry me more than Vilma's.

CharityMike 01-28-2012 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boutte (Post 374147)
Actually I think that was 2008.

I think it was. This was a banner year for Scott. He had his second highest tackles of his career with 87. He also had 2 sacks and a FF. MVP MVP MVP!!!

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/o...al/garbage.jpg

papz 01-28-2012 09:18 AM

Certainly not a Shanle lover, but definitely a Shanle supporter... especially when he's on the field.

I think we all can and have agreed he's not a starting LB for our team... better suited as a 4th/5th LB. With that said, as much as people value Fujita's leadership skills and football IQ, Shanle brings the same to the table imo. I find that as a fan base we like to make Shanle our scapegoat... it's not his fault no one can beat him out for a job.

dizzle88 01-28-2012 09:25 AM

Put shanle on special teams and have Vilma/dunbar in the middle, whoever plays the best in camp
Martez on one side, maybe casillas on the other depending on if he can stay healthy.
I'd draft a young LB to take casillas spot, him constantly getting injured is what keeps letting shanle back in the starting lineup

FinSaint 01-28-2012 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 374177)
Put shanle on special teams and have Vilma/dunbar in the middle, whoever plays the best in camp
Martez on one side, maybe casillas on the other depending on if he can stay healthy.
I'd draft a young LB to take casillas spot, him constantly getting injured is what keeps letting shanle back in the starting lineup


Not sure if the Saints are even going to bring Dunbar back. Because the Saints' will still play predominantly from the base 4-3, so having two strict MLBs won't cut it, and Dunbar wasn't nearly as effective when he wasn't playing from the center.

And Dunbar would probably want at least Shanle/Herring money, so maybe they'll create more depth with some young LB from some other team's PS or from the draft.

I guess the whole LB corps situation is determined by what decisions they make regarding Vilma and his future with the Saints, because that'll determine who they have to get and how much they can spend getting them.

AlaskaSaints 01-28-2012 11:49 AM

What I know is; we won't know until we KNOW! LOL

Alaska

TheOak 01-28-2012 03:24 PM

SpagNOLA will decide.

Vilma may be like great pizza dough.... Make it cover too much area and it will have problems.... Lets put talent around Vilma since he seems to be the most intelligent option.

halloween 65 01-31-2012 09:53 AM

Vilma needs to go, to light to play the middle in a 4/3 scheme. Way overrated if you ask me and over paid also. Spags D will be new to him just like every Saints player thats here now, don't be to surprised if Vilma is gone this year, I'll be surprised if he stays. We need a thumper in the middle, with some weight and speed. I see Wilson starting in the middle this year.

Euphoria 01-31-2012 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halloween 65 (Post 374810)
Vilma needs to go, to light to play the middle in a 4/3 scheme. Way overrated if you ask me and over paid also. Spags D will be new to him just like every Saints player thats here now, don't be to surprised if Vilma is gone this year, I'll be surprised if he stays. We need a thumper in the middle, with some weight and speed. I see Wilson starting in the middle this year.

Dude what are you smoking... because I sure want not part of that.

halloween 65 01-31-2012 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphoria (Post 374821)
Dude what are you smoking... because I sure want not part of that.

Look at his stats and field play for the last 2 dreadful years, and I only smoke the best!! How about you!!!

FinSaint 01-31-2012 12:15 PM

I don't think 2010 was that bad for Vilma and we have to remember that he was playing injured for the latter part of that season, and he played injured all through this season.

Assuming he has healed from those past injuries and that he stays injury free this next coming season - working within much better defensive schemes and with an improved LB corps as a whole - he might have a couple of really good seasons left in him.

Based on the 2009 season, he isn't being over-payed, but based on the last two he is, so who knows what they'll do with his contract, but I'm pretty sure he'll be back next season playing in the black and gold.

Danno 01-31-2012 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halloween 65 (Post 374825)
Look at his stats and field play for the last 2 dreadful years, and I only smoke the best!! How about you!!!

Agreed. His play has dropped off significantly the last two years because of his knees.

If he can get back to 100%, he's obviously a keeper. But can he?

His game is speed and quickness. Both have dropped off. Are his knees shot?

FinSaint 01-31-2012 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 374853)
Agreed. His play has dropped off significantly the last two years because of his knees.

If he can get back to 100%, he's obviously a keeper. But can he?

His game is speed and quickness. Both have dropped off. Are his knees shot?


Yes exactly, only the physios and trainers of the Saints know what his situation is, and I'm confident that the organization will make a decision based on that information, which will be both the right one for the organization and for the player going forward.

If his knees are in a similar state to what f.e. Lofa Tatupu's were - it's hard to see Vilma himself wanting to play anymore and risk being forced to live out the rest of his life with decreased mobility because if it.


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