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Keyou is Hungry

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I think Haslett\'s players don\'t play for him for some reason or another. Ok, I don\'t agree. Which players \"Don\'t Play For Him\"? The whole \"Mickey Mouse\" organization comment has come up quite a bit. Ok. By Whom...other than Kyle ...

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Old 04-08-2004, 12:28 PM   #11
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Keyou is Hungry

I think Haslett\'s players don\'t play for him for some reason or another.
Ok, I don\'t agree. Which players \"Don\'t Play For Him\"?

The whole \"Mickey Mouse\" organization comment has come up quite a bit.
Ok. By Whom...other than Kyle (I\'m a complete jerk) Turley? Maybe you can be more specific about \"quite a bit\".

opposing players doubt the staff prepares team well for games.
Ok...which player(s)? How Many? What did this player (or these players) say exactly? Because someone (or perhaps more than one -- still not sure) may have made such a comment are we to assume it\'s accurate? Players say lots of things.

Can you refute any of these issues just mentioned? I not trying to sell you my veiw here. Just curious why you constantly seem to oppose it while acknowledging your not a big Haslett fan.
It\'s not really about refuting anything Gator, it\'s about weighing the relative importance of things with respect to Jim\'s ability to coach football. I think, as I have said before, that because he\'s the coach the buck must stop with Haz, so perhaps we agree there; however, I think folks are attempting to make him the skapegoat for things that, in my opinion, aren\'t necessarilly in his control because they want him fired for various reasons.

At this time you think (a) there is no talent on the Saints Roster (and you blame Haz for this) and (b) even if there was talent on the Roster Haz couldn\'t coach it. I happen to disagree on both counts.








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Old 04-08-2004, 04:07 PM   #12
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Keyou is Hungry

I disagree on the former as well, but not the latter.

Let\'s assume you\'re right Saintfan. Let\'s assume this team is talented and Jim can coach. Why the .500 seasons for the last 3 years? Why no playoffs? Why performance below expectations? Special circumstances... every year for three straight years? When does special circumstances no longer become a valid argument and results are demanded or else? This season? Next? In three? Five?

Bottom line - at some point, all that othre crap stops mattering. You see a coach that has gotten everything he wanted who still doesn\'t have a team capable of, or performing at, the level that is expected. He has to go.

IMO, he\'s got this season, and he should feel lucky to have it. He damn well better make the best of it or he\'s done in NO and probably not going to be a head coach anywhere again any time soon.

[Edited on 8/4/2004 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


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he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 04-08-2004, 04:22 PM   #13
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Keyou is Hungry

I agree with WhoDat
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Old 04-09-2004, 08:29 AM   #14
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Gatorman, the more you try and explian why you hate Haz, the less factual you become. I could type here forever providing examples of good coaches that compare favoribly to Jim Haslett but what good will it do? You\'ve convinced yourself. This is fine.

However:

Don\'t insinuate this or that or the other and then get pissy when someone (me) calls you on it ok? I\'ve read where Kyle Turley (obviously upset for a variety of reasons) called the Saints a \"mickey mouse organization\" and THAT\'S IT. YOU stated the whole mickey mouse organization stuff \"Has come up quite a bit\" did you not? Define \"quite a bit\" for me before you ask me to prove otherwise...k?

You find every player thats said the org wasn\'t mickey mouse or spoke so highly of the org. Good luck, take your time, buy some coffee and devote a weekend to doing this research.
So I have to search for players that have said the Saints aren\'t a Mickey Mouse organization because you and Kyle Turley think it is? umm, yeah, right, o-tay :casstet:

Bad luck isn\'t an excuse -- we agree there -- but it\'s a factor. If you don\'t think so then I\'m not sure what to tell you. No since in my trying to convince you. I know better.

Who\'s making Haslett a skapegoat? Well, you\'d be one. And by the way circumstantial evidence is just that...circumstantial. And why is it you always put a legal tilt on your argument. Are you studying to become a laywer?

Dude, you can disagree all you want. That\'s your right (legally speaking of course). We happen to be on different sides of the fence.

You know I played a little ball once upon a time
Cool, so did I.
Its like you won\'t make any Inferences about AB or Jim Haslett\'s abilities.
Not at all, I just don\'t think the team loses games solely because of AB. I never will in spite of what you, Whodat, and 08 try to sell me. This is a team sport, and since you\'ve \"played a little ball\" you\'re fully aware of that. My stance on Haz is similar. I recognize that there IS talent on this team...YOUNG talent. Further, it takes more than talent and a good coach...it takes luck too. You may disagree. But (legally speaking of course) that\'s ok.

If I doubt either, you always ask for direct evidence
Call me a defense attourney ok? I read all this speculation. I see ya\'ll making wild statements concerning the inner workings of the team as if some of you people are actually employed by the Saints and spend time in the locker room beside the players and coaches...if you know so much then PROVE IT TO ME. Otherwise don\'t be upset if I (or anyone else for that matter) ask you to show some evidence...evidence that isn\'t a theory...\"direct evidence\".

Finally, in the spirit of a good debate, I\'m not bein\' hostile to ya Gatorman. We disagree...and heaven knows that\'s nothing new. I hope and pray you\'re wrong because I like Haz. I think he\'s a good coach and I think the Saints are a good team moving up.

Hey we can whistle new tunes together right?
Indeed we can. But we ain\'t holdin\' hands, and that\'s final! :P

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Old 04-09-2004, 10:35 AM   #15
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Gatorman, the more you try and explian why you hate Haz, the less factual you become. I could type here forever providing examples of good coaches that compare favoribly to Jim Haslett but what good will it do? You\'ve convinced yourself. This is fine.
And I could compare him to just as many coaches who have failed in the NFL. Saying he compares favorably to other good coaches is like saying that Ryan Leaf compared favorably to Peyton Manning. How does he compare favorably Saintfan? Certainly not wins and losses, so how else? He\'s SUPPOSED to be tough. He\'s SUPPOSED to be a players coach. He\'s SUPPOSED to be this, that, and the other, but you don\'t play for him. How do you know? Sounds just as \'circumstantial\' as anything Gator is saying.


As to the Mickey Mouse argument, it\'s basically not worth arguing with you. Any player who speaks out against the Saints gets shipped off and you contribute their words to the \'disgrunted player\' tag. Kyle Turley spoke out WHILE he was a Saint. Joe Horn spoke out about the organization WHILE on the team. Roaf, Rickey Williams, Glover, Johnson... all spoke out against the organization. They might not have explicitly called the organization \'Mickey Mouse\', but they certainly alluded to bigger problems. That combined with some questionable offseason moves, underperforming teams, locker room cancers, late or early season collapses, the inability to perform consistently, etc, etc, etc... and it is reasonable for a person to say there\'s trouble in River City. But if you disagree, show me where one player OTHER than Aaron Brooks had favorable comments about the coaches and organization after being with the team in season. What players say when they sign doesn\'t count, b/c they have no experience with the team at that point.


I\'m just trying to understand your argument Saintfan. Is it that Haslett has a young team (by his own making), of talented players with lots of POTENTIAL, and he\'s just had bad luck? All of these guys are going to come around and the Saints are going to be great for years to come? That\'s a really nice thought, but show me a comparison of players who have developed under haslett vs those who have not. Then tell me all of these maybes will work out. And AGAIN, how long before you demand results?

What if the Saints go 7-9 this season Saintfan? Would you fire Haslett then?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 04-09-2004, 10:42 AM   #16
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Keyou is Hungry

T-rex had some really good things to say about the Saints and Haz.

If the Saints go 7-9???? IF IF IF...
What if we lose Deuce, Aaron, and Howard in the 1st game?
Then lose Grant, Bentley and Gandy in game 2?
The lose Thomas, Horn, Stallworth and Jones in Game 3?
And the Saints finish 7-9?
Yea, I\'d say he should be kept.

If we stay healthy (relative to the NFL average) then no, 7-9 won\'t cut it.

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Old 04-09-2004, 11:06 AM   #17
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Keyou is Hungry

And IF they all get hurt again next year? And the year after? And the year after that?

Maybe Saintfan is right. Haslett is just like Ike in Tombstone. He\'s just unlucky.

Well maybe football isn\'t his game. I know, why don\'t we try a spelling bee?



Fine, Haslett is a great coach with terrible luck. Either way the team is suffering as a result of his ineptitude or bad luck. Bottom line is no playoffs. Let\'s go find another coach with a four-leaf clover behind his ear and a rabbit foot up his a$$. Then poor Jim Haslett\'s bad luck couldn\'t hurt us anymore.

[Edited on 9/4/2004 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
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Old 04-09-2004, 12:31 PM   #18
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Saying he compares favorably to other good coaches is like saying that Ryan Leaf compared favorably to Peyton Manning.
Ummm, No, Whodat, it\'s not even close...but nice try.

As to the Mickey Mouse argument, it\'s basically not worth arguing with you. Any player who speaks out against the Saints gets shipped off and you contribute their words to the \'disgrunted player\' tag...What players say when they sign doesn\'t count, b/c they have no experience with the team at that point.
How many of the players who left here had a particular problem with Jim Haslett Whodat? How many can you add up and be able to back it up? Turley? OK, that\'s one, but then he was pretty much pissed over money truth be known wouldn\'t you agree? His antics were of his own making. Haz didn\'t like \'em. Did you? If what players say when they sign doesn\'t count, how come what they say when they\'re asked to leave cause of attitude or the team\'s going in a different direction does according to you (and Gator)?

show me a comparison of players who have developed under haslett vs those who have not.
Which players haven\'t developed? How much time have these particular palyers had to develope, and how does that relate to other players at the same position who\'ve been in the league for the same amount of time?

He\'s SUPPOSED to be tough. He\'s SUPPOSED to be a players coach. He\'s SUPPOSED to be this, that, and the other, but you don\'t play for him. How do you know? Sounds just as \'circumstantial\' as anything Gator is saying.
If you have to put words in my mouth to facilitate your argument, what does that tell you about your argument Whodat...or am I typing to Gatorman here? WHAT have I said or attempted to say that was based on circumstantial evidence? I\'ve said I think Haz is a good coach, and I haven\'t mis-qouted anyone nor have I dreamed up false reasons to believe that. It\'s just my opinion. There\'s a big difference in that being my opinion and me trying to bend and twist the evidence to sway yours.

I\'m just trying to understand your argument Saintfan
Can you hear me now? Good.



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Old 04-09-2004, 02:53 PM   #19
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I\'ve said I think Haz is a good coach, and I haven\'t mis-qouted anyone nor have I dreamed up false reasons to believe that.
No, but you haven\'t provided ANY grounds on which you base that statement. You have an interesting way of arguing Saintfan. You do nothing but ask questions of your opponent and then attack those answers. Never do you answer direct questions though. Rarely do you provide support to your argument.


As usual, I will answer your questions b/c I can. Maybe this time you\'ll answer some of mine.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saying he compares favorably to other good coaches is like saying that Ryan Leaf compared favorably to Peyton Manning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ummm, No, Whodat, it\'s not even close...but nice try.
Actually, it\'s just like that. What you have to judge Jim Haslet by is what he has on paper. You cannot compare him to the great coaches based on win/loss (READ RESULTS) b/c they\'re not as good. So you have a guy who SHOULD be leading this team to success but who isn\'t. Sounds a lot like Ryan Leaf to me.


If what players say when they sign doesn\'t count, how come what they say when they\'re asked to leave cause of attitude or the team\'s going in a different direction does according to you (and Gator)?
Well Saintfan, the answer is really quite simple. I\'m sure you\'d know it if you stopped to think about it. When a player signs he hasn\'t experienced the organization at all. When he leaves he does so with first-hand knowledge of the inner workings of the team. Show me ANY player EVER who has said something bad about a team he just signed with. That\'s ridiculous. You\'re stretching Saintfan - I expect a better defense of your position than that.


Which players haven\'t developed?
How about Allen, Hodge, Grant, and Ruff. Those are ONLY our LINEBACKERS acquired in the last FEW years. Want more?


If you have to put words in my mouth to facilitate your argument, what does that tell you about your argument Whodat...or am I typing to Gatorman here?
What words did I put in your mouth? Where in my post did I put words in your mouth? Show me. I\'d like a quote please.


Now, are you ready to answer any of my questions? Can you? I won\'t bother retyping them, they\'re all in the posts above. You know what they are, you expertly skirt them with each new post. Go ahead, take a shot at one or two of them. You can do it.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 04-09-2004, 04:01 PM   #20
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No, but you haven\'t provided ANY grounds on which you base that statement. You have an interesting way of arguing Saintfan. You do nothing but ask questions of your opponent and then attack those answers. Never do you answer direct questions though. Rarely do you provide support to your argument.
My grounds Whodat, are my opinions. That is all. I don\'t try and support my opinion via the myths you and Gatorman and Saintz08 attempt to verify your OPINIONS with. Again, there is a LARGE difference. It\'s not your opinions whodat, its that you attempt to force-feed the rest of us with nonesense in an attempt to vaildate them.

I\'m sure you\'d know it if you stopped to think about it. When a player signs he hasn\'t experienced the organization at all. When he leaves he does so with first-hand knowledge of the inner workings of the team.
Ok, point taken. Now tell me who all these disgruntled players are. Other than Kyle Turley who\'s doing the talking beside you and Gatorman? Understand yet? Gator tosses up the Mickey Mouse statement by Turley and insinuates it\'s being said over and over again by people and acts as if I must have missed it. Who are they Whodat, and you and 08 don\'t count.

How about Allen, Hodge, Grant, and Ruff. Those are ONLY our LINEBACKERS acquired in the last FEW years. Want more?
Which players are you comparing these guys to? Who\'s their coach and how is their coach making them better players. Any other players on the Saints roster you care to bring up where you might be able to make a FAIR comparison? Get it yet?

He\'s SUPPOSED to be tough. He\'s SUPPOSED to be a players coach. He\'s SUPPOSED to be this, that, and the other, but you don\'t play for him. How do you know?
When you say \"tough\" and \"a players coach\" and then ask me how I know you are inferring that I said those things. I didn\'t. How does it feel to be busted.




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