Keyou is Hungry
 

In just sitting back and reading all of the debates on this thread...I would have to say that Saintfan, Danno and Boogro all made solid points and made the most sense to me. I havent made a post on this thread since the whole Pearl Jam thing started.

Skoal is delicious. There is my post.

Keyou is Hungry
 

http://www.flamehq.com/albums/wpw-8d/threadwontdie.jpg

Keyou is Hungry
 

Ummm...What \"Proof\" has Whodat provided? While he has done more in his effort to prove your point than you have, I still don\'t see any \"Proof\".

No, sir, I don\'t want/need names, dates, SS#\'s, Birth Cets, Depositions, or declarations from Benson (now you\'re just being silly). I just wanna see some proof to your statements -- that would be enough -- ANY proof. The standard is a quote from someone other than Kyle Turley indicating the Saints are a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. So far you have Turley and Roaf...and honestly Roaf never indicated anything similar to the Saints being a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. He and Haz had personal issues, but then I suspect Roaf, at the time, had more personal problems than Mike Tyson, so really all you have so far is Turley. ANY attempt at proof of your statement at this point would be better than what you\'ve provided thus far.

Nice try, but I\'m not about to prove your point for you Gator...you made the statement, now either back it up or don\'t. The burden of proof is on you. So far I have every player in the NFL that EVER played for the Saints so called \"Mickey Mouse\" organization until YOU prove otherwise.

Finally, I\'m not challenging every post -- only those that smell of biased speculation and an agenda -- and at this particular moment that post was posted by you.

Not exactly original there Gatorman, but you KNOW you wanna puff. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

As Gatorman\'s attorney, I will enter the following comments:

\"We rescind our previous statement that referred to the New Orleans Saints organization as being a \'Mickey Mouse\' organization. In its place we will replace those comments with the following: The New Orleans Saints organization is poorly run. It\'s main directors, including but not limited to Jim Haslett and Mickey \'Mouse\' Loomis, are a large part of the reason that the Saints are run inefficiently.\"

TO date, we have entered the comments by former players Kyle Turley, William Roaf, and La\"roi Glover as evidence.

To date the defense, lead by Billy \'Danno\' Saintfan esquire, have entered exactly ZERO comments or evidence made by any third party to support their position. Instead, they enter only opinion.

Saintfan, care to enter any information to the contrary? No? Just want to attack our evidence? OK, for the second time in this thread I guess you\'ll just tell us that your opinion is baseless and materialized via pixie dust and WhoTang.

\"My grounds Whodat, are my opinions. That is all. \" - Saintfan

Keyou is Hungry
 

Gatorman needs a new lawyer. Where\'s all this Media stuff you mentioned. Where are all these players quotes you said you\'d be back in here with. What you have is Turley, and disgruntled Roaf and a highly debateable comment from la\'Roi...one you\'re spinning in an attempt to fit your agenda sir. I\'m no where near convinced. Now you wanna changed the post by Gator to read something to the effect of \"poorly run\". Got any quotes to back that up? Where are they?

Again, I\'m not here to prove Gator\'s point for him, and you\'re foolish to try. I\'m saying I haven\'t heard this stuff, and you and Gator say you have. Where is it. Is it in the Roaf article -- I see him upset as Haz, but I don\'t see him takin\' shots at the Saints organization as \"Poorly Run\" or as a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. I don\'t see that in La\'Roi\'s comments either. Wasn\'t there supposed to me more Whodat? Where is it?

I\'m saying your evidence stinks...you bet I am. And I don\'t HAVE to enter anything to the contrary, although others in this thread already have. I\'m guessing you overlooked it. I\'m not surprised. Gator said it, let him defend it -- or if you wanna defend it then go for it -- but you\'ll need something more that insinuation and speculation to PROVE your points Whatdat, and up to know the both of you are failing miserably ;)

In fact that\'s true, and as I\'ve said before -- I could be wrong, but I\'m not about to make things up or spin the truth to support them. Speculatoin is one thing -- we all do it -- it\'s part of being a fan; however, to insinuate your (gator\'s) speculation is FACT is another animal entirely. I\'m lookin\' for some proof. Gator could say he was mistaken. He won\'t. He continues to effort in the direction of the spin. So do you. That\'s ok. Still waitin\' on all these other quotes you said you\'d find.

Whether my opinion is or isn\'t, it sure seems as though your \"Facts\" are. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

Seriously Gatorman...you\'re attacking me because you failed to prove your pittiful little comment about the Saints being a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. This \"Defend AB and Haz\" stuff you accuse me of is close, but not quite. I see flaws in everybody -- the difference is I see flaws in EVERYBODY. You, and 08, and Whodat specifically place the Saints record at the foot of AB and Haz. I can\'t recall either of you commenting about missed blocks on the line (AB runs for his life) or dropped passes (back when Billy and me were the only two on this board willing to acknowledge it) etc, etc.

Read every one of your posts in this thread for your proof. You don\'t like AB and you don\'t like Haz and your agenda is that you want \'em gone. That\'s fine...we all have our opinions sir, but you post speculation as fact in an attempt to further your view. That\'s the real issue. How many times do I have to point that out to you before you get it?

Thank you. At least you can see that much. My agenda is fair play and a fair representation of the facts.

What experience do you have that I\'m discrediting? I don\'t believe everything the media says. Specific comments? You mean the ones you\'ve failed to provide? Yes, I\'d like to see those. ...still waiting. You haven\'t posted one yet, and only Whodat has tried.

If you could prove what you say is fact, and if you were big enough to admit that perhpas you overshot the honest to goodness truth then perhaps you\'d qualify as a \"know it all\", but at this point you don\'t make the grade.

I\'m sure I could if I thought about it long enough. I could also name 5 good moves made by Haz and 5 good moves made by the Saints. Forgive me for not seeing your point. I\'m quite sure any of us could name 5 bad moves for ANY coach in the NFL in the last 4 years as well as 5 bad moves made by each franchise...whadda you say to that? Do you agree or disagree? You keep trying to skirt the real issue here Gatorman, which is that you posted your opinion as fact and you can\'t back it up with evidence. Man, the more you dig the deeper the hole becomes.

Absolutely false. Read my posts. Go back and quote any of them for me. You\'ll see that I merely include luck and bad calls as an unfortunate part of the game not controlled (entirely) by the head coach. Man you\'re REALLY reaching now.

I realize you two (among others) are frustrated. Heck man we all are, but some of this stuff you guys type is pure speculation...in other words, yeah, you dreamed it up. If you didn\'t it wouldn\'t be so dang hard for the two of you to find proof would it?

Umm..yes, I have. My specific comment here is that you and Whodat can\'t backup what you assume with facts. That\'s my whole reason for participating in this thread.

What, then, do you call making up lies or mis-representing the truth or failing to recognize each factor relative to the situation to express yourself Gatorman? Honorable?

You betcha buddy. Bad luck. The Saints have been knee deep in it. Injuries. They do matter in spite of what 08 would have you think. Bad Calls...if you don\'t think they determine the outcome of games then why is there this thing called instant replay? And lets not forget youth. I\'m a firm believer that players must learn how to win. Now, I\'m not saying those are the only things (which is what you indicate in your post...but you\'re obviously not really reading what I\'m typing)...I\'m saying those things are factors. Some of you blame the whole thing on Haz and/or AB, conveniently dismissing all the external factors that make a football team successful.

There you have it. That\'s how I feel. Nothing assusmed. No mis-quotes. No mis-representations. No agenda other than the truth. If you disagree, then find someone honest to share it with and see what they think about that last paragraph...and while you at it, I\'m still waiting on proof of the following statement:

It\'s been DAYS now Gatorman...where\'s the proof eh?


Saintfan\'s question to Gatorman: Do you think Haz can\'t coach the talent he has or is it that you think he just doesn\'t have any talent on the team?

Gatorman\'s Answer: SHORT ANSWER: BOTH

And then a few posts further into the thread:

Gatorman: The Saints do has talent.

So either you think they do or you think they don\'t. It\'s really one or the other eh?

Pick a side of the fence dude. I don\'t care which one, but it looks bad to stumble back and forth. Ultimately Gator, you don\'t HAVE to prove anything to me, but I have to admit is entertaining to see you blow up like this and not be able to validate what you said. Watching you attempt to shift the focus of the discussion (very much like my current girlfriend does) is worth the trouble. No harm done here. I knew what I was getting into on page one of this thread, just like I knew Whodat would do all in his power to rescue you. The agenda must be defended at all costs, circumstantial evidence or otherwise. The two of you are to be commended for your persistance, but the truth remains: There is still no proof of your statements posted here, and there won\'t be because it doesn\'t exist...but again, I could be wrong. If I\'m wrong, PROVE IT TO ME and stop asking me to prove your point for you, please. It doesn\'t reflect well on either of you! ;)



Moderator note :

This is not a laundry mat .
Debate
But we do not air dirty laundry here .....






[Edited on 16/4/2004 by saintfan]

[Edited on 16/4/2004 by saintz08]

Keyou is Hungry
 

First of all, I\'d like to see this thing reach 4 pages...lol...Second, maybe I don\'t belong in this argument but I am going to throw in my opinion anyway...You can look at every team in the NFL and name 5 bad calls by the coach and the organization...We do have talent on this team...Young talent and it will get better...Do I think the Saints are a Mickey Mouse organization? absolutely not! If you believe that there in no talent on this team (and I am not saying you do), that I your opinion...If we didn\'t have talent, our coach sucked, quarterback sucked then we would be picking in the top 7 or so every year. Since Haslett started coaching this team, we never had a pick in the top 10 (without trading up). We missed the playoffs the last 3 years by 1 or 2 games...Last year, injuries killed us the first half of the season and you can say it was bad luck...Inconsistensy from the wideouts didn\'t help either...Brooks did his job and the recievers didn\'t come through at times...That\'s not his, Haslett\'s, or Loomis\' fault...Fred Thomas could have easily went to a Superbowl contender and chose to stay with us...You don\'t need quotes or articles to prove anything...That says a lot to me, when a player has been on a team that hasn\'t made it to the playoffs the last 3 years and gets an offer to go to an automatic Superbowl contender and turn around to sign back with the Saints...That\'s proof in itself...As far as Turley goes, everyone loved him cause he didn\'t take no crap and played like an animal and the main reason people loved him is cause that everyone hated him except for Saint fans...I remember him calling out St. Louis (no, I don\'t have the frickin article) and now turns around and he\'s just so happy to be in St. Louis. Funny how that works out. You can put Turley\'s character in question also...It\'s not like Turley is the true professional that goes out with class. If he would have said, \"The Saints are a first class organization and Haslett is one of the best coaches in the NFL, \" would you believe it? No, because people only want to hear or read about the negative things. That\'s all I have to say, agree or don\'t agree, I don\'t care.

Keyou is Hungry
 

I think the Saints have done a good job of builiding a young team. Other than Turley and Ricky Williams...there arent many other players in the league having much success that are left over from the Ditka days. They have finally filled this team with NFL calibut players. No, not all of them have developed the way they should have for one reason or another but at least this team has athletes now instead of players who didnt even belong in the NFL. This group of guys leading this organization should be praised for the work they have done rebuilding this franchise.

That is evidenced by the fact that all of you out there think the Saints should be in the playoffs every year when that wasnt at all the case the previous 7 to 10 years before these guys took over. Everyone knew the teams we had in the last years of the Mora regime and throughout the entire Ditka regime were gonna be terrible. Now, we all expect Haslett to get us to the playoffs every year because he has brought in much better players and the Saints arent that far off from being a serious contender.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Collapses are overrated.

Keyou is Hungry
 

[/quote:48de25cf13]There were some great moments and great games and great plays. ALL OVERSHADOWED BY POOR PLAY AND STUPID MISTAKES [/quote:48de25cf13]

Like I said before, people only want to talk about the negatives