We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Yiiiiippiiiiiie. That only means one thing - Vilma is gonna be a Saint next year. He's gotta be damnit! :D

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

He\'s just saying that there is no longer a pressing need at corner. Doesn\'t mean we won\'t draft one. Who knows?

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Vilma, NO
WR Yes

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Why the hell do people think we need a WR so damn bad? San Diego, they need WR help. Kansas City could use some WR\'s. Baltimore needs a WR. We don\'t. We have Joe Horn, and Jerome Pathon, and Donte Stallworth...our need for WR is very small and we can fill it in the 3rd with Colbert. Unless the unthinkable happens and Fitzgerald falls to us, there is no friggin way we should even think about taking a WR.

I am glad you aren\'t running our team. Anybody who watched us last year knows that we couldn\'t stop the run and that was the downfall of our team. We need a dominate MLB, not a guy who is going to sit 4th on our depth chart for a couple seasons.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

We needed a CB before we cut Carter though... Although I like the fact that we managed to fill holes FA so to draft best athlete available as far as upgrading goes. I like Vilma and a lot but being there at 18 is going to be a stretch.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

vilmas too little to stop the run. he can be kind of a glorified safety and play ok against the pass. but we aren\'t stopping the run with vilma. wr is a need, pathons a year from bein a cap cut, donta cant stay on the field and horns gettin old. after those three, everybody on the roster is a question mark. this is a great draft for wrs, stallworth wouldn\'t be in the top 7 of this group if he came out this year. we can get an elite player at wr where we are pickin from. vilma aint elite--less maybe we want to turn him into a SS.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

No clue. Some of the same people that are screaming that we need to select a WR in the 1st have also been screaming to give Stallworth one more year to develop. If it takes a receiver 3 years (which I firmly believe), normally, to get his legs in the NFL, Stallworth will be ready to step up this year, and Gardner next year. So, what are we going to do?

Really? I beg to differ.Top 3? Probably not, but he would be a top 5 selection, much less, a top 7. Big guy (not huge, but nice size for a receiver), projected with great hands, can jump and 4.2/40 speed? Yeah, those types are always falling to the second day- happens all the time. :P

[Edited on 12/4/2004 by BlackandBlue]

[Edited on 12/4/2004 by BlackandBlue]

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Vilma 6\'-1\" 232 lbs...

Starting NFL Middle Linebackers
5-11, 230 Zack Thomas, MIA
6-1, 225 Shelton Quarles, TB
6-0, 234 Mark Simeneu, PHL
6-0, 229 Robert Thomas, STL
6-1, 230 Mike Peterson, JAX

And the best middle linebacker in the NFL,
Ray Lewis 6-0 245 (came into NFL @ 225 lbs)

I will continue to post this every time I see a \"Vilma\'s too small\" posts.
Get used to it.

[Edited on 12/4/2004 by Danno]

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

hahahahahhahahahaha

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

You are ignorant. How many times must I bring up Zach Thomas. Top 3 MLB, and he is SMALLER THAN VILMA! Get it through your head.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

I am not screaming that we need a WR in the first round but i wouldnt mind either. Joe Horn is 32 and already had a down year last year. Donte Stallworth, who i hope is gonna come back strong this year and produce, still hasnt proved he can stay healthy. Jerome Pathon, while consistent, has a big jump in his contract next year and he may be cut. Talman Gardner didnt show me anything at all last year and i know he has potential but do you really wanna hang your hat on a 7th round pick who smokes dope? So potentially, the Saints could have one of the most feared WR crops in the league if they all play the way they can...but we could be in a world of hurt if they play like they did last year. The WR\'s in this draft that will be getting picked in the 18th thru 32nd spots in this draft would all be top 12 picks in any other year. Why not jump on one now?

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

tied for 4th in the nfl with 10 recieving touchdowns, and almost a thousand recieving yards.

horn, paython, lewis, stallworth, im sure you can think of a dozen plays these guys have made. and now we have crowell.

how many plays can you think of that our defense made. we have an ageing smith and one dementional ruff, VILMA was ment to wear black and gold. This is a huge need!!

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Hey Danno, you forgot two. (plus I wanted to see this post again)

Dat Nguyen is one of the better Mikes in the league at 5-11, 231.

Ed McDaniel didn’t miss a game for over 7 years in the middle for Minnihaha at 5-11, 230.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

You guys think too small. I\'m less concerned with what we do in round 1 than what we do in the DRAFT.

Haslett and co. would be wise to go LB in round 1. That being said, the need for a corner may have diminished some with the addition of Craft, but this is exactly what scared me about that trade. We STILL need a young talented corner. They SHOULD go LB in 1, but CB in 2a, WR with 2b, and then best available, preferably on the defensive side of the ball (with one exception for a fullback).

Craft does NOT mean that we don\'t need an impact corner. If I don\'t see us select a corner until the 6th round I\'m going to be livid. Early LB, early CB, early WR (simply b/c the deals are so good there), FB, and everything else on defense (maybe a LT).

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

I know that, but the need to take one in round 1 is now just not there. We can pick up one in the 2nd and let him develop...and chances are, he will be better than the over-rated crap that will go in the first round anyway.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Yeah, Horn did have 10 tds. 4 of them came in the Giants games where all the back ups were playing in the secondary. Horn missed quite a few balls too last year as did just about every other reciever.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

You mean over-rated like Vilma?

Yeah, I agree that the need to take a corner in round 1 has probably been diminished, but they still need to take a CB in the second, IMO.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Yeah, Vilma sure did get burned and ran over like Gamble, Robinson & Hall did. Ooooook.

Seriously, have you seen any of these corners play? Robinson & Gamble were burnt on a regular basis and neither looked like solid corners. The only reason they are first round prospects is because of of their potential and how good of athletes they are. Both only played one year at corner, and that helps their case because most believe they just need time (time that we do not have).

And yeah, we need to take a corner in round 2. We should of taken Mathis or traded up a couple of spots to take Tillman last season, but we didn\'t. And both turned in better rookie seasons than 3 CB\'s who went in round 1 (andre woolfolk, sammy davis, nnamdi asomugha...those guys are all on the level of the top three this year, which isn\'t saying much).

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

You forgot to mention Newman and Trufant. Why? Because the had good years. Newman was the 4th rated corner before he worked out. After he worked out and ran, he became the top corner in the draft. Kinda souns like Hall to me. So, yeah I believe Hall and Robinson can be just as good as Newman and Trufant so I am not againt drafting either of them. Who\'s to say we can\'t draft a starting linebacker in the second round? I guess since your the expert on 2004 NFL draft linebackers you know better.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

He missed some, I think you\'re being a bit too critical because one of those dropped passes meant the difference between winning and losing the game (which the Saints lost, can\'t remember which game it was, but it was late in the season, and even Horn admitted that he dropped a game winner).
Horn has given us a \"playmaker\" at receiver. He has helped this team so much more than he has hurt, I really don\'t uderstand why anyone would want to replace him. I hope he retires a Saint, similar to Bruce, he\'ll probably retire with the Rams.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

I didn\'t mention them because they were looked upon as lockdown corners long before the draft and they had solid rookie years. I was just pointing out that the top 3 CB\'s in this years draft are only as talented as the 3rd, 4th and 5th corners from last year and that we can probably find a better corner in round 2...a corner that is only in round 2 because he went to a small school (like tillman & mathis last year).
And I don\'t know where you were going, but Newman was rated as a top 2-3 corner his entire final season of college and Trufant was right there with him. The top three corners in this years draft aren\'t half as talented as those two guys.

And I know we can get a starting LB in the 2nd round. Hell, you can probably get a very good LB in the 2nd round this year (like, rod davis). But do you want a very good LB, or an elite LB? I\'ll take elite any day. Ray Lewis or Mike Peterson, that is basically what it amounts to. I would be happy with either, but I would much rather have Ray.

If we take Dunta Robinson, I will hope for the best. But it\'s going to take time for him to develop and just do not believe that we have time to develop a corner now.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

who do you think we should trade for ray lewis? i can\'t see the ravens being willing to a deal at any price, hes their whole franchise.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

....you can\'t be serious.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Look, I am not drafting Vilma if Hall and Robinson are gone. I don\'t think he can be classified as an elite linebacker. I don\'t think anyone coming out in this draft class can be called elite until they prove it on the field. I understand your (Rage) feelings in Vilma because I feel the same way about Hall and Robinson. I have read good things from all the guys we discuss. If we get 2 playmakers (lb,cb) thru the draft, I will be more than pleased. If Vilma is one of those guys, then so be it. It\'s just our preferences on who we want to draft (if available) in the first round. If Vilma and some street FA corner are our playmakers next year, then I will be more than satisfied and we can argue over how we going to beat so and so in the playoffs. We desperatley need playmakers at LB and CB. Agree? well, there ya go maybe we agreed on something so far.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Yeah, Horn had nearly 1,000 yards last year...And that is very good for average receivers. I was saying that Horn may be on the downside of his career because he is 32, and he averaged over 1200 yards the 3 seasons before last. He could have easily had that many more and he probably should have had 15 TD\'s last year but he didnt play like Joe Horn. No one on this site loves Joe Horn more than i do but i am saying that we may not be able to rely on Joe for 90 catches and 1300 yards anymore. Joe didnt have a bad game, he had a bad season. That is usually a sign that he is on the downward slide. I hope that Joe comes back and makes the plays that Joe Horn made in the past...but i dont think it would be foolish to look for his replacement when there are so many playmakers available now. Thank you and God Bless.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

The Joe Horn game you were referring to was the Bucs game, B n B. I was freakin IRATE at that...He was wide open in the end zone and just dropped it like French Quarter hooker. IMO, the main reason Horn wasn\'t effective last year was because the main #2 receiver, Stallworth, was injured most of the year. This left Pathon as the #2 and who else was left? Lewis? Gardner? No wonder are receivers were pathetic last year. Pathon, no matter what anyone says, is NOT a legitimate #2. He\'s decent and makes a great #3, but that\'s about the extent of it. He doesn\'t draw enough attention for defenders to go man-to-man. Horn was doubled up on like a well-hung man by two blondes in a porn flick. If I were in the war room, I\'d definitely be looking at linebacker first and foremost. Corner would be my 2A pick, and WR definitely with 2B. Who knows how the receivers will perform last year? Using an early pick on someone with the possibility of being a future star does not bother me in the least. Just make sure that linebacker and corner are addressed accordingly.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

My main problem with drafting Vilma is this. He\'s a MLB that many scouts are predicting will have to move to WLB in the NFL.

But we already have Cie Grant. a player who may have to move back to WLB. Not to mention our best LB from last year was our WLB. (Rodgers)

Vilma and Cie are the same type of player, and if neither works out as a MLB, we\'re whooped. We\'d have 3 good WLBs and still a weak unit overall.

Because of that, I\'d prefer Donta Thomas with 2a rather than Vilma with 1. Donta is a MLB that coulc also be a SLB, rather than another MLB/WLB guy. That way, if Cie is a success in the middle, we don\'t have to worry about Sedrick \"Houdini\" Hodge anymore. If Cie isn\'t successful, he can move over to WLB, and Thomas can play the middle.

To be honest, I\'d really like to see the Saints trade down in the first. If Hall and Robinson are gone, I\'d really like to see the Saints move back, draft Strait, and get some extra picks as well.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

In a previous post, regarding corners, rAge says....

So he\'d rather take a corner in the 2nd and let him develop? But later, he says....

rAge, you contradicted yourself in the same thread buddy. So what is it man, are you coming, or going??

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

We don\'t have time for a first rounder to develop, that was my point. Besides that, the 2nd round CB\'s could develop a lot faster than the \'raw\' 1st round guys (I know I\'ve said it before, but look at Mathis & Tillman last year and compare to Woolfolk)

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

You\'re right, undoubtably some second round corners will end up being better than some of the first round corners. The problem is, you don\'t know which second round corners are going to turn out better than expected. If teams knew Tillman was going to be better than Woolfork, than Tillman would of been drafted before Woolfork. This is the same for any postion, LINEBACKERS INCLUDED.

The players who are more likely to succeed are drafted first. So we would have the BEST chance of getting a quality corner if we chose one with our first pick rather than with our second. You said yourself, you don\'t think we have time to let a corner develop. So why wait until the second to draft one? How could that be any better for the team?

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Tillman & Mathis were drafted in the 2nd because they came from a small school, not because people didn\'t think they had the talent. Those guys dominated on their level, much like Joey Thomas & Keith Smith in this draft. Woolfork was drafted in the first because of potential, he is a very raw prospect that needs time to develop...much like Hall, Gamble & Robinson (especially the last two, who only have one year at corner). It would be better for us to take a corner in round 2 because the chances of them coming in and starting by mid-season are greater than if we took one of the top three, who need at least a full year to develop before they should even see starting time. I am tired of drafting on potential - I want to see production NOW.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Dunta Robinson played 2 full years of corner at USC. You\'re facts are as flawed as your logic. :P

I am in full agreement with you regarding Chris Gamble, I don\'t think he is NFL ready and I don\'t think he will ever really be an elite cornerback.

But I don\'t think you can honestly believe that Keith Smith is more NFL ready than Dunta Robinson or DeAngleo Hall. I highly doubt ANYONE with any real football knowledge could believe that.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Everything that I have read said that he moved from Saftey to Corner this year. And even if he did play two years, he is still very raw and should not see any real starting time this year.

I think Gamble will turn out to be the best of the bunch, but I don\'t think we can afford to take the time to develop him (you\'re probably looking at two full seasons before he is even ready). I also don\'t know if our coaching staff has the talent to develop a guy like him. Send him to the Patriots and he could be starting by the end of the year, send him to the Bears and he may never be a starter.

I haven\'t seen enough of Keith Smith to really say. I base most of what I know about him on what I have read. He could be this year\'s Charles Tillman, but I don\'t think anyone believes Hall or Robinson can be this year\'s Trufant or Newman. Is he more NFL ready? Who knows. But when you can pick up an NFL ready player in round 1 (vilma) and still get a guy that could be more ready (at corner) in round 2, why wouldn\'t ya?

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Because I\'d rather take a top corner in round 1 (Dunta) and stil get a guy that is NFL ready in round 2 (Donta Thomas or Teddy Lehmen).

I disagree with you on two points, which is what this argument has really boiled down to.

1. I think Vilma will be a good linebacker. He may or may not be great.
You think Vilma will definitely be one of the game\'s eliite linebackers.

2. I feel that Dunta is the most NFL ready of the cornerback prospects and could start fairly quickly. I feel some other corners (Hall, Strait, and possibly Joey Thomas) should also be able to start fairly quickly.
You think that some 2nd round corners (Joey Thomas, Keith Smith?) will be able to come in and start just as quickly as the corners likely to go in the first round.

So it comes down to you wanting Vilma in 1, and Joey Thomas or Keith Smith in 2.
While I\'d prefer Dunta in 1, and Donta Thomas or Teddy Lehmen in 2.

When you think about it, our draft philosophies really aren\'t that different, the difference is just in our opinions of the draft prospects.

[Edited on 14/4/2004 by Cadillac]

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

Dunta Robinson is the most NFL ready player of anyone we have debated. Vilma and Hall are both more talented but there are questions one way or the other on both of them. There is no way the Saints can pass on Robinson if he is there. Vilma and Hall may both be great, they may both be good, but you just dont know. Vilma has never played at the weight he is gonna be playing at so we just dont know how that is gonna fare. If he does make the adjustment well, he will be a solid, if not great, linebacker in the NFL.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

This is the best comment in this thread so far, and to be honest, something I hadn\'t really thought about much until you said it. Where ya been D? You gotta come by more often.

We Aren't Targeting a CB in Round 1
 

It wouldnt matter who was lining up with Horn against Tennessee or Tampa. He flat out dropped simple TD passes. That had nothing to do with Stallworth or Pathon. Thank you and God Bless.