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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by Halo As a legal mind I want to ask you G504 a few questions: 1) Where has the NFL made the nexus between the Saints "Bounty" system and injury to players in the NFL? 2) Suspending Sean ...

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Old 03-21-2012, 10:38 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Halo View Post
As a legal mind I want to ask you G504 a few questions:

1) Where has the NFL made the nexus between the Saints "Bounty" system and injury to players in the NFL?

2) Suspending Sean Payton - Saints head coach, and Gregg Williams - Rams defensive coordinator, thereby penalizing the Saints and Rams, how do these equate justice for players and the league?

3) Do you believe the NFL owners will allow for this? (ie.each of them could be next and could cost their teams $$$)

4) In the fallout over this penalty, will Roger Goodell eventually fall on the bad end of the PR game and possible be asked to resign?

Keep in mind recent precedents including Spygate where the Pats lost a 1st round pick and Bilick was FINED and not SUSPENDED over a cheating scandal whereby the Pats were video taping teams illegally to gain an advantage over the opposing team on gameday.
1) They haven't. Every press release I've seen has said this is about "sending a message to the other teams." There is a reason attempted crimes are punished less that completed crimes. In case, the attempt to injury is being punished MORE than the actual injuring.

2) It doesn't. Goodell just wanted to hurt the Saints' chances of winning. How many impact players do we still have from the 09 defense? Just Vilma, Ellis, Porter, Greer and Smith, right? This wouldn't have happened if we sucked. This was about revenge. He doesn't know how to manage today's world of social media and 24 hour news. To him, it feels like "everybody" is saying the we cheated to a Superbowl win and that reflects poorly on the NFL. Dude, it's just twitter! Calm down. Just wait for Rhianna's boob to pop out her dress and everybody will stop talking about this. Then quietly handout some fines like you did with the Pats.

3) I don't know. My Sports Law professor was actually the then general counsel for the NFL, but that was way back in 2001. Obviously, we never talked about anything close to this.

4) Not sure if I'm more qualified to answer that one, but I think so. Like I said, excessive punishments make the people see the governing body as unjust. So maybe owners will wake up and realize they gotta vote no-confidence on this guy.

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Old 03-21-2012, 10:43 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Halo View Post
As a legal mind I want to ask you G504 a few questions:

1) Where has the NFL made the nexus between the Saints "Bounty" system and injury to players in the NFL?

2) Suspending Sean Payton - Saints head coach, and Gregg Williams - Rams defensive coordinator, thereby penalizing the Saints and Rams, how do these equate justice for players and the league?

3) Do you believe the NFL owners will allow for this? (ie.each of them could be next over whatever scandal or breaking of rules or constitutional laws of the NFL and could cost their teams $$$)

4) In the fallout over this penalty, will Roger Goodell eventually fall on the bad end of the PR game and possible be asked to resign?

Keep in mind recent precedents including Spygate where the Pats lost a 1st round pick and Bilick was FINED and not SUSPENDED over a cheating scandal whereby the Pats were video taping teams illegally to gain an advantage over the opposing team on gameday.
Good question all and I'm interested in the answers too. I'm no lawyer (not even close) but I've heard the argument about excessive punishment before. I truly expected the punishment to be similar to what the Patriots received - in my estimation that was fair.

I wonder too if Sean or the Saints have any recourse other than to appeal to the NFL? My guess is no, they don't.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:21 PM   #13
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After sleeping on it for a night, I have come to the conclusion that Sean Payton's year-long suspension penalty in particular, had only a portion to do with the actual "bounty" scandal itself, but was really a "gotcha" for a bunch of things that the league have previously tried to nail him and the Saints on previously, but couldn't. Most importantly his friendship with Michael Ornstein, who is a persona non grata that the league would like to wash their hands of completely.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:09 PM   #14
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Good thread!
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Danno View Post
The death penalty definitely deters the perpetrator from murdering someone again.

But it's deterring quality can also backfire, for example in a case where the perpetrator knows that a certain crime that he/she is committing is punishable by death - there is a higher incentive for him/her to kill all potential witnesses.

That is why at certain point the attended deterrence can actually cause more crime than it decreases.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by FinSaint View Post
But it's deterring quality can also backfire, for example in a case where the perpetrator knows that a certain crime that he/she is committing is punishable by death - there is a higher incentive for him/her to kill all potential witnesses.

That is why at certain point the attended deterrence can actually cause more crime than it decreases.
That same incentive exists if the penalty is life in prison too.

The death penalty isn't a deterrent, its a punishment for murdering another human being.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:59 PM   #17
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The punishment is not about BountyGate, but that the Saints lied to Goodell and made him look like a douche(which isnt hard to do). Lets be honest, he doesnt really care about the players that could have or were injured, it was a matter of Goodell being disrespected. "Sometimes you have to shoot a hostage, for them to take you seriously" this is a perfect example of that. Packers, Redskins, Giants....all these teams have already admitted to similiar tactics. Nothing happens to them. Suh stomps on someone, actually causing bodily harm, and is gone for a couple games. Payton and squad LIE to Goodell, he turns into a high school cheerleader on a power trip, and overreacts and sends down this punishment.
Danno likes this.

is this all really happening????
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:01 PM   #18
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Here's the thing though. While I am outraged at Goodell for this completely prejudice and biased penalization of the Saints for what they did. I STILL don't see, proof of intent.

Just because there were monies paid for a hit that caused a player to have to leave a game does not infer malicious intent to permanantly hurt that player. Additionally, just because there were monies paid for a hit that caused a player to be carted off the field also does not infer malicious intent to permanantly hurt that player. Where has the NFL proved intent to permanantly injure any player in any game where said bounties were inferred?

Aside from those FACTS, I am disgusted by the actions of Payton, Loomis and Gregg Williams. We have struggled for decades and we have longed, for decades, to have a classy, stand up, winning organization. We have endured obviously biased officiating, embarrassing play by players that should have never been allowed to play football. We have endured bad coaching, ownership, and General Managers. We have endured slights and slurs from every team, their fans and every sports caster that ever lifted a microphone to their mouths and finally, FINALLY, after 42 YEARS of enduring and ignoring and persevering, we FINALLY get the team we've always dreamed of. A first class, stand up organization and winning team that FINALLY brought us a CHAMPIONSHIP to be proud of and then we find out that the ARROGANCE of Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis and Gregg Williams have taken that Monumentous Achievement and turned it into rubbish. They have taken the fans adoration and made it so that we now will have our noses rubbed in the dirt again for years to come.

And what of Gregg Williams? Gregg Williams has for years been one of the most respected, revered and feared defensive coaches in football. Our Saints have NEVER had a defensive coach of his caliber, and everyone, not just myself and Saints Fans the world over, including all the sports casters considered the signing of Gregg Williams to be THE MAJOR COUP
of the year in 2009.

Gregg Williams was such a good and sought after coach that Sean Payton even had to give up some of his own money to get him signed (Makes you wonder if Benson knew something about him, doesn't it?).

Then the season began. We finally saw our players playing the type of physical ball that Super Bowl Champions play. Teams like the 49ers did back in the day, the Steelers, the Titans, the Ravens and on and on. We were getting turnovers like we've never gotten them before, and while all that was good and wonderful, we could see an underlying problem. A problem with the defense that NEVER was fixed, and as time went on, that problem got bigger and bigger and our defense got worse and worse. In all the years of Gregg Williams defenses, his 2010 and 2011 defenses were some of the worse he's ever fielded and some of the worse that we've ever fielded. So in essence, we NEVER got one of Gregg Williams' defenses. But the thing that bothers me the most is that Gregg Williams came into this organization that was on the rise, had developed itself as a team and organization to be envied by the league and just took a dump all over the organization, the team and the fans that took him in and gave him the love. How did Gregg Williams repay the city and fans for their love and devotion? By running this Bounty System which I believe EVERYONE RUNS, and I also believe that Sean Payton, not wanting to take a chance of losing Gregg Williams decided to look the other way as did Mickey Loomis. Gregg Williams took that authority and trust of Mr. Benson, Mickey Loomis and Sean Payton and destroyed everything they had built and to top it off, unceremoniously ran off to be with his BFF, Jeff Fisher in St. Louis, leaving the Saints to deal with what was coming. Gregg Williams has since apologized not once, but twice for what he did, making only coursery acknowledgement of what he did to the State of Louisiana, the City of New Orleans and most of all to the FANS who so adored him. Mr. Williams, you sir are a scum bag and I hope you NEVER get to coach in the NFL again or even college for that matter. You are what we teach our children NOT to be.

Mr. Goodell, is just as bad as Gregg Williams in the sanctions levied only upon the Saints and the refusal to continue the investigation or to administer the same sanctions against the other 31 teams in the league, making the Saints, it's owner, organization, city, state and fans the scapegoat for all the evils of the other NFL teams. This non action against the other teams has tarnished the league's image and it will not over come the stain of it's prejudice and manipulation of the game in favor of only certain teams. Mr. Goodell, will be the cause of the destruction of the greatest sport and the greatest institution in the history of sports and should be fired before he does just that.
Sorry for the length of this post, but I just had to say what needed to be said.

Last edited by Marlboro Man; 03-22-2012 at 03:27 PM..
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Danno View Post
That same incentive exists if the penalty is life in prison too.

The death penalty isn't a deterrent, its a punishment for murdering another human being.

Every punishment in the judicial system automatically carries with it a deterrence quality (including the death penalty), that has been the case ever since the criminal system took the pivotal step towards having the ultimate goal of rehabilitating perpetrators instead of simply punishing them. Hence a system of corrections and rehabilitation exists nowadays instead of a straightforward penal system of the olden times.

Of course experts disagree and it is to some extent a matter of opinion, but I do think that there is a higher chance of a perpetrator committing additional crimes if the consequence of the initial crime is a death penalty instead of penalty of life in prison. And we have to remember that in US only the federal system carries a life sentence without parole, so in practice a "life in prison" can mean a 20 to 30 year prison sentence before parole in the state system.

"I don't think I'll be thinking at all. I think I'm just gonna go out there and play my balls out" - Martez Wilson | "I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:32 PM   #20
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Life in prison... you can still get out, but death sentence that is a little more harder to get over.

Some states 20 years if life.
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