An Outsider's Perspective.

Euphoria · 03-23-2012, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

Who is the "rapist" you speak of?

oh that's right...

Ben Roethlisberger

I can't believe the point they totally ignored that the girl was under age and he bought her drinks... wouldn't let her leave, kidnapping but its a NFL start other than the Saints so its ok.

HouYat · 03-23-2012, 08:59 PM

So does the OP think that the penalties were excessive or not? I saw a poll that most of the country outside of LA, TX, MS, AL & AR thought the penalties were fair & just. What's your answer?

Velvet Llama · 03-23-2012, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by HouYat

So does the OP think that the penalties were excessive or not? I saw a poll that most of the country outside of LA, TX, MS, AL & AR thought the penalties were fair & just. What's your answer?

I think that the penalties were absolutely fair and just. As I said before, the NFL made it clear that the penalties were not just for the bounties but, particularly in the case of Payton, for lying to investigators and trying to cover things up. Remember that the Saints were given a chance to stop this without penalties when the league first approached them about the bounties. Several team officials chose to lie to the league instead of taking this chance to put things right without imposition of severe penalties.

As for "everyone else is doing it" the commissioner can only act on the evidence he is given. If someone came to him with similiar evidence of this system on any other team he would investigate it, because that's his job. There's a reason he asked the other 31 teams to certify that they have no such programs. If somebody blows the whistle on another team after they swore to having no such programs, it paves the way for swift imposition of penalties. Unless you think he's out to "get" the Saints. But, for several reasons I noted in my original post, that theory does not hold up to even a cursory look at how the league has supported and actively marketed the Saints franchise over the past several years.

One other important thing to note is that it doesn't really matter if the Saints actually did take cheap shots or successfully injure other players (although as the NFL noted in its report, the Saints were near the top of the league in illegal hitting penalties for each of the seasons when Williams was the D coordinator). The offering of bounties is wrong regardless of whether or not they were successfully carried out. For example, hiring a hit man is illegal even if he doesn't kill his target. Obviously two very different acts, but the logic is the same.

I just think, when you get right down to it, Sean Payton and other team officials are the reason the Saints are in this position right now. This was not about hard hits, this was about targeting other players for injury in a systematic fashion and a subsequent attempt at a coverup when the league investigated. I don't see how Goodell could have done any less given what Payton and others admitted to doing.

|Mitch| · 03-23-2012, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Velvet Llama

As for "everyone else is doing it" the commissioner can only act on the evidence he is given. If someone came to him with similiar evidence of this system on any other team he would investigate it, because that's his job.

Proof enough for you?

Kyle Williams Concussions: Giants Targeted 49ers Player Due To Previous Head Injuries

how about this?

http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/nf...er/posts/17001

Velvet Llama · 03-23-2012, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by jlouhill

Velvet, our anger is not misdirected, your perception of it is. The vast majority of us are in agreement that stiff penalties needed to be handed down. Though we don't condone what was going on we stand by our Head Coach and team through this. We are not angered at Goodell for hammering us here. We are mad at him about the one year Payton got. That was totally over the top and uncalled for. It is a blatant abuse of power and as others have already said it's just the NFL's way of CYA at our expense. No, our anger isn't misdirected. The NFL hasn't seen angry yet. Our season may be a wash this year, I hope not, I hope we kick a$$ all year and don't miss a beat, but come next year when we get everyone back and all this is behind us I hope Sean, Brees and company hits the field with a take no prisoners attitude and kicks the ever loving crap out of everone, legally. I hope we strive to hang 50+ on everyone and don't stop scoring until the final whistle sounds. Yea, we're angry, but just wait and see. The NFL will see in due time just how angry we are, and trust me, it won't be misdirected.

I should apologize if it sounded like I thought all Saints fans felt the same way and I also realize that my post about "misdirected anger" could have come across as condescending. That really wasn't my intent and I apologize if I sounded that way.

Velvet Llama · 03-23-2012, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

Proof enough for you?

Kyle Williams Concussions: Giants Targeted 49ers Player Due To Previous Head Injuries

how about this?

Ex-Ravens coach Billick confirms existence of bounties | NFL News Tracker | FanNation.com

That isn't proof but it's absolutely something that might warrant investigation. And given that the NFL already investigated the Redskins and Bills in connection to Williams coaching positions with those teams, I wouldn't be surprised if these kind of comments lead to investigations. But another important thing to remember is that people went to the league directly with evidence of a bounty program going on. If similar evidence was brought to the league regarding other teams, I am sure an investigation would be launched.

|Mitch| · 03-23-2012, 10:41 PM

Ravens linebacker Terrell Suggs made headlines earlier this week when he said he and his teammates placed a bounty on Steelers Rashard Mendenhall and Hines Ward. Former Ravens coach Brian Billick said Suggs never should have made the bounty public.

You're telling me this ain't proof?

papz · 03-23-2012, 10:53 PM

This bounty system has always been practiced league wide... it's nothing new. This isn't about being punished, it was deserved. It's about being made as an example and excessively punished by Goodell to get his point across.

Report: Tennessee Titans and Baltimore Ravens had bounty programs in place - National NFL | Examiner.com

It's pathetic how the media and fans(including ours) can be completely oblivious as if it's something new and inhumane. It's been utilized by virtually every team in some way, shape, or form throughout the leagues existence. All those people with those hoity toity holier than thou opinions can shove it and start watching ping pong.

Next thing you know the Senate is going to start coming down on Nascar drivers that intentionally bump other drivers for better position... someone could get hurt. As if driving 200 mph wasn't risky in the first place.

ChrisXVI · 03-23-2012, 10:53 PM

How much money did the NFL make off of the highest rated program in TV history (yes, that would be the Saints beating the Colts in the Super Bowl)?! Is Goodell willing to give up some of his salary that he made off the very team that he's punishing?! Not bloody likely. It must be nice to be the Packers... Get busted for having a bounty program 5 years ago and get off the hook unpunished because someone didn't snitch that they were probably still doing it. Sorry for ranting... The whole thing just sucks.

Velvet Llama · 03-23-2012, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by papz

This bounty system has always been practiced league wide... it's nothing new. This isn't about being punished, it was deserved. It's about being made as an example and excessively punished by Goodell to get his point across.

It's pathetic how the media and fans(including ours) can be completely oblivious as if it's something new and inhumane. It's been utilized by virtually every team in some way, shape, or form throughout the leagues existence. All those people with those hoity toity holier than thou opinions can shove it and start watching ping pong.

The strong reaction against the saints we've seen from many players and the almost non existent statements of "this is unfair" from players would indicate that what the Saints did goes beyond what happens in other locker rooms. Can't say that for sure, but when was the last time you saw so many players actively condemning other players in the league for things that typically are understood to stay in the locker room?

03-23-2012, 08:49 PM	#11
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| Who is the "rapist" you speak of? oh that's right... Ben Roethlisberger I can't believe the point they totally ignored that the girl was under age and he bought her drinks... wouldn't let her leave, kidnapping but its a NFL start other than the Saints so its ok.

03-23-2012, 10:20 PM	#13
Velvet Llama Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6	Originally Posted by HouYat So does the OP think that the penalties were excessive or not? I saw a poll that most of the country outside of LA, TX, MS, AL & AR thought the penalties were fair & just. What's your answer? I think that the penalties were absolutely fair and just. As I said before, the NFL made it clear that the penalties were not just for the bounties but, particularly in the case of Payton, for lying to investigators and trying to cover things up. Remember that the Saints were given a chance to stop this without penalties when the league first approached them about the bounties. Several team officials chose to lie to the league instead of taking this chance to put things right without imposition of severe penalties. As for "everyone else is doing it" the commissioner can only act on the evidence he is given. If someone came to him with similiar evidence of this system on any other team he would investigate it, because that's his job. There's a reason he asked the other 31 teams to certify that they have no such programs. If somebody blows the whistle on another team after they swore to having no such programs, it paves the way for swift imposition of penalties. Unless you think he's out to "get" the Saints. But, for several reasons I noted in my original post, that theory does not hold up to even a cursory look at how the league has supported and actively marketed the Saints franchise over the past several years. One other important thing to note is that it doesn't really matter if the Saints actually did take cheap shots or successfully injure other players (although as the NFL noted in its report, the Saints were near the top of the league in illegal hitting penalties for each of the seasons when Williams was the D coordinator). The offering of bounties is wrong regardless of whether or not they were successfully carried out. For example, hiring a hit man is illegal even if he doesn't kill his target. Obviously two very different acts, but the logic is the same. I just think, when you get right down to it, Sean Payton and other team officials are the reason the Saints are in this position right now. This was not about hard hits, this was about targeting other players for injury in a systematic fashion and a subsequent attempt at a coverup when the league investigated. I don't see how Goodell could have done any less given what Payton and others admitted to doing.
Velvet Llama Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6

03-23-2012, 10:23 PM	#14
\|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303	Originally Posted by Velvet Llama As for "everyone else is doing it" the commissioner can only act on the evidence he is given. If someone came to him with similiar evidence of this system on any other team he would investigate it, because that's his job. Proof enough for you? Kyle Williams Concussions: Giants Targeted 49ers Player Due To Previous Head Injuries how about this? http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/nf...er/posts/17001
	Last edited by \|Mitch\|; 03-23-2012 at 10:26 PM..

03-23-2012, 10:27 PM	#15
Velvet Llama Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6	Originally Posted by jlouhill Velvet, our anger is not misdirected, your perception of it is. The vast majority of us are in agreement that stiff penalties needed to be handed down. Though we don't condone what was going on we stand by our Head Coach and team through this. We are not angered at Goodell for hammering us here. We are mad at him about the one year Payton got. That was totally over the top and uncalled for. It is a blatant abuse of power and as others have already said it's just the NFL's way of CYA at our expense. No, our anger isn't misdirected. The NFL hasn't seen angry yet. Our season may be a wash this year, I hope not, I hope we kick a$$ all year and don't miss a beat, but come next year when we get everyone back and all this is behind us I hope Sean, Brees and company hits the field with a take no prisoners attitude and kicks the ever loving crap out of everone, legally. I hope we strive to hang 50+ on everyone and don't stop scoring until the final whistle sounds. Yea, we're angry, but just wait and see. The NFL will see in due time just how angry we are, and trust me, it won't be misdirected. I should apologize if it sounded like I thought all Saints fans felt the same way and I also realize that my post about "misdirected anger" could have come across as condescending. That really wasn't my intent and I apologize if I sounded that way.
Velvet Llama Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6

03-23-2012, 10:39 PM	#16
Velvet Llama Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6	Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| Proof enough for you? Kyle Williams Concussions: Giants Targeted 49ers Player Due To Previous Head Injuries how about this? Ex-Ravens coach Billick confirms existence of bounties \| NFL News Tracker \| FanNation.com That isn't proof but it's absolutely something that might warrant investigation. And given that the NFL already investigated the Redskins and Bills in connection to Williams coaching positions with those teams, I wouldn't be surprised if these kind of comments lead to investigations. But another important thing to remember is that people went to the league directly with evidence of a bounty program going on. If similar evidence was brought to the league regarding other teams, I am sure an investigation would be launched.
Velvet Llama Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6

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03-23-2012, 08:59 PM	#12
HouYat Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Humble, Texas Posts: 460	So does the OP think that the penalties were excessive or not? I saw a poll that most of the country outside of LA, TX, MS, AL & AR thought the penalties were fair & just. What's your answer?

03-23-2012, 10:41 PM	#17
\|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303	Ravens linebacker Terrell Suggs made headlines earlier this week when he said he and his teammates placed a bounty on Steelers Rashard Mendenhall and Hines Ward. Former Ravens coach Brian Billick said Suggs never should have made the bounty public. You're telling me this ain't proof?

03-23-2012, 10:53 PM	#18
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,681	This bounty system has always been practiced league wide... it's nothing new. This isn't about being punished, it was deserved. It's about being made as an example and excessively punished by Goodell to get his point across. Report: Tennessee Titans and Baltimore Ravens had bounty programs in place - National NFL \| Examiner.com It's pathetic how the media and fans(including ours) can be completely oblivious as if it's something new and inhumane. It's been utilized by virtually every team in some way, shape, or form throughout the leagues existence. All those people with those hoity toity holier than thou opinions can shove it and start watching ping pong. Next thing you know the Senate is going to start coming down on Nascar drivers that intentionally bump other drivers for better position... someone could get hurt. As if driving 200 mph wasn't risky in the first place. lynwood likes this.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way.

03-23-2012, 10:53 PM	#19
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	How much money did the NFL make off of the highest rated program in TV history (yes, that would be the Saints beating the Colts in the Super Bowl)?! Is Goodell willing to give up some of his salary that he made off the very team that he's punishing?! Not bloody likely. It must be nice to be the Packers... Get busted for having a bounty program 5 years ago and get off the hook unpunished because someone didn't snitch that they were probably still doing it. Sorry for ranting... The whole thing just sucks.

03-23-2012, 10:59 PM	#20
Velvet Llama Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6	Originally Posted by papz This bounty system has always been practiced league wide... it's nothing new. This isn't about being punished, it was deserved. It's about being made as an example and excessively punished by Goodell to get his point across. It's pathetic how the media and fans(including ours) can be completely oblivious as if it's something new and inhumane. It's been utilized by virtually every team in some way, shape, or form throughout the leagues existence. All those people with those hoity toity holier than thou opinions can shove it and start watching ping pong. The strong reaction against the saints we've seen from many players and the almost non existent statements of "this is unfair" from players would indicate that what the Saints did goes beyond what happens in other locker rooms. Can't say that for sure, but when was the last time you saw so many players actively condemning other players in the league for things that typically are understood to stay in the locker room?
Velvet Llama Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6

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