New York Giants admit to doing exactly the same thing as the New Orleans Saints!
 

I don't know if anyone caught this, but there was a blurb I just read on nfl.com that indicated that Giants' players had discussions about "taking out" Kyle Williams prior to the NFC Championship Game. There were conversations about his history of concussions and how if they hit him real hard they could either get him carted off or at least rattle him.

Is this not the EXACT same thing he-who-must-not-be-named discussed with his defensive players prior to the Saints' divisional matchup with the San Francisco 49ers?

"The thing is, we knew (Kyle Williams) had four concussions," Jacquian Williams told NYMag.com after the game. "So that was our biggest thing -- was to take him out of the game."

Here is a link to the nfl.com article: NFL.com news: Flashback: Giants targeted 49ers' Williams in playoffs

And here is a link to the nymag.com article: Did Giants Strategically Concuss Kyle Williams? -- The Sports Section

Call me crazy, but aren't the Saints just being singled out for sh*t that the entire league seems to endorse behind closed doors? I mean, I realize that the Gregg Williams audio is horrible and all, but my thinking is that the Saints are just the ones who got caught.

(cross-posted at canalstreetchronicles)

We have been singled out. That's never been a doubt in my mind.

The sad thing is I don't know whether we're really the only one's who got caught, or the only one's being punished. Obviously, the latter is true right now. The league definitely knows there are other bounties, and have done nothing about them, but I'm starting to think they know that other teams have done exactly what the Saints have, and still are doing nothing... Either way, justice isn't remotely involved.

Ya know with all this going around, what I think happened was the owners of the league got together with GODell and put pressure on him to do whatever he could so we wouldn't have home field advantage in the superbowl. What is going on now is the outcome of that pressure.

But hey, I'm a conspiracy theorist. :(

You guys are pathetic if you try to defend any of this. It's ridiculous the stuff Gregg Williams was saying.

uh-oh, we have another moron in the room. Pat McIrish, NOBODY is defending what Williams said: nobody is defending Williams or bounties AT ALL! Get a clue man! People are pissed off because the Saints are the only ones singled out for punishment, the only one the league is investigating, because of their being "arrogant" or "maverick" or some other garbage like that =- while meanwhile, the last THREE Super Bowl winning teams ALL had some form of bounty or targeted injury program recently in place. So spare us the morality lecture about what's right and wrong and go away. We know that already.

Pat, plzgo.

Kudos to the Giants, they learned from the Saints mistake. Took the initiative and were open about it before anything was leaked and aren't trying to hide anything (so far). Still think the severity for most of this is our "cover up". Looks like the Giants saw this.

Well now we know who one of the two idiots that voted no is. :/ Like SaintsBro said,none of us here are trying to justify in anyway what GW did. In fact most hated GW before the scandal.That being said we are pissed that the Saints are being singled out and treated like our DC is the only one to ever do this. When there is blatant evidence being completely ignored by the hypocrite Rodger Goodell.

How in the world would you know that? Answer is you don't. You have no idea who the league is investigating. You also have no idea about the last 3 SuperBowl teams either. If you do show proof like what has come out against you guys. I mean a film crew was in the room and the team was already under investigation for this when GW was talking!? I can't imagine what he said with no cameras around? Is this guy for real?

I like the Saints, live in Biloxi part of the year but this was unexcusable. I don't care if it's my team or some other team, coaches giving out money for his players to go after ACL's? That's flat out pathetic! The Saints deserve everything they get. And if you're a real fan you'd have spoken out against what you guys did instead of using the 8 year old "well Joey does it too" excuse for why you shouldn't be punished.

Link please!

Still don't think the "well everyone else is doing it" is much of an excuse but let's see that blatant evidence you're talking about.

going after injured players is NOT the same as a team paying their players BONUS' for injuring players.

It's one thing for players to do it, it's another thing for a team to endorse it/pay their players for doing it.

Not trying to start a fight, just voicing my opinion that it's NOT the same thing.

This whole thing is just screwed up. The Saints got theirs but I wish someone else would take their hits too. There has to be penalities for others otherwish Goodell is disgraced.

No jokeray, both are the same in that both are wrong. Wrong. Immoral. Not part of this sport.


Goodell wants to put player safety first.
great. NFL has some lawsuits against it for severe injuries , concussions , by past players.

Well, the NFL is not protecting themselves by being so severe with Saints' punishments.
As if former players' atty's, insurance companies will look at this Giants ' record in print. Other teams bounty talk that is out there on record.

This was a very good effort and great bandaid by Goodell.
You know what happens to bandaids.

I keep hearing you guys asking penalties for others, who else has been taped and up against this kind of clear evidence? If it's out there you're absolutely right, they should be punished as well.

And FTR I agree about Goodell, not sure what he is thinking sometime. The Pats should have gotten a lot more than they did. But in the end none of that is relevant, what you guys did was wrong and frankly I'm shocked so many of you are okay with it.

I'm a Bucs fan first, like the Saints 2nd, but I remember when Sapp kicked someone in the head. I pissed everyone on the Bucs board off for jumping on but I knew he did it on purpose. The old "accidently" kick the QB in the head as you pretend to try and step over the pile.

I guess we're all different, to me as a Saint fan or not I'd be outraged at what my boys were doing. There's no excuse for that kind of crap, but since it's your team most are giving a pass.

Pat, people ARE outraged about it.

But there are links all over the internet, including IN THIS THREAD, to actual players admitting about the Giants targeting opposing players for specific injuries (concussions in the 49ers game) and about the Packers having a similar cash bounty program to the Saints in 2007 (it's called Googling something, you should try "Packers bounty 2007" and read). That, including the Saints, means that the last three Super Bowl teams ALL recently had either bounty programs in place, or specific targeting of players with malicious intent to injure. Not to even mention, known past bounty systems in places like Washington, the Ravens, the Titans and others. Where are their fines and suspensions? Where is the investigation of them? Where was Goodell and the league on this issue, before 2010 and the concussion lawsuits? YOU tell me what the league did to crack down on it.

YOU prove it -- YOU prove the league is out there actually investigating these other teams, and not sweeping this whole phenomenon under the rug after "sending a message" to the Saints. YOU show me some other team that is being investigated by the NFL. It's my turn to smugly stand up and yell "Link, please!" like a total *******.

It's not an EXCUSE, dummy. Get a clue, NOBODY is sticking up for bounties and Gregg Williams!!!! What people here are pissed off about, is that these other stories about other teams are not getting ANY media or league attention, and that idiotic people Like you seem to want to come here and smugly lecture Saints fans about morality and ethics, as if WE were the ones who were paying the bounties. News flash. We are not small children. We don't need you to come here and spank us and smugly lecture to us. And yet you're acting LIKE WE ARE the ones who paid the bounties and told the players to target the ACL! Come on, get a clue, man!

Links on the net? That's your evidence?


Wow, just wow.


I understand not wanting to take a stand because other Saint fans might bash you, for some respect is hard to acquire. But for the love of GOD I don't see why at least a few men here wouldn't have the balls to speak out for what happened here.

If it happened on every other team it still wouldn't change a thing. GW and your head coach should never work in the NFL again. EVER! That would be a good start. Nip this crap in the bud before it gets out of hand. I sure expected better from the Saints.

Where were you in January when this story broke? Oh that's right, I can see by your join date on the left, you WEREN'T here. Virtually everybody in this forum and every Saints fan I know on Facebook or in person, has already spoken out about it -- believe me, people were horrified and outraged. It doesn't change the fact that you are STILL acting like WE were the ones who were paying the bounties or were supporting it. We are not small children. Thank you for stopping by to deliver the smug morality lesson, but we don't need it, we've already been there and done that. Thank you so much for coming here and spanking us and making us stand in the corner like little children, we really needed that.

PatMcIrish, like rat99, read. Try reading around here.
No Real Saints ' fans here and around think, hey this was ok.
SB when GWilliams said to media about giving PManning " don't forget me hits " was NOT funny, fun. It was not ok. No one here thought it was funny esp when the Saints had so much on the line. Being the unfavored team. Not being called the legit team. Knowing the league and PTB (powers that be) wanted Old Brett there against PM. Ratings. Money. Match up.

Everyone here is outraged.
No one here is giving Saints a pass.

Ok, did you READ this?
Now, you must learn comprehension skills.
I think problem is that you and rat99 do not have comprehension skills.
That is a big problem with the school children taking the state tests . Many read well enough. They are on tasks with their reading skills, but they cannot comprehend. That is the other half of reading.
Everything is reading. The Math problems are all word problems.

Pat, rat99,
use your RUBIES.
R-read
U-underline
B-
I-
E-
S-

Ok, off my rant.

I hope you understand now.
No one here is saying the Saints should be given a pass if the other teams on record are given a pass.
We are saying, other teams should be punished as well. They are on record.
Hey, I get it though. Saints, small market, no powerful owner, team that got there that was never to make it to the big prize got there and blew out wrong teams and people namely Old Man Brett and PM, ehhh, not good for business.
I get that.
I also get player safety is number one.
Like I said in previous posts, this is a bandaid effect.

People like you and Belicheck is that you don't accept the Saint's punishments no more than we do. Opposite reasons.
Saints' fans think it is too severe and other teams slipped under radar even though they are on record. Ok, Saints ' punishment is done. A done deal. We Saints' fans think it is too severe and other teams on record have slipped by, but now I am thinking, fine. Take this punishment with no appeals.
Fess up. Be the bigger person, team.
Take your bitter pil and chew it. Savor it.
Done. Maybe it is good , a real favor from the league by giving the Saint's the worst puinshment ever in NFL history.
No other fans and teams cannot say the Saints' got no fair punishment for wrong doing.

However, it seems people like you , Belicheck, Colts fans, Falcons fans, other fans wont' be satisfied until Saint's SB is recalled and Saints' team is disbanned.
That aint' happening!!!
Saint's won SB and that season fair and square. They also lost games fair and square too.
Saints' franchise is not going anywhere.


I just hope and pray these Saints' players and coaching staff comes out fighting this year.
Go for broke!
Play every game as if it is a Playoff game or SB. Put up and shut up the rest of the league.
When you get in a situation like this, there is no place to go but up.
Sorry Coach Spags inherited this, but then, I am glad he is the man to have inherited this.
For his career record this can be a good thing. He can add savior to his record. Turn this thing around.

A couple fair points, I am new so haven't read what everyone has posted, maybe some did step up to the plate. Since I got here though and reading it lately it's mostly crying about other teams doing the same thing, it being no big deal, and that Goodall is a jerk. Have seen nobody step up and say I'M DISGUSTED WITH THE SAINTS AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE!!!

Also, since more information is coming out then opinions will change. Just because you said something in January doesn't mean that opinion will be the same. As information is obtained then opinions can/will change as well. So what I posted here is new, this just happened. Not the whole issue but all these details about going for ACL's and trying to injure specific players was something I wasn't aware of.

In the end I have to say both SP and GW should not ever coach again. You get young kids right out of college and these are the coaches that are trying to shape their career? They're really trying to make the NFL more about hurting guys then trying to win legally? That's my beef, I'm afraid this crap will catch on, as a fan I would be clear to anyone that listens I'm not okay with it.

And BTW I'm not sure your ring should be taken away. I doubt the NFL does that although there is talk of "everything still being on the table". This latest stuff was done when the team knew very clearly an investigation was in order. Both GW and SP should pay the ultimate price, this goes beyond arrogance.

Take your ring away? Naw. Although some will look at you guys winning it much differently now, me included. Nor do I want to see the team disbanded or anything else, just think both SP and GW should never coach again in the NFL. A clear and powerful message should be sent here. If proof of other teams doing it then the same measures should apply.

LOL! Some people...

The only person truly implicated in this is Gregg Williams. I agree, he should be banned for life. But Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis ordered Williams to halt whatever he was doing on multiple occasions and he ignored them. Also, just because a lunatic coach calls for going after an ACL doesn't mean a single player in that room would have done it. In fact, they didn't. That's what is bothering us as fans. The assumption by those of you who that Payton knowingly took part in this, which is beyond stupid and I can't believe he would ever condone it, and the assumption that players actually took part by performing the acts. There is no evidence that any player actively tried to injure another player. Note I said injure, because ALL players try to hurt other players on every play.

Hey Pat how's life in Minneapolis these days?

And btw, no one here has ever said this was justified. We are pointing out that other teams do this sh*t!

Ravens
Titans
Redskins
Giants

just to name a few verifiable ones.

What on earth are you talking about? It's completely obvious from the context of the article that this was a strategy that was talked about IN TEAM MEETINGS of the Giants. This was a strategy that was pursued by the coaches. And by the way, Tim Hasslebeck said this on Twitter yesterday: "...speeches like that can be heard across the league. sounds brutal outside the boundaries of a teams facility, but it's the standard."

And also this:

"...in light (of) the gregg williams audio. i don't think i was ever on a team where a coach didn't mention an opposing players injury. #reality"

You are not making sense. :rolleyes: You are not thinking rationally. Comprehension skills. Maybe you do not know about GW.
GW is not on the Saints' staff.
He was. Saints', ehhh, reading between the lines, let GW go but let him go when he had a good out. GW seemed to have been fired from the Saints but resigned at the same time. One of those deals. Save face. This was after the big SF playoff lost in which the offense came back and bcak and caught back up. Defense , led by GW, did not win. The bountygate thing broke out after the 2011 year was over. Hmmmm seems to me , maye, perhpas reading between the lines, Saints' were informed by Goodell some time ago. We know it has been a investigation for awhile. You don't know of something like this from Goodell overnight.

No, it happening on all other 31 teams would not change the fact, FACT , Saints ' then coach GW did this. Sean P knew and stopped him or did not know GW still did this. I do not know when Sean P knew and what he knew. He did issue a statement to Saints' fans, NFL, football fans, and the to Saint's organization.

For the love of GOD, I do not why you cannot understand this.
Fans here have spoken out. For the umpteeth time, no one is saying this was ok. It was not ok. Thank GOD the Saints, for proof that this bounty was just awful talk, no one can deny, esp. Saints' fans, that the Saints defense has played so-so to poorly. The offense carried the team. Thank God no other teams, as proof for the Saints had players injured , carted off, etc. by Saints. Well, actutally the Saints had one NFL man carted off and in surgery the next day. The man is crippled for life. He has pins, rods and will be able to detect rain coming. That is their own Saint's Coach Sean Payton because the Saints' placed a nasty, illegal hit on him.
Thank God, as proof for the Saints' bountygate was just awful talk, the defense over all these years was not a high ranking defense.
Saints offense has been consistent.

GW is a small fry really. He was a Def. coach, but wasn't a HC. Sean Payton is the big fish here. The head caoch. The boss.
If Benson fired SP after this season , well, SP is not coaching this year anyway, no big deal. There are many teams that would glady take him on as HC. Fans of that team would accept him too.
It is all about the money, honey.:mrgreen: W's vs. L's.

This bounty thing has been nipped in the bud and has gotten out of hand. NFL gave Saint's organization worst and most severe punishment ever. It is still being talked about. I , yeah, being a Saints' fan, consider it over and done. What else can be done? It has been done. The punishments have been handed down.
Belicheck was on NFL Net today saying how sick to his stomach was he when he heard that audio. Umm, Belicheck the cheater is not a very moral NFL man. Murder is ok in the NFL. Drugs are fine. Dog fighting, I cannot even go there.

Oh lets go really someplace really bad. JoPa had a funeral out of this world and he knew of child, CHILD molestation by Sandusky. I know this is not the NFL, but still. Joe Paterno had PennU fans, alumi then and now still hailing him a hero. Yes, great football coach on the field. Off the field, a very immoral man. You have to have it both ways of the saying the bad and the ugly. Sandusky, correct me.,but um, charges were thrown out, reduced the other day. CHILD SEUXAL ABUSE. Bountygate talk vs. this sin that took place for years and years with many powerful on the inside knowing , a sin against nature, God and children, the innocents.
Which is a moral matter here?

In the greater sceam of things NFL, NCAA, bountygate was some really stupid, awful , disgusting talk that was never really, THANK GOD, implemented.
Thank God Saints' never had a person like Shu on defense.

Pat, I'll step up and say that when this broke, I was horrified and hated Gregg Williams even more. I agree that he should never coach again because he's too dangerous of a coach and he's not even a very good one after teams figure his defense out. If the players actually did try to injure other players, then I'm ashamed of that too.

HOWEVER. I stand behind my team in rain or shine. I do not support the bounty system. I support the New Orleans Saints. Because I was here for seasons when we lost games in double digits. I was here when we made it to the playoffs only to fall short in the first game. I was here when we finally won that game, and got thrashed in the next one. I was here for a 3-13 season when the Saints were homeless, playing home games in Tiger Stadium and San Antonio. I was here when the Saints returned home to a loving crowd to reopen the Louisiana Superdome. I was here when we made it to the NFC Championship Game, and once again fell short. I was here when we went 13-0. I was here as we all chewed our fingernails watching the 2009 NFC Championship Game. And I was here as we all celebrating being crowned World Champions. I was born a Saints fan, and I'll die a Saints fan. Who Dat Forever.

Similarly, where is the clear evidence that Saints players did actually play with the intention to maim etc (regardless what Gregg Williams was or was not instructing). And by extension where is the clear evidence that the Saints Head Coach and The Sants General Manager sanctioned or even knew of a "plan" to maim?

Still waiting for an answer, Pat.

:rolleyes:

Great thing is Pat you don't have to be a fan of the Saints. As people have stated on this board, nobody has come out and said what Williams did was okay, but to be ignorant and think this isn't wide spread is foolish. Let me tell you something Pat, as a person who played ball I was ALWAYS going out to hurt the other guy. My intention wasn't to kill them, rather to rattle them and yes knock them out of the game if possible. That is how the game is played. Pat big hits are glorified for a reason.
Enjoy the season as a bucs fan Pat. You'll still be at the bottom of the heap though because Freeman is overrated!

It was predominant.

It comes down to it they were told to stop and they didn't, plain and simple. Oh yeah and they LIED !!!!!!!

Ever seen the movie 12 Angry Men? The "I kill ya" scene? No? Check it out.. great movie...

Since you are so big on "clear evidence", could you please show us the clear evidence of any Saints player doing what Gregg Williams asked them to do in that game? Because what I remember from that game, is the Whiners putting the hurt on the Saints, not the other way around. Maybe the Whiners pay better bounties... they have a history of handing out envelopes with cash in them..

Heck, one could argue, the 2010 and 2011 defenses were so bad, it probably was because the Saints refused to do what Williams asked them to do: How come they didn't take out Marshawn Lynch? How come Smith, and Davis, and Crabtree were there with 1 and a half minutes to go in the game, and looked very healthy slicing and dicing the Saints defense?

And please, stop it with this "The Saints are the only ones doing it because we have no evidence to the contrary". Either you are trying to provoke people, or you really don't know the game you watch. Oh, and I am pretty sure NFL Films has some good material as far as locker room speeches go (or maybe had, and have been busy destroying it to prevent it from being used against them in current and upcoming lawsuits... the NFL has a history of conveniently destroying evidence too)

No not some Pat, you won't find a saints fan here thats defending what we did was right................................................................................................................................................................................................... ........................................................................................................................................................................................................ ........................................................................................................................................................................................................ ...............................................................................................................................................let me let that sink....................................................... .............................................................................................in.....................................................................
........................................................................................................................................................................................................ ................................................................................................................................................................
Because you where told this many times.

The only one crying on this board is you. To have your opinions adopted by us, and thats not going to happen, because your not listening to our fans opinions, or giving us the time of day of what we think. Try to be more objective next time, and treat us like we would treat you on your board as a curtsy , and you will get a lot of respect here.
This is a great board with good moderators, so you will be given many chances.

But saying SP should never coach again is pretty off the charts.

Hey guys, thanks for the posts. After reading the comments it does sound like most of you were not happy with what went down, props for that. My bad for assuming without having all the facts.

I read several places though where opposing fans (of course we know they'd never lie ;)) summed up what the Saint fans were saying as none of them were taking responsibility, all of them were blaming any and everyone else, and that you were making your team out to be the victim in all this.

That coupled with me for the first time hearing that link I posted in the original post started to make me wonder. Started to make me angry at GW. I've always read this board, posted under Patrick McIrish but lost my password years ago, probably been here since it started.

I say that to make the point I do consider myself a Saints fan. Not my primary team, but certainly 2nd favorite. When you won the ring I was happy as hell, you guys repped the NFC South in a fine manner. The area as well.

I have a 2nd residence in Harrison county, Biloxi. Obviously I know and hang out with lot of Saint fans. Won't ever root for you when you play the Bucs, I can't do that, the rest of the time I do though.

In short, I was pissed off as how you guys were being labeled, I wanted to hear what you guys had to say for myself. And after getting here I have to say what other fans have said don't seem to be true.

Yes, A few are still acting the "victim", most seem to have a more mature look at what went on though. Props to you all for that. And while I still don't agree with all the points made here some do indeed hold merit. Carry on.

Excellent post, one of the best I've read.

And trust me as a fan of the Bucs (0-26) if there's anyone who can relate to "taking the journey" as a loyal fan it is your NFC South counterparts. Long road for us, went from the worst of all time to not just winning, but dominating in the SuperBowl, will always be proud of that team just as you guys should be of yours. In short, I can relate to what you posted, well said.

NFC South baby!

Always a few that miss the point. Unless making solid points is trying to provoke you, once again you miss the mark. It has nothing to do with what you *think* other teams are doing!? It doesn't matter how long you want to beat on the podium and claim you guys are the victims here, it's simply not true. Be a man, admit your organization made some horrendous mistakes and move on. This attempt at minimizing what you've done makes you look bad.

Even if other teams have/had bounty systems in place (which I seriously doubt) it doesn't change anything to do with you guys. I kill my neighbor, a defense of "well two other guys in the neighborhood are murderers as well" just does not cut the mustard! Quit using the "everyone else is doing it" excuse, it plays very badly to intelligent ears. You're the kind of poster that the other fans are talking about, a fan that wants to blame any and everyone else other than the guilty parties!

As for SP, I'm sorry as I know this is a big one we will disagree on but he's just as guilty as GW was in my book. For one thing nobody will ever tell me he didn't know about it. That's not possible. I've played the game, guys talk, guys get excited, guys are going to be fired up about this bounty thing. Players, coaches and everyone else involved aren't going to be under a long-term conspiracy to keep it a secret from the head coach. That's just silly talk.

But even if in the one in a million shot Sean was so blind about what was going on with this team he had no idea, it wouldn't matter. My college gets hit with recruiting violations then the head coach takes it up the rectum as well. That's how it works. Sean hired this guy, he's ultimately responsible for what goes on under his watch. To accept the good things, rings and so on from your DC, but immediately disqualify yourself when things go wrong is ridiculous.

I thin k the NFL is not being unfair. Our punishment is a little harsh on sP and Loomis but besides that we deserve everything we get. They should be punished. If this happened to the Falcons we would be crying for a lifetime ban. Williams went above and beyond just coaching up our team. There is no room for what he did in the league. I hope they do find he was a rogue coach, but I doubt that was the case. Yes other teams do it, but we got caught.

They have not proven any money changed hands and they didn't lie about it.

The Dude bringing the HEAT!!


Props for being objective. It can be tough when it's your team but try and keep in mind what you would think if it was an opponent. Or if something had happened. I said before but if Brees was taken out after someone like GW did his thing I would be sickened by it! Football is a man's game, you do hit hard, you don't wear skirts, but you don't go out with the mindset you want to injure other players. That was wrong, everyone involved should be punished regardless of who else may or may not be doing the same thing.