Just How is Haz doing ?

BlackandBlue · 04-21-2004, 02:32 PM

Am I in the minority that I believe that the QB should share responsibility of the outcome of a game??? Sounds like too many of the new guys feel as if it should all fall on the shoulders of the coach only.

SaintsReporter · 04-21-2004, 02:37 PM

Am I in the minority that I believe that the QB should share responsibility of the outcome of a game???

What minority would that be? Blacks, Hispanics, gays?? LOL J/K.

Sure they share some responsibility. But IMO, not as much as the coach.

BlackandBlue · 04-21-2004, 02:53 PM

I understand that, but there has been sentiment where it seems that some are ready to give AB a free pass.

WhoDat · 04-21-2004, 02:58 PM

I\'m not saying that Brooks is consistently inconsistant. I\'m saying the QB is hurt more by other players being consistently inconsistent. For example: A guard misses a block on the line. Who does it affect more? Probably the QB. A receiver misses a perfectly thown ball. Who does it affect most? Probably the QB. Get the picture??

Hhhmm. Does Deuce not run almost as much as Brooks attempts a pass? I mean, Deuce is the bread and butter of our offense right? Blocking at the line doesn\'t affect him? Poor downfield blocking doesn\'t affect him? A QB who doesn\'t audible out of bad formations or play calls doesn\'t affect him? There\'s no doubt that the QB can be negatively impacted by the play of his supporting cast. However, the QB can also affect the supporting cast. Much of our offense plays at a pretty high level, so let\'s not get back into the poor AB the martyr talk. I\'m still not over Saintfan saying that Haslett is just a victim of bad luck.

Now, Brooks needs to improve. No doubt about it. The play calling probably could use a little work itself. All in all, I think players are more important than the coach. Although, I do believe coaching is more important today than say maybe 10 years ago. Still, I believe an average coach can get to the super bowl easier with 11 GREAT players, than a great coach with 11- average players.

Hypothetically, you may be right. Of course, that hasn\'t been the case for Washington has it? They loaded up on Pro Bowlers a few years back and continue to pay to get \'great\' players every year. They haven\'t done much, right? What about the Raiders? Their all-stars didn\'t seem so stellar after Gruden left now did they?

Point is, in theory you may have a point but in practice that just isn\'t true... at least not in my experience. Great coaches make the difference in the NFL. Look at the Titans with their AFC Title game team that had zero Pro Bowlers. What about the Patties or Panthers? The Rams of 1999 were about the most stacked team I\'ve seen in a while and they had maybe, MAYBE, 10 great players, and even that is pushing it. In today\'s NFL you don\'t get 11 great players let alone 22. Every team has a few great players and a lot of other players. It\'s the coach that determines how many of those guys play well and how many are average or worse. Coaches turn potential into performance, not the other way around.

Am I in the minority that I believe that the QB should share responsibility of the outcome of a game??? Sounds like too many of the new guys feel as if it should all fall on the shoulders of the coach only.

No, the QB should be responsible too, given the circumstance. I wouldn\'t have fired Archie for the team\'s poor play. On the flip side, if Archie had the talent this team has now and the Saints continued to play like they have been both he and whoever the coach was would be on their butts.

SaintsReporter · 04-21-2004, 03:03 PM

I understand that, but there has been sentiment where it seems that some are ready to give AB a free pass.

Nobody deserves a free pass. But, I feel the QB shouldn\'t be held to any higher of a standard than any other position. Really, I belive the QB\'s success is more dependent of the 10-other guys on the field than any other position.

While I do believe this is a TOTAL team game, the QB gets too much credit and too much blame. Can anyone really say on a play by play basis when it was Brooks fault and when it was ANYONE elses fault? As fans we see what we see on TV. But, that can be deceiving. We miss breakdowns here and there. I know I don\'t watch a game like a coach who is evaluating individual plays and players. I\'m trying to watch everything.

I think we know Brooks needs to stop fumbling. But, IMO, he made terrific strides last year. As a TEAM we went backwards though.

SaintsReporter · 04-21-2004, 03:14 PM

Hhhmm. Does Deuce not run almost as much as Brooks attempts a pass? I mean, Deuce is the bread and butter of our offense right? Blocking at the line doesn\'t affect him? Poor downfield blocking doesn\'t affect him? A QB who doesn\'t audible out of bad formations or play calls doesn\'t affect him? There\'s no doubt that the QB can be negatively impacted by the play of his supporting cast. However, the QB can also affect the supporting cast. Much of our offense plays at a pretty high level, so let\'s not get back into the poor AB the martyr talk. I\'m still not over Saintfan saying that Haslett is just a victim of bad luck.

Of course Deuce is affected by the other players on the offense. However, not to the degree that the QB is. Everything is run through Brooks. And I mean everything. Deuce, while important, doesn\'t have the pressure that any starting QB faces every week. When is the last time you tuned into sports center and heard them pin a loss on the running back? Not often.

My main point has been that with all the incosistency at the other 10-positions on offense that Brooks has gotten too much blame. The key phraise being: \"too much\".

[Edited on 21/4/2004 by SaintsReporter]

saintfan · 04-21-2004, 04:49 PM

I\'m still not over Saintfan saying that Haslett is just a victim of bad luck.

Saintfan never said that. Saintfan said bad luck was a factor. Now, go back to trying to convince someone else who CAN see the forest for the trees that your anti Brooks agenda rings true. I\'m sitting this one out \'til needed -- I\'ll be warming up in the bullpen if anyone needs me.

:P

WhoDat · 04-21-2004, 07:17 PM

Whimp!

OK SR - but you\'re saying that missed blocks hurt Brooks. They lead to what? Sacks, pressure, fumbles, knock downs, a need to leave the pocket... right? What do missed blocks lead to for Deuce? The same thing - only difference is that a QB is trained to run away while Deuce is going to take a guy head on. Either way, their ability to execute a play is hindered. A breakdown in the blocking scheme hurts each player equally - differently maybe, but it hurts each just as bad.

When is the last time you tuned into sports center and heard them pin a loss on the running back? Not often.

True, and a valid point. However, I have heard losses pinned on a lack of a running game, lack of a passing game, poor receiver play, inability to stop the run, inability to stop the pass, special teams... etc.

The only reason that a QB is different is that in passing downs, he has to deliver the ball in order to make the play work. Sure the receivers have to get open, the line has to block, but unlike basically any other position there is one part of the play that is ENTIRELY up to him. He has to get the ball there. I\'ve seen a whole lot of offensive lines blamed for losses b/c their QB was getting smeared (Washington, Houston). However, if a line blocks well, the receivers get open, and the QB throws a ball that is off target, the blame is his and his alone. I haven\'t seen a whole lot of Saints games where AB did not have the ability to step up in the pocket and make a throw. Our line is generally pretty good, and our receivers have been as well.

saintz08 · 04-21-2004, 07:27 PM

My main point has been that with all the incosistency at the other 10-positions on offense that Brooks has gotten too much blame. The key phraise being: \"too much\".

Here is the post that brings Saintsfan out of the bullpen .

Brooks can be tied into alot of the inconsistency of the offense . Some already know what I am talking about .

When the starting quarterback is the former 3rd string pine rider in Green Bay , incosistency is an allowable in the offensive design ....

Boogro · 04-21-2004, 07:39 PM

First of all, our defense gave up an average of 140 yds a game. That\'s just terrible. You can\'t put all of the losses on Brooks\' shoulders. The year before, our defense gave up at least 20 pts. a game.

I remember a missed block by Conwell and led to a Panthers stop and a Deuce fumble on fourth down in overtime. I still think it was a good decision because we didn\'t stop Stephen Davis all day.

I also remember Joe Horn missing a touchdown pass right in his hands against Tampa Bay (leading 7-0) at the end of the first half. Then Brooks goes down field and fumbles and Tampa scores two touchdowns before halftime. Instead of being up 14-0, we were down 14-7 and lost.

I remember Brooks running down field to make a key block on that crazy play against Jacksonville and Carney missed the PAT.

Reasons why we played bad:

1. Didn\'t stop the run

2. Inconsistent WR play

3. No TE help in first half of season

4. Injury plagued defense

5. Terrible special teams play (except for Berger)

Now, do I put ALL of the blame on Brooks, absolutely not.

04-21-2004, 02:32 PM	#31
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Just How is Haz doing ? Am I in the minority that I believe that the QB should share responsibility of the outcome of a game??? Sounds like too many of the new guys feel as if it should all fall on the shoulders of the coach only.

04-21-2004, 02:37 PM	#32
SaintsReporter Registered Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 82	Just How is Haz doing ? Am I in the minority that I believe that the QB should share responsibility of the outcome of a game??? What minority would that be? Blacks, Hispanics, gays?? LOL J/K. Sure they share some responsibility. But IMO, not as much as the coach.
SaintsReporter Registered Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 82

04-21-2004, 02:53 PM	#33
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Just How is Haz doing ? I understand that, but there has been sentiment where it seems that some are ready to give AB a free pass.

04-21-2004, 02:58 PM	#34
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Just How is Haz doing ? I\'m not saying that Brooks is consistently inconsistant. I\'m saying the QB is hurt more by other players being consistently inconsistent. For example: A guard misses a block on the line. Who does it affect more? Probably the QB. A receiver misses a perfectly thown ball. Who does it affect most? Probably the QB. Get the picture?? Hhhmm. Does Deuce not run almost as much as Brooks attempts a pass? I mean, Deuce is the bread and butter of our offense right? Blocking at the line doesn\'t affect him? Poor downfield blocking doesn\'t affect him? A QB who doesn\'t audible out of bad formations or play calls doesn\'t affect him? There\'s no doubt that the QB can be negatively impacted by the play of his supporting cast. However, the QB can also affect the supporting cast. Much of our offense plays at a pretty high level, so let\'s not get back into the poor AB the martyr talk. I\'m still not over Saintfan saying that Haslett is just a victim of bad luck. Now, Brooks needs to improve. No doubt about it. The play calling probably could use a little work itself. All in all, I think players are more important than the coach. Although, I do believe coaching is more important today than say maybe 10 years ago. Still, I believe an average coach can get to the super bowl easier with 11 GREAT players, than a great coach with 11- average players. Hypothetically, you may be right. Of course, that hasn\'t been the case for Washington has it? They loaded up on Pro Bowlers a few years back and continue to pay to get \'great\' players every year. They haven\'t done much, right? What about the Raiders? Their all-stars didn\'t seem so stellar after Gruden left now did they? Point is, in theory you may have a point but in practice that just isn\'t true... at least not in my experience. Great coaches make the difference in the NFL. Look at the Titans with their AFC Title game team that had zero Pro Bowlers. What about the Patties or Panthers? The Rams of 1999 were about the most stacked team I\'ve seen in a while and they had maybe, MAYBE, 10 great players, and even that is pushing it. In today\'s NFL you don\'t get 11 great players let alone 22. Every team has a few great players and a lot of other players. It\'s the coach that determines how many of those guys play well and how many are average or worse. Coaches turn potential into performance, not the other way around. Am I in the minority that I believe that the QB should share responsibility of the outcome of a game??? Sounds like too many of the new guys feel as if it should all fall on the shoulders of the coach only. No, the QB should be responsible too, given the circumstance. I wouldn\'t have fired Archie for the team\'s poor play. On the flip side, if Archie had the talent this team has now and the Saints continued to play like they have been both he and whoever the coach was would be on their butts.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

04-21-2004, 03:03 PM	#35
SaintsReporter Registered Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 82	Just How is Haz doing ? I understand that, but there has been sentiment where it seems that some are ready to give AB a free pass. Nobody deserves a free pass. But, I feel the QB shouldn\'t be held to any higher of a standard than any other position. Really, I belive the QB\'s success is more dependent of the 10-other guys on the field than any other position. While I do believe this is a TOTAL team game, the QB gets too much credit and too much blame. Can anyone really say on a play by play basis when it was Brooks fault and when it was ANYONE elses fault? As fans we see what we see on TV. But, that can be deceiving. We miss breakdowns here and there. I know I don\'t watch a game like a coach who is evaluating individual plays and players. I\'m trying to watch everything. I think we know Brooks needs to stop fumbling. But, IMO, he made terrific strides last year. As a TEAM we went backwards though.
SaintsReporter Registered Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 82

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04-21-2004, 03:14 PM	#36
SaintsReporter Registered Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 82	Just How is Haz doing ? Hhhmm. Does Deuce not run almost as much as Brooks attempts a pass? I mean, Deuce is the bread and butter of our offense right? Blocking at the line doesn\'t affect him? Poor downfield blocking doesn\'t affect him? A QB who doesn\'t audible out of bad formations or play calls doesn\'t affect him? There\'s no doubt that the QB can be negatively impacted by the play of his supporting cast. However, the QB can also affect the supporting cast. Much of our offense plays at a pretty high level, so let\'s not get back into the poor AB the martyr talk. I\'m still not over Saintfan saying that Haslett is just a victim of bad luck. Of course Deuce is affected by the other players on the offense. However, not to the degree that the QB is. Everything is run through Brooks. And I mean everything. Deuce, while important, doesn\'t have the pressure that any starting QB faces every week. When is the last time you tuned into sports center and heard them pin a loss on the running back? Not often. My main point has been that with all the incosistency at the other 10-positions on offense that Brooks has gotten too much blame. The key phraise being: \"too much\". [Edited on 21/4/2004 by SaintsReporter]
SaintsReporter Registered Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 82

04-21-2004, 04:49 PM	#37
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Just How is Haz doing ? I\'m still not over Saintfan saying that Haslett is just a victim of bad luck. Saintfan never said that. Saintfan said bad luck was a factor. Now, go back to trying to convince someone else who CAN see the forest for the trees that your anti Brooks agenda rings true. I\'m sitting this one out \'til needed -- I\'ll be warming up in the bullpen if anyone needs me. :P

04-21-2004, 07:17 PM	#38
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Just How is Haz doing ? Whimp! OK SR - but you\'re saying that missed blocks hurt Brooks. They lead to what? Sacks, pressure, fumbles, knock downs, a need to leave the pocket... right? What do missed blocks lead to for Deuce? The same thing - only difference is that a QB is trained to run away while Deuce is going to take a guy head on. Either way, their ability to execute a play is hindered. A breakdown in the blocking scheme hurts each player equally - differently maybe, but it hurts each just as bad. When is the last time you tuned into sports center and heard them pin a loss on the running back? Not often. True, and a valid point. However, I have heard losses pinned on a lack of a running game, lack of a passing game, poor receiver play, inability to stop the run, inability to stop the pass, special teams... etc. The only reason that a QB is different is that in passing downs, he has to deliver the ball in order to make the play work. Sure the receivers have to get open, the line has to block, but unlike basically any other position there is one part of the play that is ENTIRELY up to him. He has to get the ball there. I\'ve seen a whole lot of offensive lines blamed for losses b/c their QB was getting smeared (Washington, Houston). However, if a line blocks well, the receivers get open, and the QB throws a ball that is off target, the blame is his and his alone. I haven\'t seen a whole lot of Saints games where AB did not have the ability to step up in the pocket and make a throw. Our line is generally pretty good, and our receivers have been as well.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

04-21-2004, 07:27 PM	#39
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Just How is Haz doing ? My main point has been that with all the incosistency at the other 10-positions on offense that Brooks has gotten too much blame. The key phraise being: \"too much\". Here is the post that brings Saintsfan out of the bullpen . Brooks can be tied into alot of the inconsistency of the offense . Some already know what I am talking about . When the starting quarterback is the former 3rd string pine rider in Green Bay , incosistency is an allowable in the offensive design ....
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

04-21-2004, 07:39 PM	#40
Boogro Nose Digger Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 341	Just How is Haz doing ? First of all, our defense gave up an average of 140 yds a game. That\'s just terrible. You can\'t put all of the losses on Brooks\' shoulders. The year before, our defense gave up at least 20 pts. a game. I remember a missed block by Conwell and led to a Panthers stop and a Deuce fumble on fourth down in overtime. I still think it was a good decision because we didn\'t stop Stephen Davis all day. I also remember Joe Horn missing a touchdown pass right in his hands against Tampa Bay (leading 7-0) at the end of the first half. Then Brooks goes down field and fumbles and Tampa scores two touchdowns before halftime. Instead of being up 14-0, we were down 14-7 and lost. I remember Brooks running down field to make a key block on that crazy play against Jacksonville and Carney missed the PAT. Reasons why we played bad: 1. Didn\'t stop the run 2. Inconsistent WR play 3. No TE help in first half of season 4. Injury plagued defense 5. Terrible special teams play (except for Berger) Now, do I put ALL of the blame on Brooks, absolutely not.