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Just How is Haz doing ?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; OK SR - but you\'re saying that missed blocks hurt Brooks. They lead to what? Sacks, pressure, fumbles, knock downs, a need to leave the pocket... right? What do missed blocks lead to for Deuce? The same thing - only ...

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Old 04-21-2004, 09:06 PM   #41
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Just How is Haz doing ?

OK SR - but you\'re saying that missed blocks hurt Brooks. They lead to what? Sacks, pressure, fumbles, knock downs, a need to leave the pocket... right? What do missed blocks lead to for Deuce? The same thing - only difference is that a QB is trained to run away while Deuce is going to take a guy head on. Either way, their ability to execute a play is hindered. A breakdown in the blocking scheme hurts each player equally - differently maybe, but it hurts each just as bad.
I\'m going to have to disagree with you there WhoDat and here\'s why. The passing game is more about timing than the running game. So, missed blocks are more critical to the QB than the running back. Not to say that running backs don\'t require solid blocking up front.

You got all those big nasty D-linemen and the number ONE thing on their mind is hitting the QB ----- HARD!! Even if they don\'t get to the QB, it still affects the timing and patterns a receiver runs.

Let me say this also. I keep hearing all this talk about Deuce being \"the man\" in this offense. While I love Deuce, the passing game has been what\'s put the points on the board the last few years. To the best of my knowledge, Brooks has been \"the man\" under center making that passing game go.

It\'s no big secret that the QB takes most of the blame for the losses, most of the time. Sometimes the QB is most to blame. But, most Saints fans are typical in that they want to place to much blame on Brooks.

We all form our opinions based on what we see on TV. How accurate do you think we as fans are based on that? TV only shows so much and I have to wonder how many missed assignments we don\'t see. I don\'t know about you but I sure would like to sit in on a film evaluation session with the coaches and see what they see. I think it would really be an eye opening experience. One thing I believe in is admitting that my opinion as a fan is based off of a lot of things that I don\'t have access to.


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Old 04-21-2004, 09:56 PM   #42
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Just How is Haz doing ?

Let me say this also. I keep hearing all this talk about Deuce being \"the man\" in this offense. While I love Deuce, the passing game has been what\'s put the points on the board the last few years. To the best of my knowledge, Brooks has been \"the man\" under center making that passing game go.

and now i have to disagree with you SR..... and i really have only one thing to say, while the passing game might put up a few points on the board, if you cant run the football in the NFL u have slim chance of winning, as im sure my partner whodat will also attest too. a few years ago our offense was avg almost 30 points a game for the first 8 games of the season, then deuce got hurt (sprained ankle), over the next 8 games our avg dropped to around 15. while i dont think AB is all that bad, he is not the leader of this team and deuce is the offense, with out deuce, we would have no chance of winning b/c the running game dictates the flow of the game

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Old 04-21-2004, 10:05 PM   #43
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Just How is Haz doing ?

and now i have to disagree with you SR..... and i really have only one thing to say, while the passing game might put up a few points on the board, if you cant run the football in the NFL u have slim chance of winning, as im sure my partner whodat will also attest too. a few years ago our offense was avg almost 30 points a game for the first 8 games of the season, then deuce got hurt (sprained ankle), over the next 8 games our avg dropped to around 15. while i dont think AB is all that bad, he is not the leader of this team and deuce is the offense, with out deuce, we would have no chance of winning b/c the running game dictates the flow of the game
Interesting pakowitz. Although not factual. The passing game did not put a FEW points on the board as you put it. They put MOST of the points on the board. Also, you talk about Deuce getting hurt and the point production slipping, but you left out the fact that Brooks was hurt also.

I also disagree with you about winning without Deuce. The Pats did just fine wihout a dominate running game. I beleive Tampa did likewise a couple of years ago. Running the ball is important, but like Ron Jawrorski likes to say \" Points come outta the passing game.\"

[Edited on 22/4/2004 by SaintsReporter]
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Old 04-21-2004, 10:37 PM   #44
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Just How is Haz doing ?

Interesting pakowitz. Although not factual. The passing game did not put a FEW points on the board as you put it. They put MOST of the points on the board. Also, you talk about Deuce getting hurt and the point production slipping, but you left out the fact that Brooks was hurt also.
brooks did get injured, but only for the final 4 games and yes the passing game put up more points then the running game, but it was the running game that got the offense down the field into scoring position. oh and deuce is just one man, while AB has 4-5 guys he can throw to on every passing play.

also disagree with you about winning without Deuce. The Pats did just fine wihout a dominate running game. I beleive Tampa did likewise a couple of years ago. Running the ball is important, but like Ron Jawrorski likes to say \" Points come outta the passing game.\"
thats true, the pats did fine as well as tampa, they both won super bowls, but they won with defense, not offense. they had the best defenses in the league in both of their superbowl winning years, respectivly. we do not have a Defense of their caliber not this year and not next year, not with this coaching staff at the helm.........


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Old 04-21-2004, 11:40 PM   #45
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Just How is Haz doing ?

I also disagree with you about winning without Deuce. The Pats did just fine wihout a dominate running game. I beleive Tampa did likewise a couple of years ago. Running the ball is important, but like Ron Jawrorski likes to say \" Points come outta the passing game.\"
Points come out of the passing game , this was meant for quarterbacks other then Brooks ... Bold statement , let me sell it ....

Any defensive coordinator worth a hill of beans is going to figure an opposing teams trends and most importantly the individual players trends . The Rams years ago had a problem they never even new about in a player named Pat Haden , until too Tall Jones made it quite evident on national television . Hadens career was short lived after that moment . Now onto offensive coordinators, the same holds true to them , any offensive coordinator worth a hill of beans is going to play to the strengths and call plays around the weaknesses .

Here comes the point to focus on :

Game 1 in the 2003 season .

McCarthy comes out with an attempt on the high powered offense , that the previous Saints had been known for , one catch , he is up against Ray Rhodes who has had all off season to study this high powered offense .Rhodes despite being without a starting corner , shuts the Saints passing game down .

Rhodes focuses on Brooks , despite Brooks arm strength and accuracy he is limited to throwing to stopped route receivers . Brooks is not as accurate with the fly patterns and the post routes and is uncomfortable throwing them . The passing trends of Brooks have been defended , Rhodes gives the orders , Corners play up and for the stop routes and focus on the underneath routes . Force Brooks to beat us deep and punish the receivers ...

This is the first and last time in the 2003 season Brooks will attempt 40 passes .

The remaining games McCarthy relys on Duece and the play action pass to open things up for Brooks . Although Brooks will find his game against teams that want to play the Saints in a soft cover 2 , McCarthy will have to pound Deuce to open the field for Brooks .....

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:04 AM   #46
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Just How is Haz doing ?

saintz08,

I think the point that you\'re trying to make is that Brooks\' game is so weak that any coach that is worth his salt can successfully scheme to stop Brooks. The only conclusion that I can come to is there MIGHT be SOME truth to that. Let\'s explore it a little further, shall we?

Your key statement to back up your theory seems to be this one:

Rhodes focuses on Brooks , despite Brooks arm strength and accuracy he is limited to throwing to stopped route receivers .
I\'m assuming since this is the case that our receviers are taught to go to a certain spot and stop and wait for Brooks to throw the ball. IF that IS true then we have to have the most stupid coaches in the NFL. That would sure limit the wide receivers and they would have virtually no YAC. Furthermore, I think this would be a well publicised event in the media and with fans alike. I can only say it doesn\'t seem to be the case to my eyes.

A more plausable theory would be that we have break downs at different positions on far too many plays. For instance:

1. A receiver drops a pass.
2. Someone misses a block.
3. Someone runs the wrong route.
4. Presnap penalties or penalties in general put us in know passing situations and limits our play calling.

There\'s many more I could name. Fan\'s don\'t want to hear it, I know. But, it\'s true none the less.

Now, Brooks has his faults. But, let\'s not overlook the BIG picture.






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Old 04-22-2004, 12:43 AM   #47
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Just How is Haz doing ?

The only conclusion that I can come to is there MIGHT be SOME truth to that. Let\'s explore it a little further, shall we?
Let\'s

The original draft report on Brooks :

1999 Packer Draft: Aaron Brooks, Quarterback
Virginia/ 6:03.2-200/ Newport News, Virginia

What the scouts are saying . . .

AFC scout: \"He\'s not a detail guy. I get the feeling that Brooks isn\'t a worker or a studier. That scares you for a guy who\'s going to get barely any practice reps and will have to learn in the classroom.\"

NFC scout: \"Maybe there\'s some hope for him as a wide receiver. He\'s a great athlete. Horrible quarterback.\"

Or how about comments made by the opposing defense ...

From Earl Little of the Cleveland Browns :

\"We just knew that things were going to be a little different for him because he didn\'t have Deuce,\" Little said. \"At the same time we showed a coverage and would go back to a different coverage. Personally, I didn\'t think he could read that well, so we screwed him up a little bit. He didn\'t read coverages that well.\"

IF that IS true then we have to have the most stupid coaches in the NFL.
Well considering McCarthy has never , ever been anything but a quarterbacks coach in his coaching career and the Saints were his first shot as an offensive coordinator , I might buy that one ....

1. A receiver drops a pass.
2. Someone misses a block.
3. Someone runs the wrong route.
4. Presnap penalties or penalties in general put us in know passing situations and limits our play calling.
1. Believable , considering Brooks throws about 50% of his passes at a receiver shoe strings .
2. Or Brooks runs into a defender . Turleys favorite complaint .
3. Which could be any route that does not put the receiver with his numbers facing Brooks .
4. How limited is a quarterback that has good touch on his passes ?? Montana never seemed to concerned ....



[Edited on 22/4/2004 by saintz08]

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:59 AM   #48
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Just How is Haz doing ?

saintz08,

How much stock do you put in draft reports? Remeber what they said about Ryan Leaf and all the other busts at QB? Then there are all the QB\'s that the draft experts knew were going to be busts who did great. Come on, surely you ain\'t basing a theory on a draft report.

I\'m really trying to keep an open mind to what you have to say, but there seems to be more of an attempt to discredit Brooks without looking at facts or even a well informed opinion. When someone comes telling me what some scout said then, what am I suppose to say? Am I suppose to really put some stock in that?

What I\'m more interested in is why you think our receivers run to a spot and stop. This is a MAJOR story if it\'s true. I\'ll bet ya that if we can prove it that we can get can ESPN to run with this story. I can\'t believe NO ONE else has broke this story. Who knew. I\'ve gotta pay more attention to the games and stop looking at the cheerleaders.





[Edited on 22/4/2004 by SaintsReporter]
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Old 04-22-2004, 01:16 AM   #49
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Just How is Haz doing ?

How much stock do you put in draft reports?
Great , so we will stick to what the players that have lined up on the other side of Brooks and have defended against him have to say ????

From Earl Little of the Cleveland Browns :

\"We just knew that things were going to be a little different for him because he didn\'t have Deuce,\" Little said. \"At the same time we showed a coverage and would go back to a different coverage. Personally, I didn\'t think he could read that well, so we screwed him up a little bit. He didn\'t read coverages that well.\"

What I\'m more interested in is why you think our receivers run to a spot and stop. This is a MAJOR story if it\'s true.
Well feel free to notify E.S.P.N. on your MAJOR story .

Here is a list of pass patterns :

The pass routes or patterns depicted here are numbered as follows.
#0=The Zero or Curl Pass.
#1=5 yard Cross or In.
#2=5 yard Out or Sideline.
#3=10 yard Cross.
#4=10 yard Out.
#5=10 yard Hook or Stop (In).
#6=10 yard Hook (Outside).
#7=Post.
#8=Post Corner.
#9=Fly or Go.

Here is the link :

http://www.eteamz.com/football/instr...ps/tip.cfm/360

Breman is waiting for your call ......




\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo
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Old 04-22-2004, 09:48 AM   #50
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Just How is Haz doing ?

SR, in case you haven\'t figured it out yet, you are posting on a board that is DOMINATED by Brooks bashers. You\'ll find, in the long run, that 08\'s hatred of Brooks stems from his love for Jake Delhomme. Whodat thinks he knows all the answers, and he sees replacing the QB as a quick fix. These guys are using the very same arguments with you that they\'ve used with me for over 2 years now. Ultimately, you can lead a horse to water, as I have, but you can\'t make him drink. Some of these guys don\'t see the big picture because they don\'t WANT to see it.

How much stock do you put in draft reports?
He only puts stock in a draft report if he can spin it in the direction of his Anti-Brooks agenda. Ask him about Jake Delhomme\'s draft report (or how it was that his boy was overlooked in the draft altogether), or ask him to find a similar comparison. He can\'t. He won\'t. It would prove him wrong and expose his agenda yet again. A draft report, as well all know, is not an indictment. If drafting were such an exact science none of us would be watching on Saturday.

Brooks can be tied into alot of the inconsistency of the offense . Some already know what I am talking about .
Horn, Stallworth (when he\'s actually on the field), Lewis, Deuce, everyone of the linemen, and each of the TE\'s -- all these people can ALSO be tied into a lot of the inconsistency of the offense, yet you never speak of it. Rekon why that is? I can spell agenda...can you?

[Edited on 22/4/2004 by saintfan]

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