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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Bellichick didn\'t have more success early in his career. ...and what is there to be said about the Patriots from year before last? What happened to \'em then? The argument WhoDat gave me is they have proved they can do ...

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Old 05-11-2004, 10:38 AM   #31
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

Bellichick didn\'t have more success early in his career. ...and what is there to be said about the Patriots from year before last? What happened to \'em then?
The argument WhoDat gave me is they have proved they can do it so they get the benefit of the doubt. So, until Haslett does it, then he\'s going have folks calling for his head. Used to, fans and ownership were much more patient with a coach and it usually paid off for them. Today coaches are fired at an alarming rate.

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by GumboBC]
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Old 05-11-2004, 11:02 AM   #32
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

Billy, I may be mistaken but I thought WhoDat\'s argument regarding certain coaches (Jimmy Johnson was the example I recall) is not that they get the benefit of the doubt, rather that we have good evidence for their ability to do certain things that we do not have in Haz\'s case. While, in general, I\'m with you guys, I thought this was a decent argument:

1. All teams produce cancers.
2. Some coaches are able to succeed in the face of the cancers.
Therefore, 3. we have evidence that the successful coaches are doing something with the cancers that unsuccessful teams have not (namely controlling them well enought to succeed).

I imagine it follows that Haz has not displayed 2, but Bellichick has. Thus, we can cut Bellichick some slack, since we have reason to believe that either the cancers are too cancerous or he\'ll get it under control. In Haz\'s case, we have no reason to believe that claim. Thus, it is not that Haz has done a bad job here, it is that we cannot evaluate it.

I think after that part of the argument, which I find pretty good, WhoDat will add a list of other things that Haz is failing at and say that we have no evidence that Haz is doing well, but we do have evidence he is doing poorly. This last bit must be what you and Saintfan are criticizing, right?

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 05-11-2004, 11:16 AM   #33
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

JKool --

That was another arguement. First of all, I think this \"cancerous\" player thing has been TOTALLY blown out of porportion by a few members here in an attempt to discredit Haslett. The bottom line is we\'ve had no more problem players shipped out than most other teams.

I do agree with WhoDat on some things. It\'s troubling to me that some areas of need haven\'t been properly addressed. To me, that\'s really the only thing of importance that Haslett has failed at. I think Haslett has failed to bring in the right players on defense and I think that\'s the reason we haven\'t been back to the playoffs the last few years. I\'m going to give Haslett the benefit of the doubt this year, but if our defense fails us, then I\'m going to join those folks in calling for Hasletts job.

What I will NOT do is use just ANY ol\' thing to bash Haslett with. They can keep right on using whatever they come up with, but I\'m going to remain unbiased.

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by GumboBC]
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Old 05-11-2004, 11:27 AM   #34
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

Actually - this whole debate started with OVERWEIGHT players, not CANCEROUS players. I look at the two differently. Saintfan has blamed the players themselves entirely for weight problems in the past. While I don\'t deny that a large part of the responsibility is on them, when a coach has holes at DT for 3 years b/c 6 different DTs he brings in develop weight problems, then he uses two first rounders to draft a DT that promptly blimps up, that MAY be a sign of a problem, and it is on Haslett to keep every DT we bring in from turning into some 350 or 400 pound blob of fat.

If your car starts leaking oil, and you open the hood and thing that you\'ve got a busted hose, you replace it. If after you replace it the problem isn\'t fixed, maybe you try a new oil line one more time, in case the original was defective. After that, you try to address the problem by looking for other root causes, you don\'t just keep replacing the oil line and suggesting that each previous hose was defective. That\'s my point. It\'s about time Haslett looks to address the overweight DT problem in some other way than bringing in new ones and hoping that they stay slim in the offseason.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


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he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 05-11-2004, 11:35 AM   #35
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

WhoDat --

Isn\'t it true that the ONLY player to have a real weight problem was Grady Jackson? Not Normand Hand, Kenny Smith, or any of the other defensive tackles. Isn\'t it true that we didn\'t get rid of Norman Hand because of a weight problem? Isn\'t it true that we got rid of Hand because we wanted to go in a different direction?

Isn\'t it also true that it isn\'t unusual for defensive tackles to gain some weight during the off-season? Isn\'t it true that a lot of \'em usually lose that weight by the time training camp rolls around? Isn\'t it also true that training camp hasn\'t even started yet and the media and YOU are making much more of this than what it is?

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by GumboBC]
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Old 05-11-2004, 12:20 PM   #36
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

For starters, Hand was shipped out of town b/c he gained weight which made him less effective. The official reason can be classified as poor play, but it resulted from his weight gain. You think those guys were nicknamed the \"Lunch Bunch\" for no reason?


Secondly Billy, you should have learned by now. Is this weight problem being inflated? Maybe... I might even say probably if you look at it only this year. Of course, when weight issues have been a concern for a long time now, maybe not. Maybe it\'s a sign that nothing has changed.

More importantly, how quickly you forget. Last off-season I made comments about the offense slipping, special teams not being so special, and the defense only getting slightly better. You called me insane. Remember how things turned out? Let me remind you.

I think WhoDat was right in a lot of areas in his predictions. He said there was not enough quality free agents signed on defense. He was right. This defense has played better in some games, but in other games they look like the same pathetic defense. There is still a severe lack of talent on defense and as starange as it may sound, I think Venturi has done a pretty good job with this defense, with all things considered, but he still isn\'t a top D coordinator.

WhoDat said that the offense would not be as productive this year. Right again. We clearly have one of the best running backs in the league but we are lacking talent in other areas on offense. But we have the talent on offense to play MUCH better than we have.

On special teams I don\'t know what the deal is there. Just another unit that has not lived up to expectations.

Now, I\'m not suggesting that you take everything I say as fact. However, you might want to remember that I do know a thing or two about this team. Maybe I am inflating the issue - it certainly may turn out to be nothing. However, after years of weight problems, to suggest that a DT we spent two first rounders on in a year where we were totally revamping our defense showing up to camp overweight in his second year is no big deal seems either foolish or wishful. You\'re right Billy, it may turn out to be nothing. Of course, to dismiss it as nothing at this point seems pretty dumb to me.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 05-11-2004, 12:31 PM   #37
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

First of all, I hear you bashing Haslett about wanting to get bigger on D-line and then Haslett changing his mind that he wanted to get smaller. Now, you\'re saying that Haslett didn\'t get rid of Hand because he wanted to get smaller at the position, he got rid of Hand because he couldn\'t control his weight. Well, you can\'t ride both sides of the fence, WhoDat. Pick one side and criticize him for that. Which one is it? It seems to me that you\'ll use both if it helps promote your dislike for Haslett.

Second, I\'m not saying that Sullivans weight isn\'t an issue. It is. But, I\'m not going to get overly concerned about it before camp even starts and try to suggest this is a poor reflection on Haslett. I look at it like this, WhoDat -- Haslett found out about Sullivan\'s weight problem way before training camp started and is addressing it NOW to make sure Sully reports to camp in shape.

Thrid -- You were ONE of the few folks I heard last year that said our offense would struggle. Why did you think it would struggle and do you think it will struggle this year? You were right about the defense, I give you credit for that. I was optimisic about it myself, but I was wrong.

]

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by GumboBC]
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:31 PM   #38
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

Billy, how you love to muddy the water.

1. Haslett got rid of Hand b/c his performance suffered after Hand\'s weight became a problem.

2. Haslett did not choose to get smaller at d-line. He chose to get faster (something most fat-a$$es aren\'t) on defense in general.

3. I didn\'t criticize Haslett\'s plan to get faster. It is a good one, as I have stated before.

4. I HAVE criticized the personnel that Haslett brought in to fulfill his plan to get faster. I have also criticized Haslett\'s seeming inability to stick to a plan for any great period of time. Criticizing execution of a plan is different than criticizing the plan itself Bill -- you\'re a smart guy I\'m sure you understand the difference.

As to this year, it\'s early and hard to tell at this point.

When I look at our talent I am optimistic. I think Deuce will have another good year, though maybe not as statistically good as last year. That will probably be a result of improved performance in the passing game. Brooks SHOULD be a Pro Bowler this year, and our receivers should be flat dangerous. Our offense should be better than last year - fewer stalled drives and more TDs.

On D I think we\'ll get better but still get beaten by teams with a solid running game that can keep us off balance. I hope that we attack more. If our D-line stays healthy they should be better. Our LBs can only go up. Corner and safety are concerns.

Special teams will get better if, and only if, Al Everest learns how to run a middle wedge. Lewis\' sideline to sideline returns last year weren\'t a function of his fear. They were called plays - just watch the tape and you will see the wedge always setup outside. That may have had something to do with how shallow we were at WR and the coaching staff\'s decision to protect one of its few remaining healthy receivers.

I think our team is talented but question marks and holes still, as of right now, exist at MLB, DT, and CB... and safety. Otherwise, we have great talent that is capable of going to the Super Bowl.

On the flip side, I think our schedule looks tough and I am not very impressed with our coaching staff. Another .500 season is not out of the question. While I do like our personnel, with the exception of a few spots, I am unhappy with our coach (shocker).

If I was forced to wager a guess right now I would say 10-6 and a wildcard spot for the upcoming season. Some might be happy with that; I am always happy when we make the playoffs. Still, I think given our current coaching staff that is about the best our team is capable of performing and at 10-6 they still may be underacheiving. I would love to see this team succeed. I would love to see Haslett prove me totally wrong. Until that happens, I will cheer on Sundays and continue to believe that given a better coach, this team could be Super Bowl bound in one year, if not this year.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:34 PM   #39
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

I\'m bout to run to the store anybody need som knee pads or Chap stick or gatoraide? Must be trusty from all that spinning!


Haz and co. deveoping the talent in Nawlins

Good Article on Haslett from 2000

Haslett says: Cie Grant is the clear starter entering camp.



Haslett answers questions. Says Saints are one of the best teams in NFL.



Whodat, this team would have to do more than miss the playoffs for these two start thinking Haslett isn\'t the right guy. Oh yeah, didn\'t you see the train coming off the tracks last year before a great many of people? Who saw it last? Ie Week 16

Nuff said, not wasting time or energy dragging the horses
I think I\'ve been pretty unbiased in my assessment of Haslett. Maybe you FEEL or THINK Haslett needs to go. Maybe you have the answers Gator. I don\'t. I have some answers, but not all. I could be wrong and Haslett might fail. You could be wrong and Haslett might succeed? Of course, when you simply close your mind then you aren\'t willing to look at anyone\'s side but your own. I think WhoDat has made some very good points on Haslett and I\'ve taken everything he\'s said into consideration. He has changed my mind about some and some he hasn\'t. But, WhoDat doesn\'t simply say that Haslett sucks....Nuff said. He states very good reasons why he feels the way he does.

I\'ve said ON THIS THREAD that if Haslett fails this year that I\'ll be calling for him to go. I said I can even see a case where this team makes the playoffs and I\'d still want Haslett gone. In my eyes that\'s fair.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:47 PM   #40
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Saints' former first-rounder Sullivan overweight

Sorry Billy. I know you\'re very fair.


Let\'s hear that case.


I said I can even see a case where this team makes the playoffs and I\'d still want Haslett gone. In my eyes that\'s fair.
Here\'s one example: If we go to the playoffs and lose the game against a less talented team. Or, if I feel coaching was the reason we lost the game.
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