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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Man I love a good smoke and mirror analysis ...... This one is good ......... No smoke and mirrors here, 08. When someone closes their mind and only believes what they want to believe, then you\'ll never learn anything Some ...

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Old 05-15-2004, 11:29 PM   #11
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

Man I love a good smoke and mirror analysis ......
This one is good .........
No smoke and mirrors here, 08. When someone closes their mind and only believes what they want to believe, then you\'ll never learn anything


Some may want to say look how our defense has underachieved , but considering the higher salaries counting against the cap , looks like someone else has too.....
I ALWAYS notice something about the information you bring to the table, 08.

1. You make statements and you don\'t support them with facts!!
Example: You say more money is invested in our offense than our defense. Are you sure about that? How many number 1 draft picks do we have on our offense? How many on our defense? Maybe you need to look at how much money Tebucky, Sullivan, and Howard makes. Maybe the offense does count against the cap more. I don\'t know the exact dollars and I don\'t think you do either.........

I\'d be willing to bet it\'s awfully close in terms of dollars.

Besides, that has nothing to do with what I\'m talking about. Those teams that are geared more towards offense simply have better defenses than us. You don\'t think so???


[Edited on 16/5/2004 by GumboBC]
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Old 05-16-2004, 04:11 AM   #12
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

2003 Kansas City - 29th/19th/4th
2002 Saints - 27th/26th/4th

Co-leaders in fumble recoveries that year: Grady Jackson and Charlie Clemmons with 3.
Co-leader in interceptions that year: Sammie Knight with 5.
What I\'m trying to say is: a) The only stat that counts is the scoring defense (and finally the W-L stat) and b) they did consciously made a decision to give up some turn-overs for better all around play.
For Billy: On the one hand you say you want to see our defense attack non-stop, on the other you say the defense is already too complicated. Do you think 10 new blitz packages will lead to our linebackers being out of position less? The defense should be more aggressive (and with the new front 4 they will be), but not to the point where they overrun half the plays.
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Old 05-16-2004, 10:21 AM   #13
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

2003 Kansas City - 29th/19th/4th
2002 Saints - 27th/26th/4th
What I\'m trying to say is: a) The only stat that counts is the scoring defense (and finally the W-L stat)
no_cloning -
I think it\'s a well known fact that turnovers are one of the MOST IMPORTANT stats in football. Turnovers probably cost teams more games than anything else.

IMO, where you went wrong in your analysis is you\'re looking at \"scoring defense\" ONLY and not taking into account this:

When a defense creates a turnover, it gives the offense an opportunity to score. That can overcome some points they may have allowed. If they give up a TD and then they recover the ball deep inside the opponents territory, then it gives our offense a much better chance of scoring than having to drive the entire length of the field.

For Billy: On the one hand you say you want to see our defense attack non-stop, on the other you say the defense is already too complicated. Do you think 10 new blitz packages will lead to our linebackers being out of position less? The defense should be more aggressive (and with the new front 4 they will be), but not to the point where they overrun half the plays.
First of all I did NOT say I wanted to see our defense play attack NON-STOP. I do, however, want to see them blitz MORE. If an offense is going to beat my defense, then they will have to do it with my defense attacking. I would not allow an offense to dictate to me what they are going to do....
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Old 05-16-2004, 11:52 AM   #14
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

1. You make statements and you don\'t support them with facts!!
Example: You say more money is invested in our offense than our defense. Are you sure about that? How many number 1 draft picks do we have on our offense? How many on our defense? Maybe you need to look at how much money Tebucky, Sullivan, and Howard makes. Maybe the offense does count against the cap more. I don\'t know the exact dollars and I don\'t think you do either.........

I\'d be willing to bet it\'s awfully close in terms of dollars.
Don\'t worry GumboBC , I am more then willing to work with you on this to help you see the light .....

Since some putz did not update the site we wll have to work with the 2002 salaries and add and subtract for the 2003 season . So the fairness of this will be , only contracts in affect for the 2003 season . Since Howard was franchised after the season ended he counts only as his total salary .

So you get to add Tebucky and Sullivan and I get to add Gandy and Conwell .

Shall we open that closed mind ????......

2002 / New Orleans Saints

Player Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
Allen, James $ 225,000 $ 481,000 $ 0 $ 706,000 $ 385,333 LB
Bellamy, Jay $ 700,000 $ 0 $ 200,000 $ 900,000 $ 1,050,000 S
Bentley, LeCharles $ 225,000 $ 1,550,000 $ 0 $ 1,775,000 $ 612,500 OL
Brooks, Aaron $ 750,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 4,140 $ 5,754,140 $ 1,587,473 QB
Brown, Fakhir $ 375,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 352,941 $ 352,941 CB
Carney, John $ 300,000 $ 475,000 $ 1,080 $ 776,080 $ 476,080 K
Carroll, Travis $ 225,000 $ 6,000 $ 0 $ 231,000 $ 228,000 LB
Carter, Dale $ 650,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 0 $ 3,305,882 $ 734,453 CB
Chase, Martin $ 452,000 $ 123,000 $ 25,000 $ 600,000 $ 538,500 DT
Clemons, Charlie $ 1,100,000 $ 0 $ 100,000 $ 1,200,000 $ 1,700,000 LB
Cox, Bryan $ 750,000 $ 25,000 $ 720 $ 775,720 $ 475,720 LB
Craver, Keyuo $ 225,000 $ 273,250 $ 0 $ 498,250 $ 316,083 CB
Delhomme, Jake $ 563,000 $ 0 $ 4,050 $ 567,050 $ 567,050 QB
Fenderson, James $ 300,000 $ 2,500 $ 450 $ 302,950 $ 301,700 RB
Folau, Spencer $ 525,000 $ 200,000 $ 25,000 $ 750,000 $ 650,000 OL
Fontenot, Jerry $ 1,450,000 $ 0 $ 50,000 $ 1,500,000 $ 2,143,250 OL
Gleason, Steve $ 375,000 $ 0 $ 4,320 $ 379,320 $ 379,320 S
Gowin, Toby $ 490,000 $ 35,000 $ 1,440 $ 526,440 $ 451,440 P
Grant, Charles $ 255,000 $ 1,800,000 $ 300,000 $ 2,355,000 $ 855,000 DE
Hall, Lamont $ 563,000 $ 0 $ 4,230 $ 567,230 $ 567,230 TE
Hand, Norman $ 3,000,000 $ 0 $ 200,000 $ 3,200,000 $ 4,575,000 DT
Hawthorne, Michael $ 375,000 $ 0 $ 4,140 $ 379,140 $ 395,806 CB
Hodge, Sedrick $ 300,000 $ 0 $ 4,230 $ 304,230 $ 475,896 LB
Holden, Curtis $ 300,000 $ 0 $ 4,320 $ 304,320 $ 304,320 LB
Horn, Joe $ 1,700,000 $ 0 $ 300,000 $ 2,000,000 $ 3,212,500 WR
Houser, Kevin $ 375,000 $ 75,000 $ 28,960 $ 478,960 $ 438,460 TE
Howard, Darren $ 510,000 $ 0 $ 51,440 $ 561,440 $ 847,440 DE
Irvin, Ken $ 450,000 $ 200,000 $ 720 $ 650,720 $ 450,720 CB
Jackson, Grady $ 525,000 $ 750,000 $ 2,520 $ 1,277,520 $ 902,520 DT
Jacox, Kendyl $ 525,000 $ 325,000 $ 720 $ 850,720 $ 590,720 OL
Jones, JJ $ 225,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 185,294 $ 185,294 LB
Keaton, Curtis $ 375,000 $ 300,000 $ 0 $ 675,000 $ 375,000 RB
Knight, Roger $ 225,000 $ 0 $ 4,320 $ 229,320 $ 229,320 LB
Lewis, Derrick $ 225,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 26,471 $ 26,471 WR
Lewis, Michael $ 300,000 $ 0 $ 23,960 $ 323,960 $ 323,960 WR
McAfee, Fred $ 750,000 $ 0 $ 3,420 $ 753,420 $ 453,420 RB
McAllister, Deuce $ 320,000 $ 0 $ 50,000 $ 370,000 $ 1,030,000 RB
Miller, Bubba $ 525,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 216,176 $ 185,294 OL
Mitchell, Mel $ 225,000 $ 115,500 $ 0 $ 340,500 $ 263,500 S
O\'Sullivan, JT $ 225,000 $ 68,000 $ 0 $ 293,000 $ 247,666 QB
Pathon, Jerome $ 525,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 2,070 $ 1,527,070 $ 777,070 WR
Reed, Jake $ 300,000 $ 625,000 $ 1,350 $ 926,350 $ 926,350 WR
Riley, Victor $ 525,000 $ 100,000 $ 0 $ 594,118 $ 677,451 OL
Sanderson, Scott $ 525,000 $ 25,000 $ 0 $ 550,000 $ 475,000 OL
Sloan, David $ 650,000 $ 1,200,000 $ 3,060 $ 1,853,060 $ 953,060 TE
Smith, Darrin $ 1,200,000 $ 0 $ 4,230 $ 1,204,230 $ 1,616,730 LB
Smith, Kenny $ 300,000 $ 0 $ 4,320 $ 304,320 $ 458,486 DT
Smith, Terrelle $ 375,000 $ 0 $ 4,140 $ 379,140 $ 480,806 RB
Stallworth, Donte\' $ 325,000 $ 2,900,000 $ 400,000 $ 3,625,000 $ 1,208,333 WR
Thomas, Fred $ 750,000 $ 0 $ 200,000 $ 950,000 $ 1,250,000 CB
Turley, Kyle $ 1,224,000 $ 0 $ 1,186,147 $ 2,410,147 $ 3,370,147 OL
Whitehead, Willie $ 563,000 $ 0 $ 3,600 $ 566,600 $ 566,600 DE
Williams, Boo $ 300,000 $ 0 $ 4,320 $ 304,320 $ 304,320 TE
Williams, Wally $ 750,000 $ 1,250,000 $ 2,790 $ 1,826,319 $ 3,200,651 OL



[Edited on 16/5/2004 by saintz08]

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo
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Old 05-16-2004, 12:09 PM   #15
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

Don\'t worry GumboBC , I am more then willing to work with you on this to help you see the light .....

Since some putz did not update the site we wll have to work with the 2002 salaries and add and subtract for the 2003 season . So the fairness of this will be , only contracts in affect for the 2003 season . Since Howard was franchised after the season ended he counts only as his base salary .

So you get to add Tebucky and Sullivan and I get to add Gandy and Conwell .

Shall we open that closed mind ????......
08 --

I found those numbers last night. I couldn\'t find any for 2003 either. You think I\'m going to add those numbers up?? NOT!! :P You made the statement, 08, you add \'em up and prove your point.

The only thing I was saying to begin was the OBVIOUS. Which is: Our defense is really hurting this teams chances of making the playoffs. We weren\'t good in any of the 3-most important catorgories for a defense(total defense, points allowed, turnovers)

I think the stats for ALL of the playoff teams shows that a good defense beats a good offense. Not always, but more times than not.

I don\'t know what you\'re trying to prove. Well............yeah I do. You\'re trying to pin our problems on Brooks (no surprise there!)

Do you want me to beleive if Brooks completion percentage were a few points higher that we would be super bowl bound??

Go add up them salary cap numbers for the offense and defense and let me know how it comes out.... :P


[Edited on 16/5/2004 by GumboBC]
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Old 05-16-2004, 05:02 PM   #16
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

Go add up them salary cap numbers for the offense and defense and let me know how it comes out....
The defensive payout was :

$ 21,761,747.00

The offensive payout was :

$ 31,199,601.00

That is a 10 million dollar difference ....

Now while the defensive standings are in the same range as the following teams according to you ....

Seattle - 18th/15th/14th
Green Bay - 16th/ 11th/10th
Philly - 19th/ 7th/18th
St. Louis - 15th/17th/1st
Kansas City - 29th/19th/4th
Saints/17th/16th/17th

Could the Saints defense at that point have gotten the Saints into the play offs ??

5 of the 12 teams had defenses comparable to the Saints .

Could the Saints have done it with a low percentage completion ??

Only 1 of 12 teams did .....

Green Bay - 65.4
Kansas City - 63.1
Seattle - 61.0
St.Louis - 63.2
Philadelphia - 57.5
New Orleans - 59.1

I\'ve always thought the main reason we haven\'t been to the playoffs the last few years was because of our defense.
Odds are better on 5 of 12 , then 1 of 12 aren\'t they ??? .....


\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo
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Old 05-16-2004, 05:15 PM   #17
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

Ok, 08. You have me convinced. Brooks needs to raise his completion percentage in order for us to make the playoffs.

Let\'s hope our receivers can hold on to the dang ball this year and Brooks completion percentage might get there.
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Old 05-16-2004, 05:46 PM   #18
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

Let\'s hope our receivers can hold on to the dang ball this year and Brooks completion percentage might get there.
Glad you mentioned that , let\'s look and see if those same teams with comparable defenses were affected by dropped passes ....

Green Bay - 65.4
Kansas City - 63.1
Seattle - 61.0
St.Louis - 63.2
Philadelphia - 57.5
New Orleans - 59.1

Dropped Passes

Green Bay - 19
Kansas City - 40
Seattle - 41
St.Louis - 19
Philadelphia - 31
New Orleans - 26

Amazing , 3 of those 6 teams had more dropped passes the the Saints and still made the play offs ...




[Edited on 16/5/2004 by saintz08]
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Old 05-16-2004, 05:48 PM   #19
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

Let\'s hope our receivers can hold on to the dang ball this year and Brooks completion percentage might get there.
Glad you mentioned that , let\'s look and see if those same teams with comparable defenses were affected by dropped passes ....

Green Bay - 65.4
Kansas City - 63.1
Seattle - 61.0
St.Louis - 63.2
Philadelphia - 57.5
New Orleans - 59.1

Dropped Passes

Green Bay - 19
Kansas City - 40
Seattle - 41
St.Louis - 19
Philadelphia - 31
New Orleans - 26

Amazing , 3 of those 6 teams had more dropped passes the the Saints and still made the play offs .
I\'m gonna have to ask for a link to those stats, 08. As far as I know there are no \"official\" stats for dropped passes. Got a link?
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Old 05-17-2004, 12:24 AM   #20
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Why we haven't made the playoffs and why we will.

I\'m gonna have to ask for a link to those stats, 08. As far as I know there are no \"official\" stats for dropped passes. Got a link?
Sure do . But gotta warn you , you are gonna have to bring your wallet . They are the official provider of stats to the N.F.L. ... So pony on up to the cashier window and come play with the inquiring minds that want to know......

http://www.stats.com/football.asp
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