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Depth Defined

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Pat Kirwan, senior analyst at NFL.com, writes in his 06/04/2004 article what he defines as DEPTH required on an NFL roster to go deep into the post season. He lists 12 areas required. He also states " A successful NFL ...

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Old 06-07-2004, 08:13 PM   #1
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Depth Defined

Pat Kirwan, senior analyst at NFL.com, writes in his 06/04/2004 article what he defines as DEPTH required on an NFL roster to go deep into the post season. He lists 12 areas required. He also states " A successful NFL season is a combination of talent, luck and depth". Does anyone want to open up the LUCK thread debate again? For now, let's look at his 12 area spots and see how our Saints look (fyi...He did not list Saints as a team having it)

"With depth in mind, lets look at the NFL from two perspectives: One, the teams with enough quality depth to have an advantage when the injuries start to hit the rosters in August; and two, the most vulnerable situations in the NFL.

When I look at the quality of depth, the criteria is narrow. Veterans -- not rookies -- who can come in and perform with limited practice time are very important. Here's what constitutes excellent depth on offense:

A backup quarterback with a proven record of winning.
A third wide receiver who can play well in the three-receiver package and step into the lineup as the starter for a month and be productive.
A second tight end who can create personnel grouping problems for opposing defenses and has the ability to bring an extra dimension to the offense that the starter (Ernie Conwell) doesn't have.
At least two veteran offensive linemen with no less than 10 career starts each under their belt.
A backup running back who can give you 80 to 100 yards a week until the starter returns. I like a guy who has done it before at least once or twice.
On defense:

A pass rush specialist or third defensive end.
A third defensive tackle so the starters can rotate.
An excellent third corner to play nickel defense.
A third safety to get into dime defenses.
A backup "mike" (middle) linebacker to call the defenses and line people up.
A special teams difference maker.
And throw in at least one assistant coach with head coaching experience to help the boss.
Great depth is having a quality player at all 12 spots. To get into late January, most teams will have to tap into all 12 to make it."

For the complete article: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7397758

IMO we have Talent and Depth and hopefully this year we will be blessed with a lot of Luck!

DEPTH:

Offense

1. Our backup quarterback has seen very limited playing time thus far in his career but has shined when he was called on to start for a then injured Daunte Culpepper as a Viking.

2. We have an experienced 3rd wide receiver or two who can play well in the 3 WR package and if called on to do so, as a #2, (Pathon and Crowell) and can do so (as they both have in the past) for at least a month.

3. We have a 2nd TE (Eddie "Boo" Williams) and maybe even a 3RD TE (Zach "Pear-Ass" Hilton) who can create personnel grouping problems for opposing defenses and has the ability to bring an extra dimension to the offense that the starter doesn't have.

4. You need at least 2 veteran offensive linemen with no less than 10 career starts under their belts. At least 3 linemen easily fit that descripition (Fontenot, Folau, and Nesbit)

5. A veteran backup running back who can give you 80 to 100 yards per week until your starter comes back, a guy that has done it at least once or twice (Lamar Smith).

Defense

6. A pass rush specialist or 3rd defensive end (after starters Darren Howard and Charles Grant we have the following players at DE: Willie Whitehead, Melvin Williams, and rookie Will Smith).

7. A third defensive tackle so the starters can rotate (Kenny Smith, Kendrick Allen, and rookie Rodney Leisle).

8. An excellent 3rd corner to play nickel (Ashley Ambrose - he's been getting some knocks lately from fans who want an upgrade but keep in mind that AA has found the starting lineup his entire career on every team he has played on).

9. A third safety to get into the dime defenses. The Saints have already said they intend on playing a third safety (Jay Bellamy) in the dime package.

10. A backup "mike" middle linebacker to call defenses and line people up (Orlando Ruff and Darin Smith).

11. A special teams difference maker ( M. Lewis).

12. Here's the wild card.....Throw in at least one assistant coach with head coaching experience (Rick Venturi) to help the boss.

Forget January. Here's looking forward to next February!




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Old 06-07-2004, 09:48 PM   #2
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Depth Defined

We have a 2nd TE (Eddie \"Boo\" Williams) and maybe even a 3RD TE (Zach \"Pear-Ass\" Hilton) who can create personnel grouping problems for opposing defenses and has the ability to bring an extra dimension to the offense that the starter doesn\'t have.


Zach Pear-Ass Hilton... too funny, very creative...

Can\'t wait to tell him that one!!

Tom (fat-ass) Hilton
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Old 06-08-2004, 12:55 AM   #3
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Depth Defined

When I look at the quality of depth, the criteria is narrow. Veterans -- not rookies -- who can come in and perform with limited practice time are very important. Here\'s what constitutes excellent depth on offense:
...
On defense:

A pass rush specialist or third defensive end.
A third defensive tackle so the starters can rotate.
An excellent third corner to play nickel defense.
A third safety to get into dime defenses.
A backup \"mike\" (middle) linebacker to call the defenses and line people up.
A special teams difference maker.
And throw in at least one assistant coach with head coaching experience to help the boss.
Great depth is having a quality player at all 12 spots. To get into late January, most teams will have to tap into all 12 to make it.\"

For the complete article: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7397758

IMO we have Talent and Depth and hopefully this year we will be blessed with a lot of Luck!

DEPTH:
Defense

6. A pass rush specialist or 3rd defensive end (after starters Darren Howard and Charles Grant we have the following players at DE: Willie Whitehead, Melvin Williams, and rookie Will Smith).

7. A third defensive tackle so the starters can rotate (Kenny Smith, Kendrick Allen, and rookie Rodney Leisle).

8. An excellent 3rd corner to play nickel (Ashley Ambrose - he\'s been getting some knocks lately from fans who want an upgrade but keep in mind that AA has found the starting lineup his entire career on every team he has played on).

9. A third safety to get into the dime defenses. The Saints have already said they intend on playing a third safety (Jay Bellamy) in the dime package.

10. A backup \"mike\" middle linebacker to call defenses and line people up (Orlando Ruff and Darin Smith).

11. A special teams difference maker ( M. Lewis).

12. Here\'s the wild card.....Throw in at least one assistant coach with head coaching experience (Rick Venturi) to help the boss.

Forget January. Here\'s looking forward to next February!
Ok SaintNik, I think I agree with you on every point on offense, but defense is where the problems begin. Notice that Kirwan says \"not rookies\" for depth.

Thus,
(6) I really like Willie, but I\'m not sure he is a pass rush specialist - and I\'m not sure that he constitutes a real threat for a whole game if the starters get hurt. Smith and Williams count as rookies (one of them is, the other is almost), so are not contenders for Kirwan\'s \"DEPTH\" criterion. I like our guys here, but they hardly constitute good depth, since they are relatively unproven.

(7) None of the DTs you listed count as a vetran who can step in and start (Smith perhaps, but the others are not vetrans). Thus, we don\'t meet the criterion here either, though we may have some reason to feel good about this too.

(8) I agree with you here; AA is a fine third CB.

(9) I must have missed something here. Who are the starters at S then? Tebucky and ? Bellamy is great for the dime package, but only if we have two other starters.

(10) If D. Smith were three years younger, I would agree. I don\'t think he can start anymore - he just won\'t be able to go the whole game. Ruff... just no. We don\'t have depth here.

(11) There are too many questions about M. Lewis\' play last year to believe that he is still (or can be again) a difference maker. I would have said Gleason, but I don\'t know how much difference he really makes on ST. I\'d have to say we get a question mark here too.

(12) Ok.

Thus, I very much enjoyed this post; I think it gives us good reason to be positive, but if we\'re really going to use Kirwan\'s criterion, I don\'t think we can say we do have depth on defense. I certainly like your suggestions that we have reason to think we WILL, but I just think that it is too early to be excited about depth on our D. Of course, depth on O, we really do seem to have!

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 06-08-2004, 05:34 AM   #4
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Depth Defined

i think the main thing a few complain about is the lack of proven veterans, not for just this team, but any.
well, another yr has gone by and that basically means one thing, another yr of experience earned............and really and truely, the only way to get it......playing...
and luck, well, don\'t get me started..................swamee
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Old 06-08-2004, 08:56 AM   #5
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Depth Defined

[quote:82ec829c33]


9. A third safety to get into the dime defenses. The Saints have already said they intend on playing a third safety (Jay Bellamy) in the dime package.



11. A special teams difference maker ( M. Lewis).

------------------------------------------------------

Thus,


(9) I must have missed something here. Who are the starters at S then? Tebucky and ? Bellamy is great for the dime package, but only if we have two other starters.



(11) There are too many questions about M. Lewis\' play last year to believe that he is still (or can be again) a difference maker. I would have said Gleason, but I don\'t know how much difference he really makes on ST. I\'d have to say we get a question mark here too.

(12) Ok.
Concerning the Safety positions I think they are penciling in Mel Mitchell.

And special teams , while I like Lewis, Devery Henderson may beat him out at that spot. Even though he is a rookie.
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Old 06-08-2004, 01:06 PM   #6
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Depth Defined

B&Gs own Jarrod Breaux on 06.07.04 writes in the Super Saints Weekly:

\"This year though, should be different for the Saints due to several reasons, but most importantly because of the added depth to the club.\"

\"This year the Saints organization focused their attention on adding depth to every position that they could afford in preparation for possible injuries.\"

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...rder=1&thold=0
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Old 06-08-2004, 01:30 PM   #7
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Depth Defined

JKOOL......Thanks for the nice comments and your reply. I may have been a bit liberal on the defensive side of the ball but it could be acceptable.

Rookies were not counted towards depth in the articles evaluation but it did not say that a rookie could not be a starter with a veteran backing him up for depth.

6. Willie may not be a pass rush \"specialist\" but he has shown he can do it. Melvin Williams may not be a seasoned veteran but he is no longer a rookie. What if Will Smith is designated the starter over Charles Grant and Grant is your 3rd DE. Trust me. We are OK at this position.

7. Both Kenny Smith and Kendrick Allen are now considered veterans and both have snaps under their belts.

9. Our starters are Tebucky Jones and Mel Mitchell. Bellamy is the 3rd safety. Bellamy was the perfect example of this description of depth last year as he was forced into the starting role after Mel Mitchell suffered a season ending injury in preseason.

10. If Darin Smith or Orlando Ruff (Ruff was the starter last year and may be again this year) make this squad they will be able to start and play an entire game. How effective they would be over the course of the whole season may be different. The critieria here is to be a solid veteran backup with experience capable of starting a few games while awaiting the return of the regular starter.

11. Michael Lewis no doubt had a drop off in production last year. Some of it probably was his fault. Much of it though was due to the fact that with all of the injuries we had early, which included several special team players, the cohesion of the ST unit was not there. It takes perfect execution on everybodys behalf in most cases for the returner to get a great or even decent return. We will start fresh this year and you can also a Stecker to the mix along with Donte\' Stallworth and Devery Henderson.

Just Chillin Checking Out The B&G Forum While Waiting For My Ship To Come In

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Old 06-08-2004, 05:50 PM   #8
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SaintNik,

Point well taken. Reason to be optimistic follows!
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Old 06-08-2004, 06:06 PM   #9
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Zach Pear-Ass Hilton... too funny, very creative...

Can\'t wait to tell him that one!!

Tom (fat-ass) Hilton
Brother, perhaps? Father, maybe?

This leads me to my next question. This is one of the bigger Saints fansites on the web, how often do you think players visit this site?
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Old 06-09-2004, 08:18 PM   #10
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I\'m Zach\'s dad... he is rarely on the internet much less on message boards... every once in a while, when he\'s home (which is not a lot)... he\'ll look over a site if I happen to have one open...

as for other players... I have no idea...

now me... I lurk most of the Saints boards...

fwiw...
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