2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction?

GumboBC · 06-22-2004, 02:11 PM

It's not much happening this time of year. Let's look at what's being told to us by the Saints organization and see what's fact or fiction.

1. No proven middle linebacker was brought in and the linebackers Haslett coveted were gone in the draft when the Saints picked. Now Haslett and co. are telling us that Courtney Watson and Cie Grant are the real deal and we'll see how good they are when they hit the field this season Cie Grant and Courtney are the real deal. Fact or Fiction?

2. Haslett and co. focus this year has been on getting high character guys. The Ravens have a few guys on their team that have shady pasts and it doesn't seem to affect them. As a matter of fact several teams have questionable character guys on their team and it's not hurting them. Winning seems to be a cure all for those team. High character guys will improve this team. Fact or ficton?

3. Haslett has taken a no-nosense approach to coaching this season. In the past couple of years he's let things slide and tried to be a players coach. Haslett's new approach will make a difference this year. Fact or Fiction?

4. John Pease was brought in as defensive line coach. He's being talked about as a guy that's going to get the underachievers to finally play up to their potenital. John Pease will make a big difference to the defensive line. Fact or Fiction?

5. It's being reported that Donte' Stallworth has finially matured and the injuries are a thing of the past. Donte' will finally stay healthy and be a big difference maker this year. Fact or Fiction?

6. Haslett says he is satisfied with the cornerbacks they have. The current CB's will get the job done. Fact or Fiction?

7. Haslett says the lack of player turnover is one of the keys to success this season. Other teams bring in more players each year and it's not that much of a problem. Low player turnover will help. Fact or Fiction?

[Edited on 22/6/2004 by GumboBC]

BlackandBlue · 06-22-2004, 03:12 PM

1. Fact- I\'ve been saying that Grant was the real deal, even before they drafted him. Watson is a nice compliment, what he lacks in athleticism to Grant, he makes up for it in the brains department- and I like a MLB with brains- big ole brains.

2. Fiction- talent wins throughout, as long as nobody is needlessly stirring the pot, I can live with a few off the field incidents every year.

3. Fiction- gonna change strokes in midstream? The players will sniff that one out, don\'t need me there to do it.

4. Fact- this is based solely on what I\'ve read on the guy, which I really hate basing my predictions on, but every place I look is high on this guy so...

5. No clue

6. Fiction- your starting four consists of one #2, and three reserves.

7. Fact- teams function better as a unit when they\'re accustomed to who they\'re playing with.

Danno · 06-22-2004, 04:41 PM

Watson is a nice compliment, what he lacks in athleticism to Grant, he makes up for it in the brains department- and I like a MLB with brains- big ole brains.

I\'m not so sure he lacks in the athleticism department to Grant. He had great combine numbers, and Grants combine numbers were at 225. Now that he\'s 245 would he still run a 4.5?
Anyway I agree with your assessment on Grant. He\'s gonna be the real deal. But it will be at WLB about week 6.

Danno · 06-22-2004, 04:54 PM

It\'s not much happening this time of year. Let\'s look at what\'s being told to us by the Saints organization and see what\'s fact or fiction.

[quote:afb3dbf968] 1. No proven middle linebacker was brought in and the linebackers Haslett coveted were gone in the draft when the Saints picked. Now Haslett and co. are telling us that Courtney Watson and Cie Grant are the real deal and we\'ll see how good they are when they hit the field this season Cie Grant and Courtney are the real deal. Fact or Fiction?

FACT-I believe they had Watson ranked #2-MLB and #1-OLB.
I think they landed a coveted LB.

2. Haslett and co. focus this year has been on getting high character guys. The Ravens have a few guys on their team that have shady pasts and it doesn\'t seem to affect them. As a matter of fact several teams have questionable character guys on their team and it\'s not hurting them. Winning seems to be a cure all for those team. High character guys will improve this team. Fact or ficton?

FACT- Sort of. They actually said they drafted talented guys who also had high character, So yes, a talented player of high caliber will help more than a talented guy with bad character.

3. Haslett has taken a no-nosense approach to coaching this season. In the past couple of years he\'s let things slide and tried to be a players coach. Haslett\'s new approach will make a difference this year. Fact or Fiction?

FACT-Sort of.
He was a no-nonsense coach in 2000 and it seemed to work pretty good. I\'m not sure its a new approach as much as it is him being fed up trying to be the easy going nice guy he was the last couple of years. Its something he\'s not.
I think no-nonsense is his true color.

4. John Pease was brought in as defensive line coach. He\'s being talked about as a guy that\'s going to get the underachievers to finally play up to their potenital. John Pease will make a big difference to the defensive line. Fact or Fiction?

FACT, without a doubt.

5. It\'s being reported that Donte\' Stallworth has finially matured and the injuries are a thing of the past. Donte\' will finally stay healthy and be a big difference maker this year. Fact or Fiction?

If he stays healthy he will be a difference maker. But you could say that about several players on this team, including an over-glorified RB who\'s faded down the stretch just about every year he\'s been in the league.

6. Haslett says he is satisfied with the cornerbacks they have. The current CB\'s will get the job done. Fact or Fiction?

Fact-I doubt Haz is satisfied but I don\'t think he\'\'s as worried as us fans are. If healthy the current crop will be above average.

7. Haslett says the lack of player turnover is one of the keys to success this season. Other teams bring in more players each year and it\'s not that much of a problem. Low player turnover will help. Fact or Fiction?

??? I can\'t think of a single team in recent years that brought in more players on one side of the ball as starters as we did. What do you mean by other teams bring in MORE players each year?
Anyway I think not having to overhaul either side of the ball will help a young team. It will kill an old aging team like the Raiders last year, but it will help a team full of promising youngsters.

Some pretty loaded questions there Billy, did you get your \"Politician Weekly\" in the mail this morning?

GumboBC · 06-22-2004, 05:05 PM

??? I can\'t think of a single team in recent years that brought in more players on one side of the ball as starters as we did. What do you mean by other teams bring in MORE players each year?
Anyway I think not having to overhaul either side of the ball will help a young team. It will kill an old aging team like the Raiders last year, but it will help a team full of promising youngsters.

Some pretty loaded questions there Billy, did you get your \"Politician Weekly\" in the mail this morning?

What I meant is that many teams bring in more new players than what we did THIS year. I agree that we\'ve been in the top of the league in bringing in new players in the past.

I suppose my questions were slightly loaded. Actually, I think I tend to be too positive at times and I wanted to approach it from a different angle. That\'s all. That\'s all I was trying to do.

WhoDat · 06-22-2004, 10:01 PM

1. FACT - however they may not be the real deal THIS year, and they may not materialize with THIS coach.

2. FICTION - it certainly doesn\'t hurt, and may help team chemistry which is good, but without a true leader at coach and on the field it doesn\'t matter. The emergence of a couple of leaders (players) will help more.

3. FACT - actually, I don\'t know on this one. If his no-nonsense approach takes root and they eliminate the errors it will. Then again, I doubt it will take root. Nothing else he\'s done has worked like he planned, and good clean football just ain\'t Saints ball.

4. FICTION - Pease will help, A LOT. But the difference will be health and a TON of talent. Grant, Sullivan, Young, Howard, Whitehead, Smith, Smith, Leslie... look out.

5. FACT - I love the kid. He proves his value this year. He ends up leading the team in receiving yards, TDs, and plays over 20 and 40 yards.

6. FICTION - A good rush will keep them from being abused much of the time, but when teams need to pass, they will. When they keep players in and max protect, they\'ll shred that group.

7. FICTION - talent will help. We have talent. We could have found more in important positions but chose not to.

Damn, that was fun. Good post! I want some more of that.

whowatches · 06-23-2004, 09:56 AM

Good post. Good questions.

1. Cie Grant and Courtney are the real deal. Fact or Fiction?

Fact. Watson will be the real deal at MLB; Grant will be a playmaker at WLB, replacing Rodgers by mid-season.

2. High character guys will improve this team. Fact or ficton?

Fact. IF high character means not taking plays off, remaining in playing condition all seaon long, contributing to a team-first atmosphere and keeping your grubby hands outta other people\'s locker.

3. Haslett\'s new approach will make a difference this year. Fact or Fiction?

errr. Gotta go with fiction until I see him rattle the cage of a high-profile starter. Raggin\' on a rook and a pot-head fourth stringer ain\'t enough for me to declare Haz a taskmaster. I am hopefull, however, that he is and it will.

4. John Pease will make a big difference to the defensive line. Fact or Fiction?

Fact. No question. 100%

5. Donte\' will finally stay healthy and be a big difference maker this year. Fact or Fiction?

Fiction. Can\'t get excited until he shows me something.

6. Haslett says he is satisfied with the cornerbacks they have. The current CB\'s will get the job done. Fact or Fiction?

Fiction. Can\'t get excited until I see what Craft and Brown will bring this season.

7. Low player turnover will help. Fact or Fiction?

Fact. Absolutely. This one is a double-edged sword for Haz, though -- all his players, very little turnover, starters familiar with the system. Make or break, baby.

.02

WhoDat · 06-23-2004, 10:38 AM

Question - why are you confident that Pease will help if he hasn\'t proven anything for us yet, but you won\'t give the players credit until they produce? Not raggin\' ya, just noticed that and found it odd. Different standard for coaches?

whowatches · 06-23-2004, 11:21 AM

Question - why are you confident that Pease will help if he hasn\'t proven anything for us yet, but you won\'t give the players credit until they produce? Not raggin\' ya, just noticed that and found it odd. Different standard for coaches?

Good question. First off, I think that coaches have more impact on a team\'s success than players (This comment should spark plenty of debate).

Pease has a proven track record with us (86-94) and Jacksonville (95-02). He has experience as D-coordinator, line coach and assistant head coach. Also, Pease possesses a reputation as a disciplinarian, which fills a void lacking on our staff in recent seaons. Pease has more more experience than the players whose abiltity/potential I questioned put together. As a coach, he has the ability to affect many aspects of the game (ie. pass rush, stopping the run), whereas a player affects one part of one aspect at a time.

As far as Donte goes, all we have upon which to base our analyisis is the past two seasons. What have we heard this offseason which is that different from last year? Is Donte incredible when he is on the field? Yes. But distinguishing hyperbole from actuality is difficult with this regime. Do I hope Donte has fixed this problem? Sure. I cannot, however, go and pinch his hammies to see if they\'re tight (shaddup!), so I have to wait and see if he lasts past the third game.

Craft has had knee problems and will be learning a new system. The positives on him are that he has a chip on his shoulder fom being replaced because of injury in Jax, and he was cheap. Can\'t be loopy over him until I see whether he will hold up physically and grasp our D.

Brown looked good toward the end of last season. Was he peaking or rising? I dunno. Haven\'t seen enough of him to know, so I can\'t say that I\'m pleased with him being the number two or three guy.

All in all, my opinion is this: coaches implement systems and players learn and adapt to them. To me the hierarchy is obvious. The system trumps the individual unless the player is of the elite, top-tier HOF calibur.

Thanks for the question. You made me think. I\'ll be back when I\'ve reflected on this more. OOOMMM....

.02

whowatches · 06-23-2004, 12:01 PM

I just realized that I gave Watson and Grant (in question one) the benefit of the doubt while questioning Donte and our corners. In Watson\'s case, I plead optimism based on the incessant praise of my Notre Dame-loving friend who has completely sold me on this guy.

In all fairness to Donte, I must withdraw the comment on Cie Grant until he shows something on the field.

There. I feel better now.

06-22-2004, 02:11 PM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? It's not much happening this time of year. Let's look at what's being told to us by the Saints organization and see what's fact or fiction. 1. No proven middle linebacker was brought in and the linebackers Haslett coveted were gone in the draft when the Saints picked. Now Haslett and co. are telling us that Courtney Watson and Cie Grant are the real deal and we'll see how good they are when they hit the field this season Cie Grant and Courtney are the real deal. Fact or Fiction? 2. Haslett and co. focus this year has been on getting high character guys. The Ravens have a few guys on their team that have shady pasts and it doesn't seem to affect them. As a matter of fact several teams have questionable character guys on their team and it's not hurting them. Winning seems to be a cure all for those team. High character guys will improve this team. Fact or ficton? 3. Haslett has taken a no-nosense approach to coaching this season. In the past couple of years he's let things slide and tried to be a players coach. Haslett's new approach will make a difference this year. Fact or Fiction? 4. John Pease was brought in as defensive line coach. He's being talked about as a guy that's going to get the underachievers to finally play up to their potenital. John Pease will make a big difference to the defensive line. Fact or Fiction? 5. It's being reported that Donte' Stallworth has finially matured and the injuries are a thing of the past. Donte' will finally stay healthy and be a big difference maker this year. Fact or Fiction? 6. Haslett says he is satisfied with the cornerbacks they have. The current CB's will get the job done. Fact or Fiction? 7. Haslett says the lack of player turnover is one of the keys to success this season. Other teams bring in more players each year and it's not that much of a problem. Low player turnover will help. Fact or Fiction? [Edited on 22/6/2004 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-22-2004, 03:12 PM	#2
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? 1. Fact- I\'ve been saying that Grant was the real deal, even before they drafted him. Watson is a nice compliment, what he lacks in athleticism to Grant, he makes up for it in the brains department- and I like a MLB with brains- big ole brains. 2. Fiction- talent wins throughout, as long as nobody is needlessly stirring the pot, I can live with a few off the field incidents every year. 3. Fiction- gonna change strokes in midstream? The players will sniff that one out, don\'t need me there to do it. 4. Fact- this is based solely on what I\'ve read on the guy, which I really hate basing my predictions on, but every place I look is high on this guy so... 5. No clue 6. Fiction- your starting four consists of one #2, and three reserves. 7. Fact- teams function better as a unit when they\'re accustomed to who they\'re playing with.
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

06-22-2004, 04:41 PM	#3
Danno Site Donor 2014 Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,640	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? Watson is a nice compliment, what he lacks in athleticism to Grant, he makes up for it in the brains department- and I like a MLB with brains- big ole brains. I\'m not so sure he lacks in the athleticism department to Grant. He had great combine numbers, and Grants combine numbers were at 225. Now that he\'s 245 would he still run a 4.5? Anyway I agree with your assessment on Grant. He\'s gonna be the real deal. But it will be at WLB about week 6.

06-22-2004, 04:54 PM	#4
Danno Site Donor 2014 Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,640	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? It\'s not much happening this time of year. Let\'s look at what\'s being told to us by the Saints organization and see what\'s fact or fiction. [quote:afb3dbf968] 1. No proven middle linebacker was brought in and the linebackers Haslett coveted were gone in the draft when the Saints picked. Now Haslett and co. are telling us that Courtney Watson and Cie Grant are the real deal and we\'ll see how good they are when they hit the field this season Cie Grant and Courtney are the real deal. Fact or Fiction? FACT-I believe they had Watson ranked #2-MLB and #1-OLB. I think they landed a coveted LB. 2. Haslett and co. focus this year has been on getting high character guys. The Ravens have a few guys on their team that have shady pasts and it doesn\'t seem to affect them. As a matter of fact several teams have questionable character guys on their team and it\'s not hurting them. Winning seems to be a cure all for those team. High character guys will improve this team. Fact or ficton? FACT- Sort of. They actually said they drafted talented guys who also had high character, So yes, a talented player of high caliber will help more than a talented guy with bad character. 3. Haslett has taken a no-nosense approach to coaching this season. In the past couple of years he\'s let things slide and tried to be a players coach. Haslett\'s new approach will make a difference this year. Fact or Fiction? FACT-Sort of. He was a no-nonsense coach in 2000 and it seemed to work pretty good. I\'m not sure its a new approach as much as it is him being fed up trying to be the easy going nice guy he was the last couple of years. Its something he\'s not. I think no-nonsense is his true color. 4. John Pease was brought in as defensive line coach. He\'s being talked about as a guy that\'s going to get the underachievers to finally play up to their potenital. John Pease will make a big difference to the defensive line. Fact or Fiction? FACT, without a doubt. 5. It\'s being reported that Donte\' Stallworth has finially matured and the injuries are a thing of the past. Donte\' will finally stay healthy and be a big difference maker this year. Fact or Fiction? If he stays healthy he will be a difference maker. But you could say that about several players on this team, including an over-glorified RB who\'s faded down the stretch just about every year he\'s been in the league. 6. Haslett says he is satisfied with the cornerbacks they have. The current CB\'s will get the job done. Fact or Fiction? Fact-I doubt Haz is satisfied but I don\'t think he\'\'s as worried as us fans are. If healthy the current crop will be above average. 7. Haslett says the lack of player turnover is one of the keys to success this season. Other teams bring in more players each year and it\'s not that much of a problem. Low player turnover will help. Fact or Fiction? ??? I can\'t think of a single team in recent years that brought in more players on one side of the ball as starters as we did. What do you mean by other teams bring in MORE players each year? Anyway I think not having to overhaul either side of the ball will help a young team. It will kill an old aging team like the Raiders last year, but it will help a team full of promising youngsters. Some pretty loaded questions there Billy, did you get your \"Politician Weekly\" in the mail this morning?

06-22-2004, 05:05 PM	#5
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? ??? I can\'t think of a single team in recent years that brought in more players on one side of the ball as starters as we did. What do you mean by other teams bring in MORE players each year? Anyway I think not having to overhaul either side of the ball will help a young team. It will kill an old aging team like the Raiders last year, but it will help a team full of promising youngsters. Some pretty loaded questions there Billy, did you get your \"Politician Weekly\" in the mail this morning? What I meant is that many teams bring in more new players than what we did THIS year. I agree that we\'ve been in the top of the league in bringing in new players in the past. I suppose my questions were slightly loaded. Actually, I think I tend to be too positive at times and I wanted to approach it from a different angle. That\'s all. That\'s all I was trying to do.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

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06-22-2004, 10:01 PM	#6
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? 1. FACT - however they may not be the real deal THIS year, and they may not materialize with THIS coach. 2. FICTION - it certainly doesn\'t hurt, and may help team chemistry which is good, but without a true leader at coach and on the field it doesn\'t matter. The emergence of a couple of leaders (players) will help more. 3. FACT - actually, I don\'t know on this one. If his no-nonsense approach takes root and they eliminate the errors it will. Then again, I doubt it will take root. Nothing else he\'s done has worked like he planned, and good clean football just ain\'t Saints ball. 4. FICTION - Pease will help, A LOT. But the difference will be health and a TON of talent. Grant, Sullivan, Young, Howard, Whitehead, Smith, Smith, Leslie... look out. 5. FACT - I love the kid. He proves his value this year. He ends up leading the team in receiving yards, TDs, and plays over 20 and 40 yards. 6. FICTION - A good rush will keep them from being abused much of the time, but when teams need to pass, they will. When they keep players in and max protect, they\'ll shred that group. 7. FICTION - talent will help. We have talent. We could have found more in important positions but chose not to. Damn, that was fun. Good post! I want some more of that.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

06-23-2004, 09:56 AM	#7
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? Good post. Good questions. 1. Cie Grant and Courtney are the real deal. Fact or Fiction? Fact. Watson will be the real deal at MLB; Grant will be a playmaker at WLB, replacing Rodgers by mid-season. 2. High character guys will improve this team. Fact or ficton? Fact. IF high character means not taking plays off, remaining in playing condition all seaon long, contributing to a team-first atmosphere and keeping your grubby hands outta other people\'s locker. 3. Haslett\'s new approach will make a difference this year. Fact or Fiction? errr. Gotta go with fiction until I see him rattle the cage of a high-profile starter. Raggin\' on a rook and a pot-head fourth stringer ain\'t enough for me to declare Haz a taskmaster. I am hopefull, however, that he is and it will. 4. John Pease will make a big difference to the defensive line. Fact or Fiction? Fact. No question. 100% 5. Donte\' will finally stay healthy and be a big difference maker this year. Fact or Fiction? Fiction. Can\'t get excited until he shows me something. 6. Haslett says he is satisfied with the cornerbacks they have. The current CB\'s will get the job done. Fact or Fiction? Fiction. Can\'t get excited until I see what Craft and Brown will bring this season. 7. Low player turnover will help. Fact or Fiction? Fact. Absolutely. This one is a double-edged sword for Haz, though -- all his players, very little turnover, starters familiar with the system. Make or break, baby. .02
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06-23-2004, 10:38 AM	#8
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? Question - why are you confident that Pease will help if he hasn\'t proven anything for us yet, but you won\'t give the players credit until they produce? Not raggin\' ya, just noticed that and found it odd. Different standard for coaches?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

06-23-2004, 11:21 AM	#9
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? Question - why are you confident that Pease will help if he hasn\'t proven anything for us yet, but you won\'t give the players credit until they produce? Not raggin\' ya, just noticed that and found it odd. Different standard for coaches? Good question. First off, I think that coaches have more impact on a team\'s success than players (This comment should spark plenty of debate). Pease has a proven track record with us (86-94) and Jacksonville (95-02). He has experience as D-coordinator, line coach and assistant head coach. Also, Pease possesses a reputation as a disciplinarian, which fills a void lacking on our staff in recent seaons. Pease has more more experience than the players whose abiltity/potential I questioned put together. As a coach, he has the ability to affect many aspects of the game (ie. pass rush, stopping the run), whereas a player affects one part of one aspect at a time. As far as Donte goes, all we have upon which to base our analyisis is the past two seasons. What have we heard this offseason which is that different from last year? Is Donte incredible when he is on the field? Yes. But distinguishing hyperbole from actuality is difficult with this regime. Do I hope Donte has fixed this problem? Sure. I cannot, however, go and pinch his hammies to see if they\'re tight (shaddup!), so I have to wait and see if he lasts past the third game. Craft has had knee problems and will be learning a new system. The positives on him are that he has a chip on his shoulder fom being replaced because of injury in Jax, and he was cheap. Can\'t be loopy over him until I see whether he will hold up physically and grasp our D. Brown looked good toward the end of last season. Was he peaking or rising? I dunno. Haven\'t seen enough of him to know, so I can\'t say that I\'m pleased with him being the number two or three guy. All in all, my opinion is this: coaches implement systems and players learn and adapt to them. To me the hierarchy is obvious. The system trumps the individual unless the player is of the elite, top-tier HOF calibur. Thanks for the question. You made me think. I\'ll be back when I\'ve reflected on this more. OOOMMM.... .02
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575

06-23-2004, 12:01 PM	#10
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575	2004 Saints. Fact or Fiction? I just realized that I gave Watson and Grant (in question one) the benefit of the doubt while questioning Donte and our corners. In Watson\'s case, I plead optimism based on the incessant praise of my Notre Dame-loving friend who has completely sold me on this guy. In all fairness to Donte, I must withdraw the comment on Cie Grant until he shows something on the field. There. I feel better now.
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575

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